ViperInBlack
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John:
It would also be helpful if there was a Prospective Owners F.A.Q. on the site.
It would also be helpful if there was a Prospective Owners F.A.Q. on the site.
A Viper for the Ill-informed Public
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Chuck 98 RT/10
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Yeah, TC, AH, XYZ, smaller tires, less motor, and balloons blowing up all around the cockpit. But those things aren't the Viper experience.
Viperfreak2
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My first Viper was not an informed decision. I did not know of the Viper Club of America, a website, or even another Viper owner. I drove the Ferrari up to the dealer, asked to see the silver car in the showroom, and after fours hours of blah blah, paperwork, and waiting...I drove the car around a mall parking lot, with the 300+lb salesman wedged in the passenger seat. Then I went home.
I don't like to read. I like to think common sense will help me figure out how things work, like the recliner on the seats of a genII. However, all the research in the world and all the warnings about twitchy handling at the limit would be long gone with the first rush of adrenaline exploring the power of the snake. If I was a teen, even sooner. I came 6" from a guardrail one night after a corner I knew well, and from that night on had a healthy respect and fear for the car. You just can't learn these things from reading. A driving school where you can spin safely is the only way.
I don't like to read. I like to think common sense will help me figure out how things work, like the recliner on the seats of a genII. However, all the research in the world and all the warnings about twitchy handling at the limit would be long gone with the first rush of adrenaline exploring the power of the snake. If I was a teen, even sooner. I came 6" from a guardrail one night after a corner I knew well, and from that night on had a healthy respect and fear for the car. You just can't learn these things from reading. A driving school where you can spin safely is the only way.
ViperInBlack
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Let me ask two rhetorical questions to get this back on track (ahem):
a. Can a lawsuit be successful that seeks to demonstrate that the Viper is unsafe as it is now sold (Eg. no preparation)?
b. Can a liberal group of parents/spouses emerge that asks Congress to cease the manufacture of performance vehicles due to "their inherent risk factors, lack of safety standards and total inappropriateness for street use"?
It may be instructive to see how the family of the deceased teen responds to their loss.
In either case, for today's muscle cars, this is an area of ultimate vulnerability to the feds.
In toto, we have a responsibility to educate others and to take all reasonable steps to insure the vehicles are used safely and skillfully.
(This is precisely the legal battle that emerged over mandated helmet use).
a. Can a lawsuit be successful that seeks to demonstrate that the Viper is unsafe as it is now sold (Eg. no preparation)?
b. Can a liberal group of parents/spouses emerge that asks Congress to cease the manufacture of performance vehicles due to "their inherent risk factors, lack of safety standards and total inappropriateness for street use"?
It may be instructive to see how the family of the deceased teen responds to their loss.
In either case, for today's muscle cars, this is an area of ultimate vulnerability to the feds.
In toto, we have a responsibility to educate others and to take all reasonable steps to insure the vehicles are used safely and skillfully.
(This is precisely the legal battle that emerged over mandated helmet use).
PhoenixGTS
Enthusiast
a. I think now more so than ever due to electronic nanny technology. DC sells multiple 600+ hp AMG models, but they have state of the art technological nannies that keep them from behaving like a Viper. The product liability argument is that there were know safety devices available to DC that would solve a certain kind of accident, but they chose not to use them. Then it gets into a big argument that is roughly based on the state of the art, how the manufacturer analyzed the situation and their cost/benefit analysis (remember Ford making the decision that paying a certain number of large awards to those burned up in Pinto rear-end collisions was cheaper than recalling all of them to install a $50 panel that would have solved the problem?). What happens in the USA is that this kind of law is on a state level so you could end up with 50 different answers. This is what happened with air bags. Plaintiff's attorney filed tons of suits saying that the since the manufactures had air bags available for a decent price, not installing them rendered the car defective. Given the HUGE lobbying power of the auto industry, Congress stepped in and in exchange for blocking all such suits (via federal premption in the area of law), mandated the installation of air bags on a delayed basis saving the auto industry billions - but ultimately we have them. Same thing could happen with electronic nannies.
b. See above mention of how much lobbying clout the auto industry has for answer. If the industry can make millions selling certain target cars, then a citizen group is going to have a tough time getting anywhere in Washington, especially given the tort-reform sword rattlling of the Republicans who are in control.
luc
Enthusiast
Interesting thread, but the ultimate responsibilty is with the driver.
A brochure/warning stating that a 500hp car with no TC could be more of a handfull to drive than a 250hp car with all the "nanny aids"?
If you need someone to tell you that,you should also have to wear a sign that state: "Warning, only 1/2 my brain is working".
as for the Viper being such a "difficult" car to drive, I'm not sure what is that supposed to mean, obviously flooring the gas pedal in a turn can have a tragic outcome in a Viper, but don't your brain control your foot?
The real problem is not the car but the driver(s)lack of common sense and skills.
Luc 00GTS
A brochure/warning stating that a 500hp car with no TC could be more of a handfull to drive than a 250hp car with all the "nanny aids"?
If you need someone to tell you that,you should also have to wear a sign that state: "Warning, only 1/2 my brain is working".
as for the Viper being such a "difficult" car to drive, I'm not sure what is that supposed to mean, obviously flooring the gas pedal in a turn can have a tragic outcome in a Viper, but don't your brain control your foot?
The real problem is not the car but the driver(s)lack of common sense and skills.
Luc 00GTS
By my recollection, this approach to a suit involving a Viper was already attempted in California (where else!!!) a couple of years back...D-C brought in Bobby Unser to testify, winning over the jury in favor of Dodge.
By my recollection there was a "similar concept" suit covered in AutoWeek in 1984 in So. Cal. involving an allegded DUI/speeding driver, death of a passenger, and the infamous first generation Porsche 930 Turbo (with "poisonous" handling per one Porsche internal memos and a strange "normal" handling on another copy of the SAME memo, with alleged "whited out" words!!!!...per the reporter for Autoweek)...here Porsche faired poorly, at least on round one. I still have the AutoWeek article in MY 930 Turbo file is you are really interested...and, by the way, an Americanized 1977 930 Turbo was a HANDFUL, with MANY quirks !!!
Disclaimer: ALL of the above is per my MEMORY...AND NOT meant to be a condemnation of either car or brand...if facts are found to be in error, I apologize.
By my recollection there was a "similar concept" suit covered in AutoWeek in 1984 in So. Cal. involving an allegded DUI/speeding driver, death of a passenger, and the infamous first generation Porsche 930 Turbo (with "poisonous" handling per one Porsche internal memos and a strange "normal" handling on another copy of the SAME memo, with alleged "whited out" words!!!!...per the reporter for Autoweek)...here Porsche faired poorly, at least on round one. I still have the AutoWeek article in MY 930 Turbo file is you are really interested...and, by the way, an Americanized 1977 930 Turbo was a HANDFUL, with MANY quirks !!!
Disclaimer: ALL of the above is per my MEMORY...AND NOT meant to be a condemnation of either car or brand...if facts are found to be in error, I apologize.
ViperInBlack
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Before the post diverges into free associations, the words "lethality," "dangerousness" or "warning" are not part of the concept...er...nor is handwringing.
The question was posed as to whether the car is appropriately described to the public. Does the public know what it is other than a nice looking Corvette equivalent?
I do not feel that sales will suffer if the car is more accurately described.
The question was posed as to whether the car is appropriately described to the public. Does the public know what it is other than a nice looking Corvette equivalent?
I do not feel that sales will suffer if the car is more accurately described.
Point understood, Alice...just felt obligated to comment on the last post by PhoenixGTS...who is free to e-mail me for a copy of the 1984 AutoWeek article described above as it is most interesting. I'm OLD !!!
luc
Enthusiast
Don't the Viper brochure/website list the HP,Torque,tire sizes,performances,etc?
What else do you need to be an "educated" buyer?
May be a brochure telling you to use your brain?
Should the lack of TC (traction control)not be reflected in the way you drive the car?
Should a posted 30mph sign in a turn be complemented by a warning sign explaining that taking the turn faster may result in you car not being able to make it?
Luc 00GTS
What else do you need to be an "educated" buyer?
May be a brochure telling you to use your brain?
Should the lack of TC (traction control)not be reflected in the way you drive the car?
Should a posted 30mph sign in a turn be complemented by a warning sign explaining that taking the turn faster may result in you car not being able to make it?
Luc 00GTS
Chuck 98 RT/10
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"driver aids", "TC", "liability", "lawsuits"
Gawd, this thread is getting frightening and potentially baby steps to the demise of the beast that us purists have come to know and love...and respect.
Gawd, this thread is getting frightening and potentially baby steps to the demise of the beast that us purists have come to know and love...and respect.
Lee00blacksilverGTS
Enthusiast
I agree with Chuck, can you imagine some lawyer from DC stumbling across this thread. Let's not publicly contemplate all these issues and put thoughts in the minds of those who might compromise this car. Anybody remember we want 600HP? This thread is not the way to get it!
PhoenixGTS
Enthusiast
On the other hand, how would you like to be the father of the 18 year old killed in Des Moines thinking that given the stupidity of humanity in general your son might still be alive due to something as simple as a warning or buyer qualification, or if you are more leftist due to some governmental regulation that is really a mosquito-bite on our massive economy. Tough issues for society to deal with.
Vic
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Slap the dad for giving the boy the keys....Duh!
ViperInBlack
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You believe that D-C has not at culpability for their vehicles?
Chuck 98 RT/10
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It depends on where you want to draw the line. In this case the Viper is entirely innocent of any wrongdoing, IMO.
And I don't think "WARNING This car has a lot of torque and requires skill to handle." labels need to be put on cars. Talk about a slippery slope.
Chuck 98 RT/10
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Only in the event of product failure. In the case of this accident the Viper performed exactly as it was intended and directed to do.
The failure, as is often the case with kids, began with the parents.
Vic
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You mean to say this- "You believe that D-C has no culpability for their vehicles?" ?
I think that if DC or any other manufacturer were to suggest the vehicle has any inherent dangers, that would pave the way for lawsuits. Better to maintain the standard position, that operator error is to blame.
Can I do a Kerry flip-flop? Ok, here goes.
There are warnings prominently displayed right on the sunvisors of SUVs, warning drivers of the roll over tendencies of their vehicles, and urging them to use caution when driving. My Jeep had a warning like that on it. As far as I know, that admission by the manufacturer didn't lead to a flurry of lawsuits over SUV roll overs. Maybe it helped cover their corporate ***! And if thats true, then maybe a warning label on high HP cars wouldn't hurt. I dunno, sounds like an issue for their attorneys to ponder.
The more advanced societies get, the more laws they enact. Where does it end? We all get inflatable jumpsuits to protect ourselves from falls when walking down the sidewalk. The municiplaities make us wear them by law, to protect public entities from frivolous trip-and-fall claims. Kinda like the Michelin man!
Time for Tort reform, before the country grinds to a halt!
ViperInBlack
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Vic:
Tort reform is essential. (No argument there; my professional life is encumbered by endless and frivolous litigation, not the least of which is malingering.)
However, a pre-emptive strike in which a vehicles role and purpose is delineated is prophylaxis against some attorney deciding that there is money to be made because Viper is the new cigarette or the new Prozac.
Tort reform is essential. (No argument there; my professional life is encumbered by endless and frivolous litigation, not the least of which is malingering.)
However, a pre-emptive strike in which a vehicles role and purpose is delineated is prophylaxis against some attorney deciding that there is money to be made because Viper is the new cigarette or the new Prozac.
Janni
Enthusiast
It's a CAR people, not a weapon. Driven responsibly and below it's limits will perform very well and not cause harm.
Unfortunately, having the means to buy the car does not equate with having skill or responsibility.
You can kill yourself in a Prius. A moment of inattentiveness at 80 MPH in a Honda is every bit as dangerous as one in a Viper. In a Viper, you just get there faster.
Unfortunately, having the means to buy the car does not equate with having skill or responsibility.
You can kill yourself in a Prius. A moment of inattentiveness at 80 MPH in a Honda is every bit as dangerous as one in a Viper. In a Viper, you just get there faster.
Chuck 98 RT/10
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ViperInBlack
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Chuck:
Here is the Cliff's Notes version: "It would be better for the company to define the car rather than have the courts do so."
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
Here is an e-mail received:
"My name is _____ _____, ___ years old in _____, Canada. I have been an avid Dodge Viper fanatic since 1991 when Carrol Shelby drove the Viper at the Indy 500. I now have had 3 Dodge Viper rides, and a driver's license. I have never driven a Viper before, but I am aware of the damage it can do.
I just read your post about the 17 year old that got into the big Viper accident with the red SRT-10. From a teenager's point of view, you and all the other Viper owners/enthusiasts are right about NOT letting their sons/daughters drive ANY Dodge Viper unless they were taught how to drive the Viper. As we know, Dodge Viper is NOT any high performance sports car. It is a BEAST and there is a specific way in regards to driving it.
I have seen the results of people not knowing how to drive. I've seen five of my friends, and my first girlfriend all die in car accidents, related to street racing or people not knowing how to handle a lot of power.
I had the opportunity to drive a 2003 C5 Corvette convertible (I HATE GM) as my first sports car, with the owner in the passenger seat. It was automatic but still, when the owner told me to gun it, I tapped the gas pedal meaning, just give it a small bit more than I was giving, (side streets so you can't do much) because I was afraid of what the car COULD do (not much), but still, I believe that if you are not familiar with the vehicle, you do not do anything stupid.
I can drive with a manual transmission extremely well for my age group. I would be scared if someone offered me to drive a Dodge Viper...any year or model. It is my dream in life to own and drive one, but I would want the owner or someone that knows these cars beside me when I first drive it. My Viper rides included a 16th birthday present ride in a 1998 Viper GTS silver/blue stripes, 666 lb ft of torque at the rear wheels, and two SRT-10 rides (silver and black) at a Dodge event. Driving my mother's Mazda Protege, I treat it politely and don't do anything stupid (going fast or racing) as if it were a Viper. I have went for advanced driving courses and racing classes. For a new guy wanting to drive a Viper, what would you suggest, and what is the proper launching/clean driving technique (no tire spinning, or anything fancy) for a Viper?
Thanks,
____ ______"
Here is the Cliff's Notes version: "It would be better for the company to define the car rather than have the courts do so."
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
Here is an e-mail received:
"My name is _____ _____, ___ years old in _____, Canada. I have been an avid Dodge Viper fanatic since 1991 when Carrol Shelby drove the Viper at the Indy 500. I now have had 3 Dodge Viper rides, and a driver's license. I have never driven a Viper before, but I am aware of the damage it can do.
I just read your post about the 17 year old that got into the big Viper accident with the red SRT-10. From a teenager's point of view, you and all the other Viper owners/enthusiasts are right about NOT letting their sons/daughters drive ANY Dodge Viper unless they were taught how to drive the Viper. As we know, Dodge Viper is NOT any high performance sports car. It is a BEAST and there is a specific way in regards to driving it.
I have seen the results of people not knowing how to drive. I've seen five of my friends, and my first girlfriend all die in car accidents, related to street racing or people not knowing how to handle a lot of power.
I had the opportunity to drive a 2003 C5 Corvette convertible (I HATE GM) as my first sports car, with the owner in the passenger seat. It was automatic but still, when the owner told me to gun it, I tapped the gas pedal meaning, just give it a small bit more than I was giving, (side streets so you can't do much) because I was afraid of what the car COULD do (not much), but still, I believe that if you are not familiar with the vehicle, you do not do anything stupid.
I can drive with a manual transmission extremely well for my age group. I would be scared if someone offered me to drive a Dodge Viper...any year or model. It is my dream in life to own and drive one, but I would want the owner or someone that knows these cars beside me when I first drive it. My Viper rides included a 16th birthday present ride in a 1998 Viper GTS silver/blue stripes, 666 lb ft of torque at the rear wheels, and two SRT-10 rides (silver and black) at a Dodge event. Driving my mother's Mazda Protege, I treat it politely and don't do anything stupid (going fast or racing) as if it were a Viper. I have went for advanced driving courses and racing classes. For a new guy wanting to drive a Viper, what would you suggest, and what is the proper launching/clean driving technique (no tire spinning, or anything fancy) for a Viper?
Thanks,
____ ______"
No disrespect in light of the tragic accident, but folks I have to disagree.
The Viper is appropriately described to the public.
Dodge publishes "intense" performance numbers with motor mags testing and compare this car to some of the fastest production vehicles available in the US. These cars are absolute safety dreams compared to the readily available (for any age!), similar performing, but much cheaper sport bikes. I have a hard time following how the $80K car is misrepresented and dangerous when compared to the $13K sport bikes that many rider of all ages have risked enjoying for years. Could you ever compare the Viper's "dangerous power" and "traction problems" and somehow conclude that the sport bike is safer? Allocating time and personal energy for either learning method, "self taught exploring your limits cautiously" or "formal training" is a necessary survival instinct for all drivers/riders of all ages of any performance vehicles.
Only issues that need the manufacturers published warning are behaviors that are unique to the Viper. Frankly, I cant think of anything besides the parking lot speed bucking, never seen any other car do that! Everything else about the Vipers behavior seems stable and predictable to me.
The Viper is appropriately described to the public.
Dodge publishes "intense" performance numbers with motor mags testing and compare this car to some of the fastest production vehicles available in the US. These cars are absolute safety dreams compared to the readily available (for any age!), similar performing, but much cheaper sport bikes. I have a hard time following how the $80K car is misrepresented and dangerous when compared to the $13K sport bikes that many rider of all ages have risked enjoying for years. Could you ever compare the Viper's "dangerous power" and "traction problems" and somehow conclude that the sport bike is safer? Allocating time and personal energy for either learning method, "self taught exploring your limits cautiously" or "formal training" is a necessary survival instinct for all drivers/riders of all ages of any performance vehicles.
Only issues that need the manufacturers published warning are behaviors that are unique to the Viper. Frankly, I cant think of anything besides the parking lot speed bucking, never seen any other car do that! Everything else about the Vipers behavior seems stable and predictable to me.
ViperInBlack
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So, you are saying that D-C publishes complete specs on the Dodge Viper, and by doing so, it has told the prospective buyer what he needs to know to make an informed decision? Hmmm, I am not certain that is considered full disclosure.
Do I believe that anyone of age, with a valid license, with the requisite funds should be permitted to buy a Viper? Absolutely. That is the core of America; the freedom to do so.
Do I believe that many need to appreciate the responsibility of ownership? Absolutely, that is the responsibility of every driver of a high performance vehicle.
I was merely proposing that we could, with Joe's assistance, have an FAQ for prospective owners so that they understood the characteristics of the car.
Do I believe that anyone of age, with a valid license, with the requisite funds should be permitted to buy a Viper? Absolutely. That is the core of America; the freedom to do so.
Do I believe that many need to appreciate the responsibility of ownership? Absolutely, that is the responsibility of every driver of a high performance vehicle.
I was merely proposing that we could, with Joe's assistance, have an FAQ for prospective owners so that they understood the characteristics of the car.
Written pretty clearly on the web site, its all there:
500hp, 3380lbs, "Great structural rigidity for amazing handling", "wraparound seats keep you in place when turning fast corners", "Aerodynamic shape and underbody design for lower drag coefficient".
My post was focused on disagreeing with suggesting manufacturer liability or obligation to disclose driving style safety concerns. Your proposal for FAQ for everyone's comments, opinions, and concerns is a terrific idea! I certainly would contribute.
2002_Viper_GTS_ACR
Enthusiast
DANG.. I FINALLY AGREE WITH THIS CHUMP !!
So lets see ... a 80k+ sports car is supposed to be as benign as a Toyota corolla that cost 20k? (guessing, I have no clue on what cheap cars cost
) And therefore, we are SHOCKED that a v10 making 500hp is somehow more aggressive and less forgiving when unleashed in an adolescent/unrespecting/immature way? Yeah.. I'll pass on that concept, and realize, that parents have a responsibility, a duty to act in their Childs best interest, just as Sex Education, Drug Education, and even driver education. Know your Children's limits, get involved, help them to be safe as best you can, spend time with them in their cars, BUT LORD KNOWS, don't give inexperienced youth the keys to a 500hp Viper, so they can do what youth does well... feel indestructible .. because in the end, the lesson often is learned the hard way, and unfortunately sometimes tragically.
My heart TRULY goes out to ANYONE who has ever lost a loved one in a car accident, of their own fault, or someone else's.
An "accident" doesn't excuse us from the reality, they we have a responsibility and accountability for our actions. The father should have never given the kid the keys, and the kid should have never driven the car as he did.
Jon
gthomas
Enthusiast
For this one bad driver I can come up with a dozen that were responsible with high HP cars.
And for every other bad driver you give me, I can come up with more that are good drivers.
a bad analogy, but:
When you buy a bushel of apples, at least one will be bruised/squishy/unedible. You always have one bad apple. Does it really mean we need more regulations? More restrictions?
If this is the cry to get rid of sports cars, remember it is ricers that are the primary 'hooligans'.
So now anything but a ford fiesta or yugo is unnecessary.
Someone, please save us from ourselves.
And for every other bad driver you give me, I can come up with more that are good drivers.
a bad analogy, but:
When you buy a bushel of apples, at least one will be bruised/squishy/unedible. You always have one bad apple. Does it really mean we need more regulations? More restrictions?
If this is the cry to get rid of sports cars, remember it is ricers that are the primary 'hooligans'.
So now anything but a ford fiesta or yugo is unnecessary.
Someone, please save us from ourselves.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Five isn't entirely true Alice. I haven't read many reviews of late but in the past every Viper article written had numerous comments like "this snake will bite you if you don't know how to drive it." After putting a few hundred miles on the SRT I don't see why the critics would alter their "warning."
I agree with quick2tr - The Viper is appropriately described to the public both from DC and the whimpy car rags.
Go to the root of the problem. Put a warning label on kids to help the idiot parents.
ViperInBlack
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Chuck:
Idiot parents are the plague of America. Not much you can do with that. Wish there were.
I have read arguably most Viper magazine articles; I have seen brief reference to the power of the Viper, but most often, it is stated without specificity.
Well, anyway, it was an interesting topic in which many participated.
I'll ask Joe if he wants to have a Prospective Owners FAQ...it may be helpful.
I wonder the following:
"Have you ever let someone drive your Viper...a driver with 10+ years experience...and felt anxiety that they were still ill-equipped to drive your car?"
Hmmm, I have. My kids call him "daddy." (God will get me for saying that).
Idiot parents are the plague of America. Not much you can do with that. Wish there were.
I have read arguably most Viper magazine articles; I have seen brief reference to the power of the Viper, but most often, it is stated without specificity.
Well, anyway, it was an interesting topic in which many participated.
I'll ask Joe if he wants to have a Prospective Owners FAQ...it may be helpful.
I wonder the following:
"Have you ever let someone drive your Viper...a driver with 10+ years experience...and felt anxiety that they were still ill-equipped to drive your car?"
Hmmm, I have. My kids call him "daddy." (God will get me for saying that).
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
I've let a few non-Viper drivers drive my Viper. But I know them well and trust them. My brother for instance, I'd let him drive it any time he wanted. Understandably, he wouldn't do the same for me. LOL
