GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
George, We all know you are very close to Toddy, but your and his attackes over a NON Issue should really stop, Here are my responses to your latest round of misinformation from my standpoint.
I did not attack you guys, you attacked me, for days on end over something that NO MATTER WHAT TODDY TOLD YOU, I TALKED TO HIM 4 TIMES ABOUT ON THE PHONE,
IF HE HADN"T ASKED THE MODS TO REMOVE THE CELL PHONE STATEMENT THAT SHOWS THOSE CALLS TOOK PLACE BEFORE HE STARTED HIS SELF PROMOTION THREAD YOU WOULD ALL STILL SEE IT HERE!
HERE ARE SOME OTHER FACTS:
ONLY ONE HEADER WON THE TESTING FOR CAR LIFE LONGEVITY AT DODGE
This Test encompassed 17 days of wide open throttle, 24 hours a day, This is Dodge's internal test to determine what will survive on the street for the life of the car, this test, in their opinion, simulates the life of a car for real world driving, not my test, Their test.
IN FACT ONLY ONE HEADER SURVIVED The TEST, The rest OVERHEATED and SAGGED
THAT HEADER WAS THE BELANGER HEADER, - JUSTIFICATION FOR A HIGHER PRICE, IT WILL LAST THE LIFE OF YOUR CAR.
HEADERS for racing are only tested for the length of the race if that, All good race teams check everything again and again after every race and outing on the track, RACE TEAMS have bigger budgets than JOE CONSUMER and if a race team finds a crack in a header weld they remove it and re-weld it or replace it, 30 minutes of racing is not the equivalent of 17 days 24 hours a day, PERIOD!
FLANGES,
Stainless Steel has a tensile strength 70% more than that of Aluminized or Mild Steel.
If a header has a flange that is 5/16 of an inch made out of aluminized or Mild steel and it is compared to a flange that is made out of 3/8 stainless, the stainless will need twice the force (17% thicker x 70% ) to clamp it down to the aluminum head, this is before you factor in the extra force required to overcome the extra tensile strength from all the 5 tubes welded to the flange, vs 2 or 3 tubes, if the mild, or aluminized, header has a warped flange at all.
Temperature
Stainless, unless heat treated in advance, when subjected to temperatures of between 800-1600 degrees becomes brittle and is subject to failure under stress
I did not attack you guys, you attacked me, for days on end over something that NO MATTER WHAT TODDY TOLD YOU, I TALKED TO HIM 4 TIMES ABOUT ON THE PHONE,
IF HE HADN"T ASKED THE MODS TO REMOVE THE CELL PHONE STATEMENT THAT SHOWS THOSE CALLS TOOK PLACE BEFORE HE STARTED HIS SELF PROMOTION THREAD YOU WOULD ALL STILL SEE IT HERE!
Steve,
Here are some truths that I can tell since I was witness or involved with the situations. But before I get into the list of facts, you claim there has been a witch hunt for you. You did not respond on this thread until 3-7-2011. When the allegations started floating (around 2-23-11) of fake headers, you should have picked up the phone and called Toddy and told him that you had made a small number of samples. This would have stopped the crap 12 days before your reply post. That was bad judgement on your part, you got caught with you hand in the cookie jar and it bit you on the ass. If the headers you had built were no big deal, why wouldn't you have let BBG know you're in the header business? Obviously you thought that these would get sold overseas or to people that might not be active on the board and nobody would ever find out. Yeah, it's your own damn business what you do, but don't expect not to get some flack on it.
Here is a list of facts that I personally was involved in and SWEAR ON MY CHILDRENS LIVES THAT THIS IS THE TRUTH.
Fact:
On this thread on 2-23-2011 I responded to a post that 99R/T10 did (that he deleted very quickly) that there is only one type of ACRX header, which "other" ACRX header are you refering to? I new something was not right, but had no idea that knockoff headers were the issue. I called Toddy and let him know that there is some confusion about how the types of headers and he should help clear it up. A couple of days later I talk to him and he tells me that he's left messages for Steve and he won't return his calls. Now Toddy is getting concerned that Steve might have made some copies since he is not returning his calls. I was not in Sacramento to personally watch Toddy calling Steve, but by the tone in his voice I believed him 100%
GET TODDY TO POST UP HIS PHONE STATEMENTS AND SHOW US THESE "CALLS" THEY DO NOT EXIST, CHECK YOUR FACTS, I POSTED MINE THAT SHOW I TALKED TO HIM 4 TIMES THE DAY BEFORE HIS POSTS AND HE HAD THE MODS REMOVE THE PIC OF THE CELL STATEMENT THAT PROVE IT , IF YOU BELIEVE HIM THEN YOU ARE BELIEVING A LIE,
Fact:
Don't try to stir the *** between Lou and Toddy. What the hell kind of feud are you talking about? I've never met or talked to Lou and he may have a problem with Toddy, that I don't know. But what I do know is this....I've been on 8 hour roadtrips with Toddy to DC Performance and back to get Toddys Viper dyno tuned,
we've worked on my car together, we were at the VOI together, we've driven to some VCA meetings together and we talk on the phone. If there was ever a chance to bad mouth Lou I would have heard it. When talking about Lou and Belanger Headers, Toddy always speaks of Lou with much respect and praises the quality of his work. If Toddy had a problem or feud with Lou, I'd hear about it, trust me. So stop the B.S. that stirs crap between manufacturers.
ANY ONE WHO WANTS TO PHONE LOU AND ASK HIM DIRECTLY IS WELCOME TO,
Fact:
You claim that Dodge did no testing on these headers. At the VCA meeting in Sacramento, I watched and listened to videos of the headers being tested back to back with the competition. Dyno numbers were posted. The testing took place at Arrow which I believe is contracted by Dodge to do a lot of these dyno tests. If having a set of headers on a dyno in front of multiple SRT engineers is not testing, what the heck is??
QUIT TWISTING WORDS, I STATED "[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Claiming the testing Dodge may have done as R&D is wrong and misleading."[/FONT] IT IS WRONG TO TAKE CREDIT FOR TESTING DODGE DID,
THEY DID TEST THE HEADERS, THE BELANGERS WON MOST ALL OF THE TESTS, AND THEN IT CAME DOWN TO PRICE, A REALLY LOW , LOW PRICE
Fact:
You're trying to make Toddy look like the villain here. But from an integrity standpoint it's hard to fault him for doing what is right and what treats the customer right. Remember the 20 hoods you offered up to him to sell for you? (see post on 4-11-2010 in the New Products Suppliers and Specials). He was trying to sell hoods for $375.00....but only had them listed as "wall art" I called him and said *** is wall art? He explained that he didn't trust the hoods enough to sell them as body panels to customers because he didn't know what might happen to them at high speed. Many other vendors would have just said, "screw it, Viper hoods for $999.00 on Ebay." You cannot fault Toddy when it comes to customer satisfaction and protecting his clients. If it's not the highest quality, he won't sell it.
INTEGRITY??? CALL WILL AT RSI AND ASK HIM ABOUT THE CEASE AND DESIST ORDER HE HAD TO HAVE ISSUED TO KEEP HIS CLUTCH MANUFACTURER FROM BEING BACK DOORED, anyone who questions this can CALL WILL,
IF YOU WANT I CAN POST UP EMAILS TODDY SENT OUT TO PEOPLE CLAIMING HE BOUGHT ALL THOSE HOODS, IT WAS NOT HIS IDEA TO SELL THEM AS WALL ART, BUT THEN THE MODS WILL PROBABLY BE REQUESTED TO REMOVE THE POST, RIGHT? ,
WHEN ARE YOU "BBG CREW" GOING TO STOP TRYING TO ATTACK ME OVER A NON ISSUE??? IT SHOWS A CERTAIN LEVEL OF IMMATURITY
Fact:
Steve and I spent hours together at the VOI...we sat at the same table for the main dinner, kicked back at Toddys booth in the ACRX garage at the track and overall had what I thought was a good time. I discussed with him at length the advantages and performance I got from installing the ACRX headers on my car. I discussed where Dodge wanted the O2 sensor and why, primary length, etc. (now I'm wondering if you used the info we discussed to make and market your clone headers). Sunday night rolls around and I find myself in the bar with Maurice Liang, our NorCal President. I ask Maurice what he thought and knew of you. He replied he knew who you were but didn't have any direct dealings with you. Then he asked me why I'm asking. My response was I've only seen the train wreck posts on the forum and he seems normal and genuine in person. I explained that I've never recommended his company (Vipair) before the VOI since all I knew about him were the problems on the forums, but after spending time with him in person, he seems like an ok guy. We left it at that. Now I really don't know what to think of Steve. He knows the work, time and flights back to Dodge that Toddy had to do to get this header deal done. Did you really think that of all the headers to knock off, the ACRX "style" wouldn't cause you some grief?
WE NEVER DISCUSSED YOUR HEADER PERFORMANCE AND YOU KNOW IT, I HAD ALREADY READ ALLLLLL YOUR POSTS ON THIS BOARD ABOUT IT ANYWAYS
Fact:
No manufacturers are safe from Steve. Before the VOI I called Toddy to order an Arrow carbon fiber closeout. They were out of stock so I called Vipair. Steve didn't have one available. I asked if he had designed anything better than the Arrow unit. He said no, but just order an Arrow unit and I can make copies of it. I ended up not getting anything as of yet, but Jesus, design something of your own!!
TOTAL FABRICATION HERE, THIS IS YOUR "BBG CREW" AGENDA THOUGH - TO TRY TO ALIENATE OTHER VENDORS, JUST LIKE THE SENDING M&M AND BELANGER HEADERS TO CHINA FABRICATION OF TODDY'S, THIS IS YOURS OF THE DAY, TIME TO STOP BEFORE YOU GET YOURSELF INTO TROUBLE
MAYBE ASK TODDY ABOUT ALL THE VENDORS HE HAS BEEN CALLING SLANDERING ME WITH ALL THESE FABRICATED LIES OF HIS, MAKE A LIST, I HAVE ONE...
WHY DON'T YOU CALL TODD AT ARROW AND ORDER ONE FOR YOURSELF - THEY COST $585.00
Fact:
About 45 days ago Steve calls me up to ask me my opinion of building a Ford F150 Raptor clone kit. I told him from a selling standpoint there are a huge amount of F150's and he'd probably make a mint compared to the small Viper market. He had already started to get Raptor body panels in to have them knocked off. So even Ford is not safe from Vipair. Now I wish I had told him it was a stupid idea and that it would never sell...but Steve is too smart for that.
THANKS FOR THE PRESS RELEASE
Regarding your truck getting damaged by the header display, I wasn't there to witness the rack hitting your truck. But after the VOI we talked on the phone laughing about it and I told you that if the truck was damaged, call Toddy and have him pay for it. You stated it really was no big deal (or something to that effect...it really wasn't a big deal so I'm paraphrasing what you said). You honestly didn't seem to care. So bringing it up now is kind of chicken crap....you're just reaching for strings to create a spin against the real issue of knocking off the headers.
SINCE TODDY WAS A FRIEND IT WASN"T A BIG DEAL, I DID NOT AND STILL DO NOT CARE, IT WAS AN ILLUSTRATION, IF IT HAD BEEN A VIPER OWNER AT VOI, I AM SURE THE QUESTION OF PAYING THE DEDUCTIBLE WOULD NOT HAVE COME UP, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN "LET ME SEE YOUR INSURANCE POLICY FOR YOUR BUSINESS"
- THAT IS THE POINT, SORRY FOR BEING NICE,
I HAVE 4 DENTED AND SCRATCHED PANELS ON THAT SIDE OF MY TRUCK NOW,
MAYBE ASK TODDY WHEN HE IS SHIPPING BACK MY VALVE COVERS HE IS HANGING ON TO, HE HAS HAD THE WAYBILL NOW FOR 3 WEEKS...
For those following this soap opera like thread you need to understand that Toddy and Steve are not strangers. Best friends no, but they have ate casual lunches together, their kids played together and they often talked on the phone. For Steve to knock off a set of what he calls ACRX style headers from someone he knows and are in each others back yards was a stupid move. Trying to justify it by saying my tube is thicker, my flange is this, blah, blah, blah....and then trying to spin the situation and make the guy that got ripped off the villian?? Steve you blew it and what is done is done, but you should have picked up the phone when you started marketing the headers to the public and told Toddy the situation. It would've stopped this whole damn mess. Now you're stuck with another one of your train wreck threads that will forever be in cyberspace.
YES GEORGE, SOME SAMPLE HEADERS GOT MADE TO INVESTIGATE THE ROI ON THAT TYPE OF BUSINESS, MONTHS AND MONTHS AGO, AND THEY WERE SOLD LONG AFTER THE DECISION WAS MADE TO NOT GET INTO THE BUSINESS, THERE WERE NONE LEFT
ASK TODDY,
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I TOLD HIM ON THE CALLS THAT I DID NOT AVOID, THE DAY BEFORE HIS POST, HE THEN ATTACKED WITH A VENGEANCE TO PROMOTE HIS BUSINESS, AND TO TRY TO DESTROY MINE
THERE WAS NO OTHER REASON AND YOU GUYS ALL JUMPED ON THE BANDWAGON,
The sad part is you have the talent and know-how to make your own products and good products at that. Toddy runs your adjustable suspension kit on his Viper and likes it...your cat back system seems like it works well. Stop all this knock off crap and make some new and innovative products that I know you're capable of.
I just watched live a tsunami kill possibly hundreds of Japanese people tonight. Life is too short to copy the ideas of others when you're capable of so much more yourself.
GEORGE, I HAVE QUITE A FEW ORIGINAL PARTS , DOZENS, BUT I AM NOT TRYING TO USE THIS THREAD TO PROMOTE MY BUSINESS, I AM JUST DEFENDING MYSELF FROM A CALCULATED ATTACK
George
HERE ARE SOME OTHER FACTS:
ONLY ONE HEADER WON THE TESTING FOR CAR LIFE LONGEVITY AT DODGE
This Test encompassed 17 days of wide open throttle, 24 hours a day, This is Dodge's internal test to determine what will survive on the street for the life of the car, this test, in their opinion, simulates the life of a car for real world driving, not my test, Their test.
IN FACT ONLY ONE HEADER SURVIVED The TEST, The rest OVERHEATED and SAGGED
THAT HEADER WAS THE BELANGER HEADER, - JUSTIFICATION FOR A HIGHER PRICE, IT WILL LAST THE LIFE OF YOUR CAR.
HEADERS for racing are only tested for the length of the race if that, All good race teams check everything again and again after every race and outing on the track, RACE TEAMS have bigger budgets than JOE CONSUMER and if a race team finds a crack in a header weld they remove it and re-weld it or replace it, 30 minutes of racing is not the equivalent of 17 days 24 hours a day, PERIOD!
FLANGES,
Stainless Steel has a tensile strength 70% more than that of Aluminized or Mild Steel.
If a header has a flange that is 5/16 of an inch made out of aluminized or Mild steel and it is compared to a flange that is made out of 3/8 stainless, the stainless will need twice the force (17% thicker x 70% ) to clamp it down to the aluminum head, this is before you factor in the extra force required to overcome the extra tensile strength from all the 5 tubes welded to the flange, vs 2 or 3 tubes, if the mild, or aluminized, header has a warped flange at all.
Temperature
Stainless, unless heat treated in advance, when subjected to temperatures of between 800-1600 degrees becomes brittle and is subject to failure under stress