ACRX Headers

TrackAire

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I bought a set and had to have the whole damn lot rewelded to the flanges, the centre joint flanges were pissed and had 2 different screw tap sizes, had to get them skimmed, the cat pipes werent opened enough to get the header end in, cost me £600 to get the stuff fixed,
After all this i dont have the confidence to fit them

Im not very happy

sssammm,

Nothing is more frustrating that buying something (let alone across the pond) and having it not be what you want. For the Yanks that aren't familiar with the exchange rate, you paid about $1000.00 USD to fix your headers. That is B.S.

Who the hell in their right minds would send them to china to get made, to get value they would have to be made in a bulk order....how many viper owners would want a set 20? 30? just not viable

I can and so can just about anybody else that has manufacturing contacts overseas. I'm having a prototype $50.00 product sent to me. They were willing to build me a single unit for my review. The key is shipping....if you can thow the products on top of the rest of a shipment in a container, then it is very do-able.
Trying to airfreight something bulky like headers would kill you and your profit margins.



Im also now very happy with my headers bought from steve, ok, i had to work on them, but i tell you, if i had bought the BBG ones, i would have done the same work on them too, maybe im more of a sceptic of goods before i take a car apart and put any old stuff on it, doesnt hurt to scrutinise your purchases for potential problems

ps, very happy with Vipairs after service, he offered a full refund including what i had spent on them with no quible.

Well I hope you got a full refund and your costs to fix your headers. Your change of attitude tells me that something was worked out (I hope for your sake it was). I don't know too many Brits that would have gone through the crap you did and talk well of the vendor if major concessions were not agreed upon.

And I must respectfully disagree with your header thoughts that they all need to be worked on. If you had started with a real set of ACR-X, Belangers or M&M's you would not be in this position. You may drive your car hard but I'd venture to guess you're not ever going to put your car through what a season of ACR-X racecars does to the BBG ACR-X Headers. The Yanks can build good headers, I just wish you didn't have to go through what you did to get what you deserve. Post some pics of the beast when its all buttoned up and running.

Cheers,
George
 

sssammm

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I am happy with my lot because I have reworked them to my satisfaction, I am also happy with Vipair, at no time did he hide from this problem, and offered me a full refund, plus all the costs to get them fixed.

my biggest bugbear on all those ACRX headers being sold is the lack of welding round the tubes on the outside of the flanges, if they are not welded all the way round you have a weak area, and you will get splits and cracks in the inside, mine are completely welded all round every tube on all the flanges,
Lets see how many people who have them develope problems, i hope none.

As for the china syndrome, I bow to your greater knowledge of this.

sam
 

tzortzViper

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I am happy with my lot because I have reworked them to my satisfaction, I am also happy with Vipair, at no time did he hide from this problem, and offered me a full refund, plus all the costs to get them fixed.

my biggest bugbear on all those ACRX headers being sold is the lack of welding round the tubes on the outside of the flanges, if they are not welded all the way round you have a weak area, and you will get splits and cracks in the inside, mine are completely welded all round every tube on all the flanges,
Lets see how many people who have them develope problems, i hope none.

As for the china syndrome, I bow to your greater knowledge of this.

sam

I cannot understand the reason for not having them welded all around.
BBG headers also use the same welding pattern.

There should be some reason for doing it.


.
 

tzortzViper

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Sorry but 3K for a set of pipes is outrageous. Heck, 2K is bad enough, but 3K? For that kind of scratch who can blame anybody for building knockoffs? Jeeze, it's got me thinking of investing 50K for a CNC mandrel bender. Since I like doing this kind of work anyway...hmmm.

I bet you can find such a Chinese CNC bender for less than 10k....

:D:D:D





.
 

sssammm

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You have to be a very skilled welder to weld all the way round every tube, thats why, and it takes a lot of time, and time is money
 
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tzortzViper

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You have to be a very skilled welder to weld all the way round eevry tube, thats why

You mean that even BBG/ARH does not have any skilled welder to do that?

I do not believe it so, there has to be other reasons.



.
 

TrackAire

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You mean that even BBG/ARH does not have any skilled welder to do that?

I do not believe it so, there has to be other reasons.



.

You are right, there is more to the header then just the outside weld. The flange really only holds the header tube in place, the internal TIG weld is the important one. Maybe I wasn't too clear before, but if a header can go a full race season under those conditions and not break at the concerned welds, then more isn't neccessarily better. And yes, it would probably end up costing quite a bit more to quality weld the entire outside tube.


There is an engine builder who runs a shop accross the street from our work. He used to build and race a lot of high horsepower Pro Street type hot rods. I'm going to go get his thoughts on this and get an outside opinion. I'll post up what he thinks.

Cheers,
George
 

shooter_t1

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I love how people post about manufacturing and R&D when they have no freeking clue.
Sorry folks, some of you are walking in the dark.:dunno: I started in this business because I actually thought , (like some of you), that it can't possibly cost that much to make a set of headers. Well,,,,,,,, after going down the road of trying to make a "cheaper" set of headers I discovered that R&D, materials, manufacturing, dealing w/ suppliers, dealing with tire kickers constantly, and all the other b.s, that goes with selling a product to the public, it's almost not worth it. We do this cuz we love the Viper and most of the owners. lol
Cheaper is just that, JUNK. I refuse to go down that road.:D
There is no way enough of a Viper market out there to get the costs any lower without cutting your own throat, sorry.

M&M Performance :2tu:

$1500-$2000 markup per set shows just how well the Vendors LOVE Viper owners. I don't know what M&M Performance is charging for a set of Gen 4 headers so I'm not talking about them.
 

TowDawg

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I disagree based on what my car did...base line was 545 rwhp...with the Mopar controler and headers...using stock muffers..we made 618 rwhp on 91 and 638 with 100 octane...the control wont do a damn thing with less than 93 so the gain from 545 to 618 was ALL HEADERS...this was all done and documented by DC Performance and if you search back to JAnuary 2009 you will find the postings...this was on my 2008 ACR.

73 hp from headers? I know the numbers are numbers, but the ECU HAD to be something with that even with the 91 fuel, or something else happened. There is no way a N/A engine picked up 73 hp from just headers, unless there was a major restriction in stockers (as in something wrong). I don't see that though because though 548 is good base number. I'm not doubting what the dyno spit out, and I'm happy for your great #'s:2tu:, but I've NEVER seen that kind of gain from a N/A (especially stock compression) engine from headers.
 

TrackAire

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In talking to the engine builder about headers, flanges, etc. here's some intersting things I had not thought of.

I asked about flanges not laying flat (mine didn't, and not on my Edelbrocks that are on my truck). He said that was extremely common and usually not an issue. Because of the pipes welded to the flange, they are all slightly different lengths with different bends. These puts diffferent tension on the flange. He said he had black painted headers that when layed out in the sun would flex the flange one way the then flex the other way when cooled. He also said that many headers flanges don't really make much contact with the side of the head, it's the pipe opening (not sure what the technical term for that is) that makes the seal to the exhaust opening in the head.

For a good seal, the pipe end must be machined correctly, period...the flange just puts it into position up and down, side to side.

In talking about flange thickness, he stated that if the flange is too thick, it can cause problems with the header bolts since you have an aluminum head and a extra thick flange of stainless steel, those two metals expand and contract at different rates. If the flange is too thick, it can pull bolts out of the threads in the heads as one metal is expanding or contracting faster than the other. He asked me if thick flanges were so good, why don't high horsepower big blocks have 1/2" flanges?? :dunno:
So too thick is not good and I would assume too thin is a problem also. You need some sort of happy medium to match up to your specific vehicles application.

Tube thickness cannot be too thin or too thick. Too thick of a tube can cause the header to retain too much heat at the head...which in turn keeps the head area hotter than it needs to be which eventually makes the combustion chamber hotter. I didn't think to ask if the gasses get scavenged faster from a hot side to a cooler side...maybe somebody here knows.

He did say he was a big believer in good quality fasteners and likes the locking type fastners (like Stage 8). If the pipe end is true and the fasteners are torqued down correctly, the header should not leak or have problems. Header gaskets are very important, I told him I think my car has MLS, what comes stock on the Viper.

So flanges can flex, no big deal once mounted. Too thick of a flange can be a problem on aluminum heads. Gaskets, fasteners and getting everything torqued down correctly is the extremely important. Hope this helps clear up some questions.

Cheers,
George
 

2BADD-4U

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still crickets...... where's toddy ?



plum, I agree 100% I will state one fact though, if you know you are RIGHT and telling the TRUTH and have nothing to HIDE....well you would be in here stating all the facts jumping up and down DEFENDING YOURSELF :buttkick: and PROVING your case with ALL you can provide. Not just singing a song. :kabong:

I also agree with above posts about the AWESOME quality by BELANGER It is a known fact.

I will be Buying Belanger Headers with his full setup (Gen 4)or Belangers and Corsa :D

Plum, Any info on this?


Dave
 

VicTxV10

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plum, I agree 100% I will state one fact though, if you know you are RIGHT and telling the TRUTH and have nothing to HIDE....well you would be in here stating all the facts jumping up and down DEFENDING YOURSELF :buttkick: and PROVING your case with ALL you can provide. Not just singing a song. :kabong:

I also agree with above posts about the AWESOME quality by BELANGER It is a known fact.

I will be Buying Belanger Headers with his full setup (Gen 4)or Belangers and Corsa :D

Plum, Any info on this?


Dave

Call Vipair, I'm sure he has copies of these too!!
 

TrackAire

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So you are the only person that believes all the lies and BS?? Especially the sending Belangers to China.

Are you posting for Toddy now that he has been caught in so many lies?



Here is some reading material :lmao:


Steve,

Here are some truths that I can tell since I was witness or involved with the situations. But before I get into the list of facts, you claim there has been a witch hunt for you. You did not respond on this thread until 3-7-2011. When the allegations started floating (around 2-23-11) of fake headers, you should have picked up the phone and called Toddy and told him that you had made a small number of samples. This would have stopped the crap 12 days before your reply post. That was bad judgement on your part, you got caught with you hand in the cookie jar and it bit you on the ass. If the headers you had built were no big deal, why wouldn't you have let BBG know you're in the header business? Obviously you thought that these would get sold overseas or to people that might not be active on the board and nobody would ever find out. Yeah, it's your own damn business what you do, but don't expect not to get some flack on it.


Here is a list of facts that I personally was involved in and SWEAR ON MY CHILDRENS LIVES THAT THIS IS THE TRUTH.

Fact:
On this thread on 2-23-2011 I responded to a post that 99R/T10 did (that he deleted very quickly) that there is only one type of ACRX header, which "other" ACRX header are you refering to? I new something was not right, but had no idea that knockoff headers were the issue. I called Toddy and let him know that there is some confusion about how the types of headers and he should help clear it up. A couple of days later I talk to him and he tells me that he's left messages for Steve and he won't return his calls. Now Toddy is getting concerned that Steve might have made some copies since he is not returning his calls. I was not in Sacramento to personally watch Toddy calling Steve, but by the tone in his voice I believed him 100%

Fact:
Don't try to stir the *** between Lou and Toddy. What the hell kind of feud are you talking about? I've never met or talked to Lou and he may have a problem with Toddy, that I don't know. But what I do know is this....I've been on 8 hour roadtrips with Toddy to DC Performance and back to get Toddys Viper dyno tuned,
we've worked on my car together, we were at the VOI together, we've driven to some VCA meetings together and we talk on the phone. If there was ever a chance to bad mouth Lou I would have heard it. When talking about Lou and Belanger Headers, Toddy always speaks of Lou with much respect and praises the quality of his work. If Toddy had a problem or feud with Lou, I'd hear about it, trust me. So stop the B.S. that stirs crap between manufacturers.

Fact:
You claim that Dodge did no testing on these headers. At the VCA meeting in Sacramento, I watched and listened to videos of the headers being tested back to back with the competition. Dyno numbers were posted. The testing took place at Arrow which I believe is contracted by Dodge to do a lot of these dyno tests. If having a set of headers on a dyno in front of multiple SRT engineers is not testing, what the heck is??

Fact:
You're trying to make Toddy look like the villain here. But from an integrity standpoint it's hard to fault him for doing what is right and what treats the customer right. Remember the 20 hoods you offered up to him to sell for you? (see post on 4-11-2010 in the New Products Suppliers and Specials). He was trying to sell hoods for $375.00....but only had them listed as "wall art" :dunno: I called him and said *** is wall art? He explained that he didn't trust the hoods enough to sell them as body panels to customers because he didn't know what might happen to them at high speed. Many other vendors would have just said, "screw it, Viper hoods for $999.00 on Ebay." You cannot fault Toddy when it comes to customer satisfaction and protecting his clients. If it's not the highest quality, he won't sell it.

Fact:
Steve and I spent hours together at the VOI...we sat at the same table for the main dinner, kicked back at Toddys booth in the ACRX garage at the track and overall had what I thought was a good time. I discussed with him at length the advantages and performance I got from installing the ACRX headers on my car. I discussed where Dodge wanted the O2 sensor and why, primary length, etc. (now I'm wondering if you used the info we discussed to make and market your clone headers). Sunday night rolls around and I find myself in the bar with Maurice Liang, our NorCal President. I ask Maurice what he thought and knew of you. He replied he knew who you were but didn't have any direct dealings with you. Then he asked me why I'm asking. My response was I've only seen the train wreck posts on the forum and he seems normal and genuine in person. I explained that I've never recommended his company (Vipair) before the VOI since all I knew about him were the problems on the forums, but after spending time with him in person, he seems like an ok guy. We left it at that. Now I really don't know what to think of Steve. He knows the work, time and flights back to Dodge that Toddy had to do to get this header deal done. Did you really think that of all the headers to knock off, the ACRX "style" wouldn't cause you some grief?

Fact:
No manufacturers are safe from Steve. Before the VOI I called Toddy to order an Arrow carbon fiber closeout. They were out of stock so I called Vipair. Steve didn't have one available. I asked if he had designed anything better than the Arrow unit. He said no, but just order an Arrow unit and I can make copies of it. I ended up not getting anything as of yet, but Jesus, design something of your own!!

Fact:
About 45 days ago Steve calls me up to ask me my opinion of building a Ford F150 Raptor clone kit. I told him from a selling standpoint there are a huge amount of F150's and he'd probably make a mint compared to the small Viper market. He had already started to get Raptor body panels in to have them knocked off. So even Ford is not safe from Vipair. Now I wish I had told him it was a stupid idea and that it would never sell...but Steve is too smart for that.

Regarding your truck getting damaged by the header display, I wasn't there to witness the rack hitting your truck. But after the VOI we talked on the phone laughing about it and I told you that if the truck was damaged, call Toddy and have him pay for it. You stated it really was no big deal (or something to that effect...it really wasn't a big deal so I'm paraphrasing what you said). You honestly didn't seem to care. So bringing it up now is kind of chicken crap....you're just reaching for strings to create a spin against the real issue of knocking off the headers.

For those following this soap opera like thread you need to understand that Toddy and Steve are not strangers. Best friends no, but they have ate casual lunches together, their kids played together and they often talked on the phone. For Steve to knock off a set of what he calls ACRX style headers from someone he knows and are in each others back yards was a stupid move. Trying to justify it by saying my tube is thicker, my flange is this, blah, blah, blah....and then trying to spin the situation and make the guy that got ripped off the villian?? Steve you blew it and what is done is done, but you should have picked up the phone when you started marketing the headers to the public and told Toddy the situation. It would've stopped this whole damn mess. Now you're stuck with another one of your train wreck threads that will forever be in cyberspace.

The sad part is you have the talent and know-how to make your own products and good products at that. Toddy runs your adjustable suspension kit on his Viper and likes it...your cat back system seems like it works well. Stop all this knock off crap and make some new and innovative products that I know you're capable of.
I just watched live a tsunami kill possibly hundreds of Japanese people tonight. Life is too short to copy the ideas of others when you're capable of so much more yourself.


George
 

VicTxV10

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So you are the only person that believes all the lies and BS?? Especially the sending Belangers to China.

Are you posting for Toddy now that he has been caught in so many lies?



Here is some reading material :lmao:


I'm not posting for Toddy, I'm posting as a consumer who was sold your fake headers. I asked you two times to clarify that if the clones were not China made, were they just prototypes. You refused to answer the question and instead posted that I need to read an "internet forums for dummies" book. Wow Steve, REALLY?? As a Viper owner who would write a check to a vendor....REALLY Steve, your calling me stupid??

OK, so lets move on since your not going to answer and lets just call them American made knock offs. You stated that the 5 into 1 is not a new idea, been around for years. Dodge wants a header for the ACRX. There is already a GREAT Tri-Y header on the market for Vipers so American Racing designs a 5 into 1 for the Gen4 heads, does some testing to make sure it will fit/work and then presents to SRT engineers. Testing was done again by Arrow and American Racing headers were chosen. I'm going to guess here that BBG must have had some input, even if it may have just been a financial investment in the R&D, Research and Development in case you don't know what that means. I say this because I see BBG welded on the side of the headers and not Vipair. Again, as a consumer, this is what I see. So up to now, all the investment and testing in this has come from American Racing, Arrow, SRT/Dodge and BBG.

The Gen4 engine has been out since 08, it's not new but you never offered this style of header before. Is it because you wanted someone else to do the R&D, there is that word again, so you could then copy? Low and behold, Vipair now offers the Viper community a 5 into 1 ACRX style header for Gen4 cars and we even have for Gen 2 & 3 only our flange is thicker. Ah, see, you and I see R&D differently. I stated earlier what it means but for you, it's more like Receive & Duplicate. So, from your R&D, what is the buyer getting for the money?? I can see I would save $200. Any testing on your headers? You don’t even list a manufacture for your headers. The ones I received had all labels removed. I could see where they used to be, wonder why they were removed? Another owner on here paid $1000 to re-work his Vipair headers to make them right. Wow, some savings????

If this is how you operate, get some of those $200 Woodhouse motor mounts, some $3500 KW2's, those $625 carbon fiber rocker stone guards that JonB developed and maybe even some StopTech two piece slotted rotors and start knocking out some more fake products we can buy to save a few dollars. I mean, where do you draw the line as a vendor in copying someone else's designs and relabel Vipair?

And what really ***** is that you have the only copy of the front splitter that looks like the OEM Aero one from SRT. You did a fantastic job on this copy. This is the last piece I need to complete my car and I will not buy from you now, even though you sell a lot cheaper than anyone else.

Murray
 

TowDawg

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So these M&M headers are $1395. That's getting into the "reasonable" range. Maybe I'll get a set of these for the RT/10.

M&M Performance Gen2

I've got M&M's on my Gen III and love them! Matt at M&M was a complete pleasure to deal with as well.
I was in kind of a tough spot , as my motor was ready to go back in the car after over 3 month and THEN I get a call from the dealership letting me know my stockers were cracked. I had already been thinking about headers anyway and knew I was probably going with M&M, so I called Matt and said I needed a set ASAP. He was going to ship them that day, but found a small dent in one of the pipes, and refused to send me a product anything short of perfect. He had a guy stay over that night and replace the bent tube.
I was planning shipping NDA now on my UPS account (I get a big discount), but the UPS store refused to use my account number. I knew my cost for NDA from Matt for these headers and he knew I needed them badly. Matt shipped them NDA from the UPS store and paid the difference himself of what my cost would have been and what the acutal cost was because he knew I needed them. I think it was like a $70 difference.
I offered to at least split the $70 with him, but we would not hear of it because he had delayed the shipping by a day in order to make sure my headers were perfect. I emailed him a couple of times about it, but never heard back from him, so I went ahead sent him the $35 on PayPal anyway.
I don't want to knock BBG or Belanger at all, as I'm sure they have great products and customer service as well. I can say from personal experience though that Matt went above and beyond for me.
 

plumcrazy

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BBG doesnt make headers, they promote and sell AR headers i thought. did BBG actually do and pay for this R&D or did AR ?

same goes for their clutches to my knowledge
 

VicTxV10

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BBG doesnt make headers, they promote and sell AR headers i thought. did BBG actually do and pay for this R&D or did AR ?

same goes for their clutches to my knowledge

From American Racing:
American Racing Headers developed this product using their “NO COMPROMISES” method of engineering and construction to insure outstanding horsepower and torque gains throughout the RPM band. Using all T304 stainless steel manufactured in the USA, they have produced headers, high flow cat assemblies and cat delete pipes of the highest quality.

Your correct, BBG promotes and sells AR headers along with DC Performance, Archer Racing, Roe Racing and AC Performance. This does not give Vipair the right to buy and copy does it?
 

plumcrazy

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my only point there was that BBG does NOT design anything. same as vipair. IIRC AR copied someones design

an original header design would be pretty tough to do....
 

shooter_t1

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Yes, and $1895 for Gen4 and they do look great. A lot less expensive than the other tri-y header on the market.

Sounds like a much more reasonable price.:2tu:. I now know where I will get my Gen 4 header's, thanks. Is there a site where I can look at them?
 

plumcrazy

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in BBG's defense, his are stainless compared to mild steel. there is a huge difference in material cost
 

VicTxV10

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my only point there was that BBG does NOT design anything. same as vipair. IIRC AR copied someones design

an original header design would be pretty tough to do....

Point taken. Maybe AR has a private label program and BBG is paying to have their logo put on the headers?:dunno: There has to be a reason why their logo is on there?

If so, why didn't Steve mention that? He could have had the same proven headers with his logo or none at all. But instead, he chose to make copies of one that was already in production for the Gen4 heads.
 

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