Are TT Vipers time-bombs?
- Thread starter Alexarz
- Start date
My exact point Tony.The guy is looking to make over 1000 rwhp using cheap parts .
Darbgnik
Enthusiast
Is it not impossible to make a great sandwich without "Grey Poupon" mustard?
Not saying cheap out, just not use designer brands?
But what do I know, I'm nowhere close to an expert on such things.
Not saying cheap out, just not use designer brands?
But what do I know, I'm nowhere close to an expert on such things.
Definately you can use any brands (quality you want )At 1000 RWHP one part fails (fatique ,metal stress ect )you can throw the whole motor away.You get what you pay for =top quality is top quality and for the prices hes posting simply not getting itIs it not impossible to make a great sandwich without "Grey Poupon" mustard?
Not saying cheap out, just not use designer brands?
But what do I know, I'm nowhere close to an expert on such things.
My quote was for same. Headwork by Greg Good using my stock heads. But if I were going to go for 1000rwhp I'd be looking at Strykers.
If you can have a quality build for your price and not have the engine grenade on you than you are THE MAN. I hope it works out for you. Have you talked to the folks at Underground Racing or DLM to find out what their 1000+HP builds consist of just to get an idea of what they're using and why?
Also, get the 900rwhp goal in writing from the shop you're using. I've heard too many stories of Viper owners being told certain HP numbers only to spend a fortune and not get close to the hyped up numbers. This being a good sign of supposed tuners not knowing what they're doing.
In turn iam sure if you were to call Dave and Danny Crower they could sell you NICE forged Rods for 50 each retail .Are these rods meant to be used in a 1000 hp plus motor not if you want the engine to stay together for any period of time .The same with the pistons .CP makes all different qualitys .It all comes down to power level and intended usage
Add another grand at least to the above -that power level upgraded main billet caps MUST be added to secure crank and they are at least 1000 min installed
Alexarz
Enthusiast
I'll find out exactly what parts they are using in that build but like I said, they already built a Viper near my house and the owner has been driving the car for quite some time and he is notorious for not being delicate with his cars. His Viper has dynoed over 1300 rwhp on race gas. He has definitely flog tested the build and it has held up. He told me that they used all top notch parts but I will find out exactly what they were and get back to you with specifics. I can't fathom how pistons, rods, main bearings and some machining add up to 15k.
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
Last edited:
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
I plan to be over 1200 HP with a set of Greg Good heads. Heads and HP are the easy part. Driver and making good number on the track, that's the hard part
Alex it adds up fast(MANY MISC PARTS YOUR NOT THINKING of like a double timing chain ) and alot of the cost has to do with keeping the thing together at the power level you are looking for.For instance in a prior post i mentioned the specialized heavy duty main billet caps that are mandatory fpor motors in the 1000 plus range .Dealer cost on these caps is over 500 .From there the block has to be machined to accept them ect (another 5000 ) .Just for the hell of it call the CROWER tech line and get a ball park from Dave Crower as to the cost of Rods that can handle at least 125 hp per cylinder .Do the same with CP Pistons =indicate you need a forged Alum forced induction Viper Piston capable of handling 125 hp per cyl probably around 8.5 to 1 comp.They will not give you a jobber price but at least you will have a ball park .To complete the short block find out from you machine shop the ENTIRE labor cost (need to rebalence ECT )
Sorry cost to machine the block to accept upgraded caps is 500 not 5000
Looked through my old notes FOLLOWING are ball park figures parts top line short block assemply .Pistons ,Rings Rods =3000.Upgraded Main Billet Caps 500.Double Timing Chain 250.Full set gaskets and bearings 1100.Doing NOTHING with the crank your at approx 5000 PARTS COST ONLY WITHOUT any machine work labor,manafluxing ,metal hardning ect.Now add labor to disassemble,assemble,blueprint ,balence, magnoflux,install billet caps ect .If you decide to add a forged stroker crank add approx 6000 to the above or approx 600 to cut stock crank into a stroker.
Good deal and right on as far as cost go.
The previous quotes i gave are a few years old and closer to jobber cost as most machine shops will of coarse try to make money on parts.CP Pistons for example with rings jobber price are around 1500 .Crower rods Jobber price another 1500 .Total together 3000.It is very doubtful whoever Alex uses is going to pass the parts along to him at jobber
Disturbed
Viper Owner
My "new" short block was built by the "old" Racing Solutions.
All my motor needs for turbos are 8.5:1 cr pistons and a set of billet main caps. I'm ready for 1500rwhp.
All my motor needs for turbos are 8.5:1 cr pistons and a set of billet main caps. I'm ready for 1500rwhp.
If you dont mind me asking what EXACT parts(brands and model numbers ) are used in the build sheet .Is the engine assembled or apart because machine work is need in replacing the pistons(Complete rebalence ect ) and adding the upgraded Billet Caps
Actually a fun thread...
No way your getting quality with a price of 6k..
Here's my build..
Carrillo Rods 3k
CP Pistons 1500
Forget around how much rings are..
Mains 800
ARP Main Studs 300
ARP Head studs 400
ATI Pro balancer: 550
Viper Specialty Swing Arm Oil Pan: 1000, sweet setup by the way..
Also figure, head gaskets... which are a couple hundred..
I went with Strykers Race Heads and cam.. you don't want to know the cost of that... more than your build... I would like to see what they are going to do with your heads....especially for that cash...
None of these prices even includes labor or machining... machining alone is going to cost you a couple grand...
I also cryo'd everything also... But that was done for free...
I don't agree with some on this board about some tuners, as I didn't have the same luck with them..
The viper is not a complicated motor.. any new mustang is 10 times more complex then the viper motor is...its a push rod for goodness sakes....
Joe
No way your getting quality with a price of 6k..
Here's my build..
Carrillo Rods 3k
CP Pistons 1500
Forget around how much rings are..
Mains 800
ARP Main Studs 300
ARP Head studs 400
ATI Pro balancer: 550
Viper Specialty Swing Arm Oil Pan: 1000, sweet setup by the way..
Also figure, head gaskets... which are a couple hundred..
I went with Strykers Race Heads and cam.. you don't want to know the cost of that... more than your build... I would like to see what they are going to do with your heads....especially for that cash...
None of these prices even includes labor or machining... machining alone is going to cost you a couple grand...
I also cryo'd everything also... But that was done for free...
I don't agree with some on this board about some tuners, as I didn't have the same luck with them..
The viper is not a complicated motor.. any new mustang is 10 times more complex then the viper motor is...its a push rod for goodness sakes....
Joe
Your prices are dead on exactly correct .Can a botton end be put together using forged parts for a few grand of coarse .BUT the motors owner realize that the parts they are using are probably not even mid level grade and no where near capable of handling 1000 rwhp.Actually a fun thread...
No way your getting quality with a price of 6k..
Here's my build..
Carrillo Rods 3k
CP Pistons 1500
Forget around how much rings are..
Mains 800
ARP Main Studs 300
ARP Head studs 400
ATI Pro balancer: 550
Viper Specialty Swing Arm Oil Pan: 1000, sweet setup by the way..
Also figure, head gaskets... which are a couple hundred..
I went with Strykers Race Heads and cam.. you don't want to know the cost of that... more than your build... I would like to see what they are going to do with your heads....especially for that cash...
None of these prices even includes labor or machining... machining alone is going to cost you a couple grand...
I also cryo'd everything also... But that was done for free...
I don't agree with some on this board about some tuners, as I didn't have the same luck with them..
The viper is not a complicated motor.. any new mustang is 10 times more complex then the viper motor is...its a push rod for goodness sakes....
Joe
viperDoug
Enthusiast
This is a great thread as I have been wondering about costs of TT. Those that have had UR build their TT, roughly what does it cost as I have no idea? I am not asking what you paid for it, but a ballpark. Are we talking 30k or 45k???
I would venture to say TRUE cost using all top line components (lol no 3000 bottom ends )probably is in the 25-35 grand range(alot of variables -computer used,stock crank ect ).I doubt any of the major league builders would get involved for that price though
I have repaired and tuned numerous twin turbo Vipers. For ultimate power output, nothing can touch them. The biggest problem is in the design. The placement of the turbos below the engine is problematic. Without proper oil return and tuning they just do not last. Oil leaks, smoking and oil consumption are common complaints. With a proper tune and oil sump pump system they can work well. Many need to be redesigned to last more than a few 1000 miles without problems. if you want 850 to 1000rwhp then they are the only way to go.
A good SC build up to 800rwhp is much more reliable and will require much less long term care. In my opinion, this is the best option.
If you have a twin turbo car with issues, we can help.
A good SC build up to 800rwhp is much more reliable and will require much less long term care. In my opinion, this is the best option.
If you have a twin turbo car with issues, we can help.
Thanks for the "real life" info. Since you do have experience with both... If you were going to build your Viper to 800 or so RWHP, would you go TT or S/C? Provided both options have the engine to support it. (i.e... forged internals, billet mains etc.)
Thanks in advance for your opinion.
good question.
having said that, i have a fully built motor with a S/C on it in that rwhp range. if i had it all to do over, id have a TT on it. less stress on the crankshaft alone is worth it in my opinion. and the extra 125 or so rwhp the S/C steals from me would be nice to have.
having said that, i have a fully built motor with a S/C on it in that rwhp range. if i had it all to do over, id have a TT on it. less stress on the crankshaft alone is worth it in my opinion. and the extra 125 or so rwhp the S/C steals from me would be nice to have.
I also have a fully built S/C gen 2. i know how that drives. I am trying to decide which way I am going to go with my 06 SS. I already have a Paxton Set up for the car. However, i came across an unbelievable deal on a complete TT drivetrain. The deal is done, I am just waiting for the final instructions on where to wire the money. BUT, like I said, I haven't sent the cash just yet. This is a 1200rwhp complete 76 mm TT setup. A stroked, forged "built" engine with G-Force trans, twin disc clutch, to Quaiffe with all supporting AEM, fuel system etc ...
Sounds great... I hope..
Joseph Dell
Enthusiast
Bottom line is that anytime you mod a car beyond a certain point, stuff breaks. It's been said before, but over 700-800rwhp, if you drive your car hard, stuff will break. And if you race, it will break even quicker!
Even with built drivetrains, engines, chassis, etc... you will break.
90% of the people that own high HP TT cars don't run them hard but once in a while if at all. Make a mental list... how many people that have them actually race them? Not many. I bet you have more fingers than you have more names. I know I do. That is also why turn-out at viper racing events tends to be low. Who wants to beat the crap out of an expensive car with anywhere between $0 in mods to $80k in mods?
TT's are awesome. But they also get built and then become ebay fodder very quickly.
And the twin disc clutches: no matter what anyone tells you, they are NOT "like" stock. this, right there, may take away from your enjoyment of the car.
my .02... having been around the block a few times. This isn't a diatribe on TT cars specifically, but on high HP set-ups on ANY car.
Bottom line is that anytime you mod a car beyond a certain point, stuff breaks. It's been said before, but over 700-800rwhp, if you drive your car hard, stuff will break. And if you race, it will break even quicker!
Even with built drivetrains, engines, chassis, etc... you will break.
90% of the people that own high HP TT cars don't run them hard but once in a while if at all. Make a mental list... how many people that have them actually race them? Not many. I bet you have more fingers than you have more names. I know I do. That is also why turn-out at viper racing events tends to be low. Who wants to beat the crap out of an expensive car with anywhere between $0 in mods to $80k in mods?
TT's are awesome. But they also get built and then become ebay fodder very quickly.
And the twin disc clutches: no matter what anyone tells you, they are NOT "like" stock. this, right there, may take away from your enjoyment of the car.
my .02... having been around the block a few times. This isn't a diatribe on TT cars specifically, but on high HP set-ups on ANY car.
Do you still have your TT car? If so, what would you have done, or would you do different after owning and drivng a high hp TT?
Any other TT owners please chime in on what "everday driving" is like.
Thanks in advance for any feedback. I am going back and forth and a TT set up is a lot of money...
1fastviper
Enthusiast
"With great power comes great responsibility"
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