BBK & X-Metal TB

[cash84]

Okay I did a search on both of these, and I didn't get enough response for me to even get one. I am bringing this up again. I get the idle hang with the stock TB. I was just goning to just take it off and smooth out the plates so it would stick again. Is this the only issue Viper owners were having? What were the real gains besides from the factory?


My goal is to try to squeeze out 550rwhp on my 06. I have mopar race exhaust, K & N full intake, SCT tuning (just ordered it). This should get me over 500rwhp no problem. I was thinking of headers, TB, Cam, with 110octane on a tune but switch tune once I go to 93. Inputs would be great on what other ideas to reach my goal without doing a build but mostly just bolting on.

 

[VicTxV10]

Idle hang is the only issue I had with my BBK. I never put it on a dyno to see what extra power it would create as I didn't like the idle hang when driving around town.

My 06 with corsa, hf cats, K&N and SCT 93 octane tuned on a dyno puts 471 to the rear tires. So adding the TB, headers should get you near or a little over 500. Not sure how much more you will get with a cam and 110 octane.

 

[YLW DRM2]

I was thinking about the same thing and made some reasearch and called few performance shops the gain is at most 12HP, but the idle hang is still an issue for both BBK and XMetal.

 

[Canyon707]

550Hp your dreaming. Your asking for bolt ons to give you that. I can tell you it's not going to happen. If it does cool then you have a very special motor. I have run the BBK that is really junk. I actuall have Victex10 BBK sitting on my bench waiting for a promised third replacement. I run the Xmetal which I have no problems with. K&N is ok but its not magic. headers? if you can take the noise to me its just to loud. If you run headers you need to tune the car for them. The SCT I want to try one myself. I am going to DC for a hands on tune and Dan told me he might be able to get about 15 more HP but, the overall tune will make the car just run better. Good luck. If you fail to get the power its time for some head work. BadBoysGarage in Sac has some very well built heads with top of the line components. I think with head work is the only way to get that power.

 

[Shandon]

Unfotunatly your mods won't ever get you to 550rwhp. I have about every mod in the book and 500-515rwhp is roughly about all you will see. That can change dyno to dyno but you have to do some real engine work to jump into 550-600rwhp and stay NA. I learned real quick that when you add bolt ons, the numbers dont add up together. Headers + Tune+throttle body+ KandN+NoCats+Corsa+Vec3 if all added together should give like 110rwhp...... I wish they did but they don't

Ok on the two TB's. I have both and have used both on the same viper. I don't like the BBK at all. The X-metal seems to give the car more bite when you hit the gas but overall HP power increase you won't feel. The bbk gave no change to the car for me at all. Seemed almost like stock. Hope that helps.

 

[cash84]

thanks for your input! I see that you guys didnt mention the cam and 110 fuel. with those two i was hoping it would get me near 550rwhp. I see that x-metal is the way to go. With only 10hp you wont feel it but its there. only way to feel it is do everything together. I put down 444.4rwhp 464ft/lb torque stock on a single roller dyno (not sure what kind). did k&n and race exhuast on a twin roller dyno and pulled 449rwhp dont remember the torque. I was like what happened and the shop told me that theres about 10% difference between the two. so just under 490rwhp. With those other mods, i figured it would hit 550rwhp. (if any typing error on here please excuse me, using this of my phone lol)

 

[Shandon]

thanks for your input! I see that you guys didnt mention the cam and 110 fuel. with those two i was hoping it would get me near 550rwhp. I see that x-metal is the way to go. With only 10hp you wont feel it but its there. only way to feel it is do everything together. I put down 444.4rwhp 464ft/lb torque stock on a single roller dyno (not sure what kind). did k&n and race exhuast on a twin roller dyno and pulled 449rwhp dont remember the torque. I was like what happened and the shop told me that theres about 10% difference between the two. so just under 490rwhp. With those other mods, i figured it would hit 550rwhp. (if any typing error on here please excuse me, using this of my phone lol)

The cam will give you some HP but if your going to do the cam (loads of work) then replace the heads with strykers and up the compression some. Then you will have some big power. I would be willing to bet that the shop was whispering sweet nothings to you you when they told you there was a 10% diff. so you would be happy. 10-15rwhp gain is about right for exhaust / air intake mod. Thats about a 20hp. Loose the cats if you want to make a good gain on the HP side though your will drop some in torque. Im not trying to be a downer on the numbers you want. I am just telling you from my expereince and I have a a$$ load of mods that 550RWHP wont ever happen with bolt ons

 

[Dan Cragin]

With a proper cam, head work, intake and merge headers and custom tune 550 to 580rwhp is possible.

The BBK throttle body is being re-tooled for new linkage (idle hang issue), once done I think this twin blade is the best.

 

[Canyon707]

With a proper cam, head work, intake and merge headers and custom tune 550 to 580rwhp is possible.

The BBK throttle body is being re-tooled for new linkage (idle hang issue), once done I think this twin blade is the best.

Dan, I have both TB's and am looking forward to the fixed BBK one if that ever happens. I do like my X-Metal so far the best. My buddy Todd from Sac is working on some heads for his monster Frankinstin Viper.
We both plan to come down for a tune once he gets his back together. We are curious about how much power we make. Wet flowing heads. What you listed here is what is needed that's for sure. A lot of work and money needed to bring it N/A to 550 + HP.

 

[ViperDreams]

I would just save your money and put on a s/c. Youre going to be close price wise with all those mods. I think you are setting yourself up for disapointment. 550rwhp is hard to do with bolt ons. I got 502 with just about everything you had listed accept for the cam. And that is not going to add 50rwhp.

 

[viperDoug]

With a proper cam, head work, intake and merge headers and custom tune 550 to 580rwhp is possible.

The BBK throttle body is being re-tooled for new linkage (idle hang issue), once done I think this twin blade is the best.

Dan,
What could someone expect to get all of this done for. I am not looking for your price, but are we talking $5k, $7k or more like $10k. I am a huge fan on NA cars and would rather have a little less hp that is natural vs a SC.
Thanks,
Doug

 

[Viper X]

Hey Guys,

Listen to Dan at DC on the hp / tq increase. One of our members with a 06 coupe just pulled 586 rwhp on Dan's dyno (which is about 5% lower than most others) with heads, cam, tune, headers, more compression, etc. Talk to Dan for details.

The Heads and low compression, i.e. 9.6 to 1, seem to be the limiting factor on the 03 / 06 engines.

On the BBK throttle body, I had some throttle "hang up" issues with my 06. I polished the blades and bore with 2000 sand paper and the issues went away.

FYI, I dropped my 06 coupe off at BBK a few weeks ago so that they could try their newest revision of the twin blade throttle body - so they are working on it.

Dan

 

[dipapa]

When I first began upgrading my naturally aspirated 05 Copperhead last year Todd at A&C Performance did produce fairly good hp and torque data on his Dyno Dynamics chassis Dynamometer.

Todd tuned my gen 3 on his dyno to 521rwhp 538rwtq

This was on the Dyno Dynamics which is relatively conservative in comparison to a Dyno jet. Dyno jet would be realistically 10-12rwhp higher.
Here were the upgrades I had.

VEC3 and Todd's Dyno Tune
American Racing 1 5/8" to 3" stepped w merge collectors
American Racing 200 cell cats
Stock mufflers (I did not want the car too loud)
BBK 67mm TB ( I actually hated this thing becasue it stuck but Todd modified it to work better
K&N Viper Intake kit
Quality wires
plugs (cant remember)
Unitrax 3.33 (dont think this does anything to increase power, car felt good, more lively though)

I believe with these mods and the addition of a good catback system and roller rockers you will get around 550rwhp with no other head work!!!

 

[Dan Cragin]

Our complete head, cam and exhaust packages for G3 engines increase rwhp from 100 to 180 depending on the choice of cam and exhaust. if you are starting from scracth with no mods, expect to pay about 13k for a complete package. This would include:

JM Stage 3 cylinder heads
Custom head gaskets
Modified intake manifold
Modified throttle body
High flow air filters
170 degree thermostat
Custom length pushrods
Adjustable timing gear
Billet Camshaft
Merge step headers
ARP exhaust hardware
Steel exhaust gaskets
Catayst and side exhaust
Custom JTEC tuning
Spark, plugs, fluids, filters, gaskets as needed

Options:

Jesel Rocker arms
Valve cover spacers
ARP Head studs
Low bleed lifters
Swing oil pan
Crankcase breather system
Short block upgrade

Engine is removed and disassembled to short block
Bearings and cylinders are inspected
Short block cleaned
Cylinder volume and combustion chamber volume determined
Heads milled for target compression
Camshaft centerlined/ degreed
Pushrod length and lifter preload determined
Ports matched to manifold and exhaust
Engine reinstalled
Exhaust fitted and welded as needed
Dynamometer tuned for 91 fuel/ Knock threshold determined air fuel optimized.

Depending on the mileage and age of the vehicle other parts may be required.

 

[dipapa]

Or in the addition to my above mods you can add a custon Paxton Supercharger kit and no motor work from Todd at A&C Performance and gain close to 300rwhp

My car went from 442rwhp stock to 733rwhp using Dyno Dynamics to quantify performance gains.

Its all in the Tune!!!

http://forums.viperclub.org/dyno-results/630478-05-paxton-dyno-733rwhp.html

YouTube - A&C Performance Supercharged Viper dyno - 733rwhp

 

[viperDoug]

Dan,
If it were your car, would you go the above NA route or would you just throw the paxton on it and be done?

 

[cash84]

reason i want to go N/A, i road race my viper. So N/A is the best choice for reliable. I dont have cats, thats why i mention full race mopar exhuast. What if I just converted the heads, and intake from the gen IV. custom the TB to make it work on the gen 3

 

[Twister]

I was after the same goal as you years ago and researched HEAVILY........

From what I read after numerous searching these were my findings...


-stock gen3 srt10=440 rwhp SAE

-KN filters=448 rwhp SAE

-basic after market exhaust=455 rwhp SAE

-remove cats and add straight pipe=470 rwhp SAE

-after market throttle body=475 rwhp sae

-aftermarket headers=490 rwhp sae

-tune=495 rwhp


THATS ME BEING AS HONEST AS I CAN......NOW YOUR GONN HAVE SOME GUYS HIT 450 RWHP BONE STOCK AND THEIR FINAL NUMBER WILL BE 505 RWHP....THEIRS EVEN A FEW HERE AND THEIR THAT HIT 460 RWHP SAE STOCK AND THEY WILL TOUCH 515 RWHP AFTER THE ABOVE MODS....

SOME HAVE ARROW REBUILDS THAT ARE A LIL BIT BETTER PUT TOGETHER...My car was an arrow rebuild and with just kn filters and roller rockers that car dynoed 459 rwhp...


On another note...Dont worry to much about dyno numbers...

Take a stock SRT10 that dynoed 440 rwhp to the drag strip and you'll run a 12.0 at 120 mph...

Throw on a tune...You'll dyno 445 rwhp but have much more under the curve..My old Viper hit 440 before the aem and then 445 rwhp after the aem..but was up to 30 rwhp under the curve higher in areas...

Then throw on a comp coupe cam...You will likely still only dyno like 448 rwhp with the tune and CC cam...Only 8 rwhp above stock...But take that car to the drag strip were you ran 12.0 at 120 mph in the stock srt10 and you will be very surprised when you run a 11.6 at 124 mph...


FWIW.....My rt10 was trapping 119 mph with bolt ons and 440 rwhp..I spent 2,600.00$ on an aem and was very disatisfied when the car only dynoed 5 rwhp higher at 445 rwhp...

the dyno shop showed me the 20-30 rwhp higher under the curve in areas and I just didnt care..

Then I hit the 1/4 mile and ran consitant 122's where I always ran consitant 119's...

My buddies 2005 nsx could give me a good run from 70-150 mph before the aem...After the aem it wasnt even a race any more..

 

[dipapa]

From my experience with my '05 from A&C performance installing and dyno tune on a load bearing dyno dynamics machine using 91 octane I gained about 30 rwhp at around 6000rpm

I went from 442rwhp completely stock

to 488rwhp w headers, 200c cats, stock mufflers, TB, k&n, wires, plugs.

To 521 with VEC3 and allot of dyno tune time.

I was present when all these dyno runs were performed on the same machine and by Todd. I am just stating what the numbers were. There was a huge difference in the liveliness, acceleration at high rpms and overall performance feel of the car with the VEC3. Todd did say my particular motor did well with allot of timing when sometimes some motors may not. I'm far from a tuner however I was present during all the raw data collection and many dyno runs.