C&D SRT review: uninspiring....

[Venom Lover]

I'm not sure how excited I am to spend a bunch of additional $$ for an SRT-10 vs. a Gen II RT/10 given the similarity in performance numbers, and especially given the blander styling of the SRT.

Here's a comparison of the SRT performance numbers from the November 2002 C&D review vs. performance numbers on a '98 RT/10 from the October 1997 C&D issue:

........... SRT....... RT
0-60....... 3.9....... 4.0
1/4 ET..... 12.0...... 12.2
skid pad... 1.0....... 0.97

Wow, what an unimpressive improvement.

Also, given the hypothesis that a lot of this redesign was to make the SRT more "user friendly" (i.e., vs. Vette or Porsche), the comment that the Vette at $33K less makes a better daily driver means that at least C&D doesn't think Dodge has made a big improvement in this area either.

I hate to say "I told you so," but I predicted previously that it was going to be a miracle if we saw 1/4 mile numbers deep in the 11's from the major car mags....

We were told that we'd be blown away by the reviews when they came out....But it hasn't happened so far....

 

[Frank 03SRT]

Wow. You really had to look hard to find those numbers. From 97 even. Just got a C&D and the numbers in the back of the mag show the 2/01 ACR at 4.3 and 12.6. Maybe it's the creampuff factor.

 

[Dunn]

You have to remember that someone who can actually pilot the viper with good skills can EASILY knock down high 11's, dont worry, the magazines will start hitting 11's some time.

 

[Viperrick]

Marko that picture was taken Sunday morning with a couple of the hotel guests taking a peak. All the VOI participants were at the autocross courses waiting for their chance for a drive in the new SRT. The lines were long and everyone had a smile on their face after they got out (well everyone who had a chance on the red course). The car handles unbelievably. I went in too hot at the inside switchback and couldn't believe that it made it through without a spin. Would have been multiple donuts in my old RT. Saw the head Barber instructor come out of this switchback smoking the tires to the next turn.

 

[singlemd4u]

Motor trend magazine has worse times than C and D. And knocked the car too! Usually car mags praise a new car at first just to satisfy the manufacture and create some excitement. This is the first time in a very long time that I'm seeing a car magazine rag a new car right from the get go.

 

[onerareviper]

Is this the November issue of Motortrend? The newest issue I have is October, and no review of the SRT10.

 

[Venom Lover]

Maxwedge,
Hey -- how's it going? Lunch some Friday? To be fair, the SRT is rated at 525 ft-lbs.

Frank,
I didn't hunt hard at all. I went on-line and looked up the only Gen II RT/10 review I could find in C&D to be fair in the skid-pad comparison, and what I found was that one.

Dunn,
Yeah, but magazines have driven the GTS to 11's, so it's pretty unimpressive to me if they're going to have to struggle to drive an SRT in the 11's. Where are all these "blow you away" performance numbers we were promised?

Sounds like maybe Maxwedge is right, the only real advantage of the SRT is the brakes??? Best bet is Stoptech or some other package on a GTS -- then you have the looks as well as the performance....

--Mike

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Venom Lover on 10-03-2002 at 09:11 PM</font>

 

[SRT10]

Mike, it sure looks like your determined to dis the SRT no matter what its #s' are.

You must be registered for see images

The same C&D mag has a GTS ACR at 0-60= 4.3 and 12.6 in the 1/4 (page 174) (like Frank said). And while your on that page,in C&D,try to find a car in there with better 0-60. There's only a tie its the Porsche 911 TT. None are better in the 1/4 mile time! Impressive..hell yeah! When Corvette Chief Engr Dave Hill would boast that the Z06 is a 4.0 second car the car mags proved it wasn't. Not one mag was able to reproduce that 0-60 time of 4 sec flat that Chevy wanted. It is very impressive that C&D has it in print, the SRT-10 is 0-60 in LESS than 4 seconds! WAY TO GO DODGE AND PVO!!

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[Venom Lover]

SRT10,

No, I am not determined to dis the SRT no matter what. I have a 2003 on order with Woodhouse, so I'm hoping it will live up to expectations.

Let me be frank: the SRT styling doesn't live up to my expectations. Then we were promised that "performance was #1 for the SRT" and that performance numbers in the mags would blow us away. I'm sorry, 12.0 in the 1/4 and 4.0 0-60 (where did you get &lt;4 sec?) does not "blow me away". 11.6 in the 1/4 and 3.7 sec 0-60 would blow me away. Meanwhile, the Edmunds review says "it wasn't instantly apparent that the new Viper was any quicker...."

These C&D numbers tell me to put a brake kit on a GTS and enjoy the best of both worlds (styling and performance).

Oh, I'm sorry, while I'm ranting, where is the promised 1.15g on the skid pad?

BTW, your argument that the Z06 didn't live up to expectation (at least in 0-60) is interesting. Do these C&D numbers mean that the SRT is not living up to expectation either? (Expectations, as stated on p.17 of the latest Viper Quarterly and elsewhere: 0-60 &lt;4 sec, 1/4 mile &lt;12 sec, 1.15 g skid pad.)

Most distressing is the fact that C&D tends to have some of the best performance numbers. You watch: the R&T numbers will be worse....

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Venom Lover on 10-03-2002 at 10:16 PM</font>

 

[SRT10]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Venom Lover:
I'm sorry, 12.0 in the 1/4 and 4.0 0-60 (where did you get &lt;4 sec?) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
These are your numbers Mike, look in your first post.(Also C&Ds' numbers). These are the 4 main goals of PVO for the SRT-10.
0-100-0 in under 13.2 sec, 0-60 in less than 4 sec, 0-100 in under 10 secs and a 1/4 mile in under 12 secs. C&D confirmed 3 of them (the 1/4 mile wasn't under 12.0). The SRT-10 is Americas' most powerful production sports car!

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[Snakester]

I think that generally Motor Trend and especially Popular Science usually have the best drivers, uh I mean the best numbers.

-Dean.

 

[Frank 03SRT]

Just received my C&D. It was funny but somewhat disheartening. Bump steer, hot sidesills, rough ride, rattles everywhere, performance not what we envisioned, industrial shifter, Corvette half as hard to drive, etc. Waited 2 years to hear this, plus reports from Automible look very similar, plus another post says MT will be reporting much the same. In my opinion, C&D basically made light of the car - except for performance.

Maybe this is what you get with a basic race car for the street, but I had hoped that the first articles would be more positive. The C&D report is about as negative as reports on our current models. Maybe there are so many supercars out there now that car mags can poo-poo what they test much more easily.

Dodge was limited in their budget, so maybe is this the result. You know Dodge just wanted to adapt the RT to be a true convertible until they noticed that most all panels would need to be changed, so with that limited budget, they did what the could.

I know I really liked (as did most others) the test drive at VOI, but maybe I couldn't tell much by lapping on a Neon autocross course (rattles, bump steer, whatever). Sure noticed the sidesill heat though.

Is there any good news out there? Help me understand!

 

[Hans Christian]

OK, I have taken my flame suit on !!!

YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF WHINERS (not all but many of you) !!!

Sorry guys but I am just about finally ready to puke over all these cry babies there seems to be around here.

Why do I say that - well, most of you continue to form an opinion based on somebody else's statement, comment, test etc.. - GET REAL, be your self and go see it, feel it, drive it, run the guts out of it, compare it to your old ride and then you should decide whether you think it is worth anything to you or NOT. An opinion based on that will have my full support and respect (I have seen it twice in person but have yet to drive it - I love what I have seen this far).

I had to say something - otherwise I would have puked all over my keyboard. Keep the faith !

NB: I love the current design (GEN I+II) but I equally love GEN III and I have one on order.

Ok now you can flame me

Best regards

 

[SRTRICK]

As long as everyone is whining, I'll pitch in too. It doesn't sound to me like Car & Driver knows what bump steer is. Their description of the handling doesn't sound like bump steer, more like the handling typical of any car with aggressive alignment and extremely sticky tires. Even a car with perfect bump steer characteristics will change line when hitting a *** hole and will tend to follow the tire grooves in a traffic lane.

Whatever.

 

[slaughterj]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maxwedge:
hey single
you got a bigger pic of you Icon? Wow she looks hot!!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hmm, maybe this thread will get as good as the last one that discussed that pic

 

[Janni]

Well, after actually DRIVING the SRT-10 and my GTS back to back at VOI - I can tell you the changes are AMAZING.

Maybe those magazine staffers have had their skills softened to the point of oblivion after all these years of testing the best minivan - SUV - luxo-cruiser barge and have forgotten what a real sports car should be like.

The power that gets put to the pavement in this car is outrageous. The suspension is AMAZING - the lateral and acceleration grip made me think about how hard I'd have to try to break this thing loose. The brakes are also outstanding - take a look at the 70-0 numbers - anyone else notice that they are BETTER than the Porsche? A very impressive acheivement, especially since real drivers know that its not just throwing a new set of Brembos on the car - its major vehicle dynamics work to get the car to comply, not dive and stick like that.

The interior is GREAT - seats are the best out there - felt like a slightly modified leather covered race seat. MGW will take care of the awkward shift knob- they always do... As for rattles, I drove the car with the top up and I did not feel any rattles - compared to my GTS the car was tight and solid - getting back into my car was almost a rude awakening. The SRT is EASY to drive FAST. The sills are still hot- and even wider now, but that's a small compromise.

Styling - always subjective, but you really cannot accurately form an opinion about the car until you see it in person and next to a current car. The new bodywork is much curvier than what we had seen in the past. The car DOES look evolutionary from the current car. The scale in pictures does not allow you to feel the mass of the car. It is NO S2000, I can assure you. And while not as outrageous as the current car, it is a ton more livable on a daily basis.

I was up in the air about the car - I felt the performance would be "better" but I did not expect it to be THAT MUCH BETTER - it's amazingly better. Heart stoppingly better. So much so that after a (too) short drive, I have decided that I will have one...

No one left the autocross drive unimpressed. Too bad those magazine guys have lost the ability to enjoy a sports car....

 

[Hans Christian]

Janni,

Thank you !!!

 

[dblankenbaker]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I was up in the air about the car - I felt the performance would be "better" but I did not expect it to be THAT MUCH BETTER - it's amazingly better. Heart stoppingly better. So much so that after a (too) short drive, I have decided that I will have one...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Ditto"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Styling - always subjective<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After I got out of the SRT from my test drive (on the long course), I turned around and the thing looked absolutely gorgeous!! Kind of like a woman who isn't spectacular looking, yet once you've bonded with her on an emotional level she's the most beautiful woman in the world, to you. I look at pictures now and my heart races!

 

[Frank 03SRT]

Thanks, Janni. Coming from you this give me renewed vigor. The same vigor I had from VOI, but diluted by these mags. Why do they enjoy dumping on the Viper so much? I thought the car was beautifully light and responsive, and I heard NO rattles at all, and this car had been DRIVEN. Just don't understand.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

I do not know how to say it, but you need to drive against one of these critics to understand. They are accustomed to cars that drive FOR them, not cars they HAVE to drive.

 

[Janni]

Max,
Thanks - didn't see you at VOI. Didn't see you spending a couple of hours off and on talking to Herb Helbig about the handling and braking of the new car. Your assessment of the realites of braking is poor, at best. The C&D report on supercars - one of which include the Stop Tech equipped Apex Lethal 750 reported braking from 150-0 at 670 feet - great numbers but 30 feet LONGER than a Porsche equipped with an entirely STOCK brake system. Geez, Stoptech has had more than a few weeks to make that happen - so why aren't they equal and better???

Oh, I'll let you go as I am sure your phone is ringing off the hook from all the car companies trying to get your brake system knowledge that has seemingly escaped everyone for over a hundred years...

 

[Mike Brunton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mako:
Mike B:

Grow up and learn to read--none of your comments warrant a response.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So why did you respond then?

Mako, you need to deal with the fact that your opinion is one of a Z06 owner. You pretend to love the Vipers, but we've seen your veiled shots at them over here and on the other site too. Your comment "I cancelled my order after I saw how ugly it was" would be like me saying "I hate the new Enzo Ferrari... it was so ugly I called the dealer and told them to cancel my order". See what I mean? Probably not - but the facts still remain... you are not an SRT buyer, so your commentary should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[getbit]

I drove the SRT and was very impressed. I think is surpasses the current RT in all ways except EXTERIOR styling. The SRT was awesome to watch flying around the larger autocross track built for the Vipers. The times they were turning were much better than the GENI/II cars that ran earlier. Instructors were on hand to drive GEN II and III cars. Sunday evening, some guys had a black SRT and a black RT in various poses next to each other. They both looked great. I have a black car on order but love the silver too.
Either way, my 2001 GTS is here to stay. Best of both worlds!

 

[SRT10]

Here's the best of both worlds!

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[Venom Lover]

Hans et al,
I appreciate that you love the SRT and will stand by it regardless of what happens. I'm glad you're happy how things are turning out with the SRT. I, however, am ambivalent at best. Sorry if this is going to make you puke again.

Fact is: SRT styling is "average" at best. We were told by the lords of the Viper nation not to fear, because the performance numbers would make up for all styling sins. Here's a quote from Mr. Houss:

"The SRT-10 demand will increase dramatically (even within our highly respected group of naysayers) as the true performance numbers are revealed. This car was designed with ONE goal in mind. ULTIMATE performance, and as was discussed previously, that is why the FIRST concept car of the next generation Viper was the GTS/R. Our friends at Team Viper agreed that if they design the Track Car first, with a "field of dreams" list of performance criteria, then they could build the ultimate, never to be paralleled production car."

Well, now the true performance numbers are being revealed, and they're not blowing my mind. Certainly not to the point where I feel sacrificing styling was warranted.

I'm glad Brunton et al think everyone who goes to the track will be pulling low 11's in their SRTs, but it ain't gonna happen, IMO.

Anyway, I will reserve final judgment until I drive one, but I don't see how that's going to happen until I drop nearly $90K to buy one....It's not like you'll be able to take one for a test drive for at least a year.

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Venom Lover on 10-04-2002 at 09:03 PM</font>

 

[Mike Brunton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Venom Lover:

I'm glad Brunton et al think everyone who goes to the track will be pulling low 11's in their SRTs, but it ain't gonna happen, IMO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When did I say everyone will be able to run low 11's? That's not going to happen... but not everyone can run mid 11's in their GTS now. It's a bell curve.

I'm disappointed in the numbers produced by the magazines. If the car *****, then it *****. But we can all either buy it or not buy it. All the postulating and presumption that the car ***** is aggravating... if anyone doesn't want to buy it, they can refuse delivery and I am sure someone else will want it. If folks would be happier with a GTS with a supercharger, then go ahead and do that. I don't see how the Viper which runs the slalom quicker, and brakes shorter, and accelerates quiker, can run slower on the road course... but they say it does. Or maybe we need to see a few more tests until we pass judgement?

 

[genXgts]

11.97, 3.89 Rag Test


until these guys get their hands on an SRT and do some apples to apples with drivers that know how to drive I shall remain somewhat quiet performance wise..........anything starting with a 12 will not cut it considering what was done to the body to achieve it.

That said this GenIII introduction has to be the most controversial roll out of any car since I have been following the sports car scene.
National post had an article today and spent the first 4 paragraphs explaining how no one likes the car, and reportedly even some Viper owners. I'll try and find a link, later in the article he laments the lack of power seats and power top in a car costing this much?

The lack of enthusiasm towards this car has now spread to the mainstream public. Autoshow, the street, from car enthusiasts and not, Viper owners or not, it's going to be interesting how this all pans out in the end........

 

[Venom Lover]

GenXgts,
Amen to what you said.

Mike,
You said: "Viper customers pull 11.6's at 120mph. The SRT will pull low 11's at 123-124mph in customers hands... fact....deal with it."

I'm sorry, but that statement makes it sound like "Any Joe Blow customer will achieve low 11's in the SRT". I say it ain't happening. Drag racing gods like you will achieve numbers better than in the magazine by some number of tenths. So *maybe* you will have an 11.5 time slip to brag about, if you are lucky. But let's face it: it looks like the average driver (e.g., me) will be seeing 12-second time slips in the SRT. *Yawn*

Go back to Joe's comment that I quoted above. Ask yourself honestly whether "SRT demand is increasing dramatically" now that the "true performance numbers are revealed."

I'm glad you are honest enought to say you are disappointed by the magazine reviews.

I promise I will be honest enough when I take delivery of mine to come on here and eat crow if I love the SRT and think that it kicks ASP over my GTS's performance.

--Mike

 

[Janni]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maxwedge:

Well since this has turned into a ******* contest Id like to say thanks for the Sarcasm.
For your Info
StopTech is in my back yard and there are SEVERAL Vipers in the area that run their breaks on and off the track. Ya think I might have run into one or two of the guys involved with them?
What do you think?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing against StopTech - however, they were NOT able to beat a STOCK Porsche system, so I have to say that is not an optimal total brake system. The fact that the new Viper beats Porsche 70-0 as tested by the car mags is notable. And it goes to show that it is NOT just about getting the calipers right (which StopTech is doing with the current RT and GTS) - it's suspension geometry playing a role in overall stopping ability. Calipers will get you part of the way there - suspension gets the rest.

Sarcasm added for your benefit since you seem to think the improved braking is no big deal and that StopTech has already acheived optimal / gold standard braking for Vipers, when in fact, they have not. If they had - that stock Porsche system would have been in second place for braking.... not 30 feet better.

 

[onerareviper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Furthermore, did anyone see the new Nissan Z race car you can buy for $75k (race ready), with 450hp at about 2400lbs? AWESOME!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO! Please tell me where I can find information about this car. I did a web search and came up empty. Sounds incredible.