Car&Driver:ZR1 beats the Viper...again

[Dom426h]

This is sort of the way I thought about my Gen II's performance and, after modding my Gen III, the way I also think about it. Am I wrong? I thought that this is what the original Viper concept was about.

Yes you are wrong.(currently)

Back-in-the-day you were right.
Back then it was simple to make a Gen1 Viper with a 400hp V10 that bested the 300hp C4 Vette.
Back then it was simple to make a Gen2 Viper with a 450hp V10 that bested the 350hp C5 Vette.

Now we are nearing the limit of power for several reasons including(but not limited to) the ability to put the power down, government restrictions, & common sense.
Think about it... We are now talking about taking the power level of a C5 vette(which was a pretty awesome car in its day) and doubling it. ....i'll repeat: DOUBLING IT

We now live in the era where a lot of sports cars are reaching ten 10ths. The gap is so tight its tough to crown any one since all the other variables such as track condisions and drivers can be the difference between 1st,2nd,3rd,ect...
The Kings are the owners hitting the drag strip and setting records
The kings are the owners at the trackdays tearing up the road course

 

[TowDawg]

The problem with that is that the ZR1 was already pulling on Viper in the qtr mile too. Look at the MPH.

 

[SnakeBitten]

The problem with that is that the ZR1 was already pulling on Viper in the qtr mile too. Look at the MPH.

Exactly. I think most wouldn't have a problem conceding a straight line loss for a win on the road course. But here we have a loss on both accounts. The road course loss is the worst and most embarassing to me.

Also the mags ARE testing the right Viper against the ZR1. The GTS trim is the true match up for the ZR1 as they are both GT cars. The lighter SRT Viper would be more akin to the Z06. Bottom line is todays GTS is not the best American car in the GT or sports car class in the straights or twisties even against yesterdays ZR1. Come on SRT put the proper tire and brake package on this car before the next review and stop the bleeding while Stryker still has a pulse. Please.....

 

[Vooodoo ACR]

With the new 3.55 gears the viper pulls 4th gear to 138 mph, then it shifts to 5th gear with a .77 ratio. IT FALLS ON ITS FACE.
That is why the 0-150 is slower than the Gen IVs. The older vipers can pull 4th to 160+.

The ZR1 has better 5 th gear ratio and less drop in RPMs from 4th to 5th. after 135 mph is coming on ******* the viper.

Weird thing is I noticed that when playing Forza. The ZR1 runs the new Viper down in Forza because of the gear ratios. I know it's just a game, but a lot of real world data (like gear ratios are aero) are fed into it.

 

[Fatboy 18]

What exactly did you guys expect. The Viper weighs more and has less power. When I first pointed this out, I was told, yes but, the Vette has a supercharger and the Viper is NA. I always figured the Viper needs to be a statement car and should come out with 700 HP and blow everything else away and really kick butt like it did when it first came out, when nothing else was close.

Unfortunately with these past 2 articles, the Viper definitely has made a statement. Just not sure it was the statement that they were looking for.

I think you hit the Nail on the head with this post. A new car and we were all expecting big numbers, Sadly the figures are so tight there is no statement to be made ......Apart from 2nd place and 'if yer ain't first yer last'

 

[Moundir]

With the new 3.55 gears the viper pulls 4th gear to 138 mph, then it shifts to 5th gear with a .77 ratio. IT FALLS ON ITS FACE.
That is why the 0-150 is slower than the Gen IVs. The older vipers can pull 4th to 160+.

The ZR1 has better 5 th gear ratio and less drop in RPMs from 4th to 5th. after 135 mph is coming on ******* the viper.

Just checked the speed chart on fbody gears and with a 6400rpm limit the new viper can pull 4th to 147mph! The old one at 6200rpms pulls to 168! Huge difference! That gap is only going to get bigger as the speeds get higher! Not good for you street racers out there

 

[swexlin]

Yes you are wrong.(currently)

Back-in-the-day you were right.
Back then it was simple to make a Gen1 Viper with a 400hp V10 that bested the 300hp C4 Vette.
Back then it was simple to make a Gen2 Viper with a 450hp V10 that bested the 350hp C5 Vette.

Now we are nearing the limit of power for several reasons including(but not limited to) the ability to put the power down, government restrictions, & common sense.
Think about it... We are now talking about taking the power level of a C5 vette(which was a pretty awesome car in its day) and doubling it. ....i'll repeat: DOUBLING IT

We now live in the era where a lot of sports cars are reaching ten 10ths. The gap is so tight its tough to crown any one since all the other variables such as track condisions and drivers can be the difference between 1st,2nd,3rd,ect...
The Kings are the owners hitting the drag strip and setting records
The kings are the owners at the trackdays tearing up the road course

This is best post in this whole thread. We are pushing up against the laws of physics here with most modern cars.

 

[09 Venom]

How many guys here drive to 150mph on the streets. I hope none. Going to work today (a 15 minute drive ) I saw at least 5 Corvettes. Couldn't even tell which models they were they look similar. The Gen V is the fastest Viper ever made and with a lot more refinement than previous gens. (it's about darn time). I cant believe so many EXISTING Viper owners are speaking negatively about the new car. Has there ever been a magazine that liked the Viper. Hardly any. I will hold my opinions until I drive the new Viper. From what both mags claim it is still very much true to its roots. It is just as fast up until the 1/4 mile as the zr1. Don't know any drag strips that do 1/2 mile or 0-150 mph runs. I think the exclusiveness alone is worth the entry price for the Viper.

 

[bushido]

What kills me is how quickly the mags went from loving the new seats to hating it. More seat time and more comprehensive tests with these last two reviews I guess. I dont remember ever hearing bad reviews on Ferrari's versions of these seats. Did they remove even more padding for Viper duty?

I don't think there's anything wrong with those seats. It's the combination of the harsh suspension and chassis making it feel uncomfortable..

This all said the MR suspension on the ZR1 is tough to beat on the track and street for performance, confidence and comfort no matter the competition..

Yes the MSRC suspension is real good. It has been licensed by Ferrari for their current road cars,and Audi R8 too..

 

[ViperSmith]

I think all need to realize what is going on. No longer can you just slap a motor on a car and build a high performance machine. This isn't 1992 again when the original Viper debuted and trashed the competition.

We are In an amazing day and age of extreme performance - where the bar is set higher than ever before.

The new Viper, by all accounts, was done on a shoe string budget As a project of passion by engineers at SRT. It wasn't funded as a new Ferrari would be, as the marines say, do more with less.

I think in the next few years, you'll see SRT tweak the overall package. They had to start somewhere, and it is a great start - no matter what anyone says. It isn't eating mature ZR1's, but id guess by the 2015 model, it will be.

Sure, two seconds slower than the ZR1 right now, but it eats the lunch of so many more expensive super cars.

We are in an amazing age of vehicle performance, of which most of us will never be able to fully appreciate because we aren't that good of drivers.

If you want something to impress teenagers with due to magazine stats, go buy the car that does that.

If you want a Gen V because it speaks to you, buy that.

If you think the Gen V is garbage, call up one of the dodge dealers with brand new, never sold 2010 Vipers on their lot.

As Louie CK says, everything is amazing and no one is happy. We are living in an amazing time, enjoy it. In a decade we maybe relegated to soulless electric motors.

 

[stingray23]

I think all need to realize what is going on. No longer can you just slap a motor on a car and build a high performance machine. This isn't 1992 again when the original Viper debuted and trashed the competition.

We are In an amazing day and age of extreme performance - where the bar is set higher than ever before.

The new Viper, by all accounts, was done on a shoe string budget As a project of passion by engineers at SRT. It wasn't funded as a new Ferrari would be, as the marines say, do more with less.

I think in the next few years, you'll see SRT tweak the overall package. They had to start somewhere, and it is a great start - no matter what anyone says. It isn't eating mature ZR1's, but id guess by the 2015 model, it will be.

Sure, two seconds slower than the ZR1 right now, but it eats the lunch of so many more expensive super cars.

We are in an amazing age of vehicle performance, of which most of us will never be able to fully appreciate because we aren't that good of drivers.

If you want something to impress teenagers with due to magazine stats, go buy the car that does that.

If you want a Gen V because it speaks to you, buy that.

If you think the Gen V is garbage, call up one of the dodge dealers with brand new, never sold 2010 Vipers on their lot.

As Louie CK says, everything is amazing and no one is happy. We are living in an amazing time, enjoy it. In a decade we maybe relegated to soulless electric motors.

God forbid!

 

[bluestreak]

Good post! Although I stll think the Viper is right on the verge with a few small tweaks. I think SRT have done a great job with their limitations (Ferrari, Budget, Tires).

The car is plenty fast now, and will only get faster. This media lashing is going to hurt a little bit though.

I think all need to realize what is going on. No longer can you just slap a motor on a car and build a high performance machine. This isn't 1992 again when the original Viper debuted and trashed the competition.

We are In an amazing day and age of extreme performance - where the bar is set higher than ever before.

The new Viper, by all accounts, was done on a shoe string budget As a project of passion by engineers at SRT. It wasn't funded as a new Ferrari would be, as the marines say, do more with less.

I think in the next few years, you'll see SRT tweak the overall package. They had to start somewhere, and it is a great start - no matter what anyone says. It isn't eating mature ZR1's, but id guess by the 2015 model, it will be.

Sure, two seconds slower than the ZR1 right now, but it eats the lunch of so many more expensive super cars.

We are in an amazing age of vehicle performance, of which most of us will never be able to fully appreciate because we aren't that good of drivers.

If you want something to impress teenagers with due to magazine stats, go buy the car that does that.

If you want a Gen V because it speaks to you, buy that.

If you think the Gen V is garbage, call up one of the dodge dealers with brand new, never sold 2010 Vipers on their lot.

As Louie CK says, everything is amazing and no one is happy. We are living in an amazing time, enjoy it. In a decade we maybe relegated to soulless electric motors.

 

[SSGViper]

Good grief this is disappointing. Two reviews in a row with a 2 sec beatdown at the hands of the ZR1. Congrats SRT you are the best marketing department Chevy has ever had. A bit harsh but Im very disappointed in the new cars performance. I just dont see how anyone can defend SRT after these confirmed results.

Most of the Viper faithful will buy the new Viper thats a given. But how do you expect to get the conquest buyers with perpetual losses in the most important Viper performance department? I for one dont want to see the SRT tested against the newer GTR/Z06 or for that matter any top shelf supercar until its sorted. No way this is what Ralph and SRT intended. The car is just not ready for prime time. Regardless of the reasons and excuses this is not acceptable imho. Fiat or SRT give the car what it needs or you will be forced to discontinue it. If dominant ACR's sat on lots what do you think will happen to a "whipping boy" Viper? The new cars are getting faster. If the Viper cant beat or even hope to tie an older ZR1 on a circuit track then its dead in the water imho. The Viper has always been either the baddest car in the straight or turns or both or right there with the fastest.

The old non ACR Gen 3 was consistently about .5 on a track behind its direct competitor the Z06 according to mags. The Gen IV non ACR was about even to tenth or two faster than the Z06 on track. This new Viper is 2 secs behind its direct competitor. The car needs to put the numbers down in keeping with its past heritage and image for it to survive and be taken seriously. It sounds like its still much rawer than the Porsche crowd SRT is hoping to woo. Why would they leave the comfort of a Porsche, Aston etc to be mediocre performance-wise if they are non Viper type of person? Most of you are not worried about this but SRT is aiming this car towards that part of the industry. So did they fail in the comfort department too? Two strait reviews by mags that cater to more refined spectrum of the automotive industry has labeled the interior harsh and uncomfortable. MT also said the ZR1 is more comfortable than the Gen V. So what part of these reviews favors SRT new offering? A person reading these reviews who may have been considering a new Viper would have a hard time understanding SRT's approach and execution with this new Viper as its slower and less comfortable than its old rival.

I could not agree more. Very well stated. This Gen V is dead in the water before it even hits the dealer. Ralph and the higher ups are the ones accountable for this mess.

 

[mnc2886]

Weird thing is I noticed that when playing Forza. The ZR1 runs the new Viper down in Forza because of the gear ratios. I know it's just a game, but a lot of real world data (like gear ratios are aero) are fed into it.

Believe it or not the game has a lot of scientific data put into it to be a real world simulator. I ran Laguna in the Gen V, the Gen IV ACR, and the ZR1.

1. Gen IV ACR
2. Corvette ZR1
3. Gen V

I ran 5 laps in a row just like Pobst. My best time though was a 1:38, lol....

Anyways, let's get back to real world numbers.

I was always confused why the Viper was re-geared. Having the 3.07 read end made it more manageable from what I could tell and only a few were swapping their rear ends out. Not only that, the less aggressive gear let more power get down to the ground. I say put the 3.07 back.

 

[PDCjonny]

I think in the next few years, you'll see SRT tweak the overall package. They had to start somewhere.

Than first year owners can have the same queasy feeling the guys with the 4.2L R8's have.

 

[ViperSmith]

Than first year owners can have the same queasy feeling the guys with the 4.2L R8's have.

So? Every year there will be something new and more powerful. To fret over it is silly.

Do you get sad when you see a new Gallardo?

 

[Chelseasnake]

So? Every year there will be something new and more powerful. To fret over it is silly.

Do you get sad when you see a new Gallardo?

thats a good one.

 

[Dom426h]

Than first year owners can have the same queasy feeling the guys with the 4.2L R8's have.

The R8 is a great touring sportscar but has nothing to do with this convo IMO.
There are a lot of R8 owners that are perfectly content with what they purchased and could care less if something more powerfull pulled up to them at a stoplight trying to prove something.

The power hungry redneck wasn't exactly Audi's target clientele...



(not saying that it is ours either...)

 

[PDCjonny]

Do you get sad when you see a new Gallardo?

Not as sad as you're going to be when you see a four year old ZR1.

 

[BlackSnake99]

Not as sad as you're going to be when you see a four year old ZR1.

Oh snap!!!!

 

[ViperSmith]

Not as sad as you're going to be when you see a four year old ZR1.

Why would I be sad? I hope they are enjoying their vehicle, as I will be mine. I hope they are driving the hell out of it, as I plan to do with my car.

I guess I don't quite get your posturing, but whatever floats your boat.

 

[MtnBiker]

When you see a ZR1 pull up just ask the guy "Is that a Grand Sport"? Hahahahahaha.

 

[Paolo Castellano]

The new Viper pulls to 6400 RPM which is 147 MPH in 4th gear. The RPM drops to a bit above 4900 RPM and 150 is a hare over 5,000 RPM once the 4-5 shift takes place. So the 150 MPH is kind of an unfortunate mark with the new gearing and tire sizing. They either need to raise the rev limit to 6600 RPM which would be 151 MPH or use a 28" tall tire which would be 150 MPH @ 6400(rev limit to 6500 would be needed for this scenario).

The extra shift has to take at least .5 seconds, losing the momentum against the drag at that speed with the shift is not helping the Viper.

For reference, here are the Torque multiplication numbers and MPH for Gen 5 gears revving to 6400 RPM then the Gen 2 gears revving to 6200 RPM:

2.26 X 3.55 = 8.023 65 MPH
1.58 X 3.55 = 5.609 93 MPH
1.19 X 3.55 = 4.2245 123 MPH
1 X 3.55 = 3.55 147 MPH
.77 X 3.55 = 2.7335 191 MPH .
.63 x 3.55 = 2.2365 233 MPH


2.66 x 3.07 = 8.1662 59 MPH
1.78 x 3.07 = 5.4646 89 MPH
1.3 x 3.07 = 3.991 121MPH
1 X 3.07 3.07 158 MPH
74 x 3.07 = 2.27 213 MPH

With all this being said, whether the Viper has 640 or 700, the ZR-1 has forced inductionand can just turn up the boost! The Viper needs turbos!

With the new 3.55 gears the viper pulls 4th gear to 138 mph, then it shifts to 5th gear with a .77 ratio. IT FALLS ON ITS FACE.
That is why the 0-150 is slower than the Gen IVs. The older vipers can pull 4th to 160+.

The ZR1 has better 5 th gear ratio and less drop in RPMs from 4th to 5th. after 135 mph is coming on ******* the viper.

 

[v10enomous]

I'm no automotive engineer but I suspect that part of the problem is that the ZR1 has an advantage with the weight distribution over the axles especially in the rear by having 7" more wheelbase on the same length car. Picture a vertical line through the center of the rear wheels of both cars and look how much of the Viper's rear is behind the axle vs the vette. While the Viper is perfectly balanced at 50/50 I also suspect that the vette's rear transaxle keeps a lower COG in the rear as well.

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Vooodoo ACR]

The R8 is a great touring sportscar but has nothing to do with this convo IMO.
There are a lot of R8 owners that are perfectly content with what they purchased and could care less if something more powerfull pulled up to them at a stoplight trying to prove something.

The power hungry redneck wasn't exactly Audi's target clientele...



(not saying that it is ours either...)

As a current 5.2L R8 owner I agree. However, with the current twin turbo kits available for the R8... some people might want to be careful running up on an R8. Might get the surprise of their life when the light turns green.

 

[Bobpantax]

I respect your thoughts here but I think the resistance to using boost is at the route of the problem. My car has more than 22,000 miles on it. It has been and continues to be bullet proof. It has been used for a few road course track days, standing mile events and daily driving. Are you saying that a manufacturer cannot produce this type of vehicle but I can? The flaw was thinking that 640 HP was enough. Many of us knew that 700 HP was needed based on our own personal experience. But, I still believe in SRT and its gear heads and as I said, I think they will step up to the challenge. A good crisis should not be wasted. Perhaps the two tests will wake up the dragon. The SRT engineers are the best in the business. I know that if they are allowed the budget to do so, they can fix the problem.

(

Yes you are wrong.(currently)

Back-in-the-day you were right.
Back then it was simple to make a Gen1 Viper with a 400hp V10 that bested the 300hp C4 Vette.
Back then it was simple to make a Gen2 Viper with a 450hp V10 that bested the 350hp C5 Vette.

Now we are nearing the limit of power for several reasons including(but not limited to) the ability to put the power down, government restrictions, & common sense.
Think about it... We are now talking about taking the power level of a C5 vette(which was a pretty awesome car in its day) and doubling it. ....i'll repeat: DOUBLING IT

We now live in the era where a lot of sports cars are reaching ten 10ths. The gap is so tight its tough to crown any one since all the other variables such as track condisions and drivers can be the difference between 1st,2nd,3rd,ect...
The Kings are the owners hitting the drag strip and setting records
The kings are the owners at the trackdays tearing up the road course

 

[Dom426h]

Not as sad as you're going to be when you see a four year old ZR1.

Why is it that the ACR's 1.33X stood untill now?

Is the latest ZR1 faster than the previous ones that failed at running around the track as fast as the ACR?



The ZR1's time of 7:19.63 at the RING is still under the 911-GT2, the LF-A, and the Viper's record of 7:12:13....

 

[SnakeBitten]

I'm no automotive engineer but I suspect that part of the problem is that the ZR1 has an advantage with the weight distribution over the axles especially in the rear by having 7" more wheelbase on the same length car. Picture a vertical line through the center of the rear wheels of both cars and look how much of the Viper's rear is behind the axle vs the vette. While the Viper is perfectly balanced at 50/50 I also suspect that the vette's rear transaxle keeps a lower COG in the rear as well.

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

The ZR1 is a very very good machine but Imho the Gen V GTS setup just needs a better brake and tire package. As was stated on the other thread by very knowledgeable track rats its likely the tire and brake issue. Two seconds is well with in the range for mpsc to make up if SRT were to shod the Viper with a similar tire. Both issues hurt the Viper in the tests. In all likelihood SRT just has to address those two issues and this discussion would be vastly different. I think at this point we would be glad to just be tied with the 4 year old ZR1 than be 2 seconds down because of apparently easily fixable issues. Which says a lot.

 

[Vital Velocity]

The issue when looking at the straight line race is not just to 150. If you look at the numbers, everything after the launch the vette is accelerating faster than the viper. So while from a stand still it takes the vette about a 1/4 mile to catch the viper, any roll race it would appear that the vette is going to pull ( shown by the gap being closed after the launch, the mph difference in the 1/4, and the speed to 150). If you are going to race a zr1 do so from a stop (and even with that, if the driver of the vette is a better driver than you, well probably lose there as well).

The really sad thing about this is again, we are talking about the NEW viper against what is soon to be the old vette.

Of course people buy cars for different reasons so while we can hang our hat on the fact that we aren't "just another vette", currently they get to hang their hats on handing us our asses

How many guys here drive to 150mph on the streets. I hope none. Going to work today (a 15 minute drive ) I saw at least 5 Corvettes. Couldn't even tell which models they were they look similar. The Gen V is the fastest Viper ever made and with a lot more refinement than previous gens. (it's about darn time). I cant believe so many EXISTING Viper owners are speaking negatively about the new car. Has there ever been a magazine that liked the Viper. Hardly any. I will hold my opinions until I drive the new Viper. From what both mags claim it is still very much true to its roots. It is just as fast up until the 1/4 mile as the zr1. Don't know any drag strips that do 1/2 mile or 0-150 mph runs. I think the exclusiveness alone is worth the entry price for the Viper.

 

[v10enomous]

Looking at the 2 cars, there is no question that I would rather own and drive the Viper but I had no expectation that it would beat the ZR1 without some sort of aero and I thought most folks while hopeful were of the same opinion.

The ZR1 is a very very good machine but Imho the Gen V GTS setup just needs a better brake and tire package. As was stated on the other thread by very knowledgeable track rats its likely the tire and brake issue. Two seconds is well with in the range for mpsc to make up if SRT were to shod the Viper with a similar tire. Both issues hurt the Viper in the tests. In all likelihood SRT just has to address those two issues and this discussion would be vastly different. I think at this point we would be glad to just be tied with the 4 year old ZR1 than be 2 seconds down because of apparently easily fixable issues. Which says a lot.