Darth Menace
Enthusiast
hi, i saw an archived thread a while back what showed dyno comparisons to the different headers on the Gen II. I would like to read it again but cant find it. Does anyone know what I am talking about and where it would be
different brand of headers and HP/TQ gains
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Darth Menace
Enthusiast
ive heard good news about M&M. There are a few other brands for sale around viper sites (american racing, bellanger, etc) so I was just wanting to look at the specs (and i hear there are some that are nightmares to install)
sassafras
Viper Owner
I've got a set of M&M's I'm selling.
dave6666
Enthusiast
Belangers are super easy to install, average hp gains, great sound.
We have Gen 1's in stock here at M&M.
CEJ
Enthusiast
The North & South Carolina region had a dyno day last weekend, and if you check the last photo on post #35, that shows the hp/torque of the cars that ran that day. For instance, NextPhase has a 2001 GTS with M&M headers, random tech exhaust and high flow cats. He dyno'ed at (435/471 hp/torque) and a completely stock 2001 RT/10 did 413/445. So you pick up some gains, but maybe not as much as you might expect.
http://forums.viperclub.org/threads...Day-February-09-2013-Mayhem-Motorsports/page2
http://forums.viperclub.org/threads...Day-February-09-2013-Mayhem-Motorsports/page2
dave6666
Enthusiast
+1 on the exhaust mods being light on numbers. When I went from a Corsa catback with rear delete, to Belangers h/f cats and 3" side exhaust with Magnaflow mufflers (plus an SCT email tune), I gained about 10 hp. That was 2 completely different dynos, so realistically it could have been 20 hp, or zero. The sound gains though are impressive lol.
I think the percentage of gain starts to expand some as the mods accumulate. In other words, headers on top of a full compliment of Greg Good heads and cam... they keep complimenting each other.
I think the percentage of gain starts to expand some as the mods accumulate. In other words, headers on top of a full compliment of Greg Good heads and cam... they keep complimenting each other.
Darth Menace
Enthusiast
hmmmm, might not be worth it for such minimal gains. Maybe i should start getting parts that will complement a TT one day instead of buying parts that will have to come off (one day) when TT comes..
The power you pick up is all the way across the curve. There is a lot more than just peak numbers. Also one Viper will very 30hp from another. Only way to tell is to swap the headers out on the dyno on the same day.
Goatman
Viper Owner
When I was looking for headers for m Gen 1 I decided on Belangers because I got a really great deal. I have seen M&M on other cars and I dont see any difference on quality. I did however go from 389rwhp to 412rwhp. They sounded amazing.
Darth Menace
Enthusiast
thats why i was asking about that header write-up. I read it a while ago, and it wasn't a thread like this, but more of a write up about different headers for the viper and the (claimed) dyno numbers. I know it was here or the alley, but i can't find it anymore. I dont think the info was done on a gen 1, but a gen 2.
How much? Gen 1 or 2?
Darth Menace
Enthusiast
I have been looking at them and they are Gen 2 for $1000 (if we are talking about the same ones)
sassafras
Viper Owner
Correct Gen 2's. $950 shipped within the US. Don't know about shipping to Canada but I would work with you.
M & M's will be the next mod for mine. Waiting for some one going TT's to sell cheap
Got any pics? Why are you selling?
sassafras
Viper Owner
Sent you a PM.
Your big gains were on the 94-98 cars, they had the restrictive/cast headers. You also had a significant weight reduction in the aforementioned cast iron header cars. The gains were less after 98, because those were tubular and flowed better. Perhaps more important is the extension of peak torque and a gain in power under the curve from peak torque all the way to peak hp.
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Viper Grenade
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The reality is that the intake mani on these cars ***** so bad it almost doesn't matter what you do to the exhaust. If we could get a good intake mani I bet you would see 20-30rwhp. The issue though is hood clearance, simply not enough room under it for a good intake mani. You would need a custom hood or a dry sump and lower the engine down or better yet a combo of both. But that wouldn't be economically smart as at that point a bolt-on SC would cost the same or less. So, we are basically stuck making ****ty power N/A(unless you want to spend big $$$$) or going boosted.
dave6666
Enthusiast
50hp on an exhaust upgrade does sound a little spicy, but it may be so.
One thing that always gets my attention on these hp comparison tests - the before and after mods - is the lack of true statistical validity to them. Even if there was a dyno involved, I, as a person who deals with matters of science and statistics every day, can often look at the information provided (or usually lack thereof...), and quickly come to the conclusion that the claims being made are just as much the butt dyno as they are real hp improvements.
About the only way one of these tests could be the gospel is, to dyno the car, then shut it down and swap the parts - those parts ONLY - and redyno the car on that exact same dyno. Typically no one does that, and has a collection of mods, not just one. Without the knowledge and practice of environment control, and in the case of multiple mods at once, some design of experiment skills, many of these claims are of limited value. Not always, but quite often.
Just simply going from one dyno to the next can be significant. My first dyno pull on my '01 (can't remember the dyno brand) I had tubes filters and Corsa catback with rear delete. 436 was the peak number. Add in an SCT email tune, Belanger headers, R/T hf cats, 3" side exhaust with Magnaflow mofflers, and on a Dynocom I was at 446. 10 more hp. Wow.
So was it the headers? The cats? The SCT tune? The 3" pipe? The mufflers? I don't know, and neither do you.
But according to Dynocom, and I was at the manufacturing plant on their in house test dyno, the engineers there said the brand of dyno I used on the first pull stops being accurate at all past 400. So was the 10 hp gain the dyno and not the parts? Or was it actually 20 hp or 30 hp? Or even zero gain?
In summary, typically car dudes are not the best at scientific validation to their work. Meaning you are kind of on your own, using your gut feel many times. I do believe however as it was said, that because of the older style header on the Gen 1, it ups the value of the buck; $ vs rwhp gain.
Jack B>the '98 had factory tube headers (first year) not cast. So, while I do believe that adding peformance headers adds some power, I am not sure how much over the factory tubes and whether it is worth it for power alone...sound not withstanding.
Of course, I could be wrong, just my opinion.
Of course, I could be wrong, just my opinion.
Viper Parts of America
Enthusiast
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As noted above, the more recent Gen 2's (starting in 2000) were often referred to as "cream puffs" as they no longer had forged pistons and had a different camshaft. It was the latter that affected how beneficial the headers would be, as the .708 cams generally saw a greater gain with headers than the later builds. You will find some folks actually have installed that previous cam in not only their 2000 - 2002 cars, but even the Gen 3. There should be some threads on this subject (cream puffs & headers) from around 2000/2001 on the site.
Through my modification journey I've realized that in and of themselves the headers will not make a lot of power. So if you're looking for one brand of header to stand out with a clear and decisive power advantage over another brand you will not find it. Some simply make peak HP/TQ at redline, others spread the power gains across the RPM spectrum, others make gains at lower rpm, etc. No single header (other than the old SVS header) stands out in mega power performance. You're not going to get supercharger numbers from a header upgrade. Sorry. 50 hp sounds about right but who can really prove this?
My first exhaust upgrade was a Borla 1 5/8" stepped header, Billy Boat HF Cats and Billy Boat Catback. Here's the dyno sheet for that combination (no tune was done, stock controller):
What made the Viper put down 448HP and 479TQ? Was is the headers? The cats? The catback? Certainly wasn't the tune 'cause I didn't have one. I'll never know. I never took a baseline dyno from the stock system either. I believe that the stepped header design move peak torque to the lower RPM range.
Then I ditched that setup because it sounded like someone was farting through a straw. Sorry for the mental picture but I'm at a loss for words to describe just how terrible the exhaust note was from the above setup.
I changed over to a Belanger Header, RT HF cats and Belanger catback. Went to the dyno for SCT tuning. After 22 pulls and tuning changes, this is what the Viper put down:
The engine was heat soaked at this point but consistently put down the same numbers with the final tune. Different dyno, different temps, different conditions compared to the prior dyno sheet. Similar performance. No scientific analysis here either....was it the headers? The cats? The catback? The tune? Or all of the above? We'll never know.
What I do know is that I love the sound from the Belanger system and the quality and support is top notch. I wouldn't hesitate to buy M&M headers. Better price, similar high quality and thicker flanges.
The only scientific analysis I can offer is that the addition of my greg good heads/cam picked up an additional 122rwhp and torque. And even this analysis is flawed because a different dyno was used and I haven't been able to complete a tune yet. (CT desperately needs tuners). Pucker vortex has a whole new meaning to me now. I now realize that up until my heads/cam mods all of the other mods was foreplay.
If you're getting a header upgrade to add power thinking you'll break 10's in the 1/4 mile then you will be very disappointed. My advice is to forget which headers gives the best power because the differences are insignificant. Instead, find a header that sounds right to you and don't forget about the rest of the exhaust system. Find a high quality header with excellent support. Think about how the choice of header fits into your long-term upgrade plan, if any.
My first exhaust upgrade was a Borla 1 5/8" stepped header, Billy Boat HF Cats and Billy Boat Catback. Here's the dyno sheet for that combination (no tune was done, stock controller):
What made the Viper put down 448HP and 479TQ? Was is the headers? The cats? The catback? Certainly wasn't the tune 'cause I didn't have one. I'll never know. I never took a baseline dyno from the stock system either. I believe that the stepped header design move peak torque to the lower RPM range.
Then I ditched that setup because it sounded like someone was farting through a straw. Sorry for the mental picture but I'm at a loss for words to describe just how terrible the exhaust note was from the above setup.
I changed over to a Belanger Header, RT HF cats and Belanger catback. Went to the dyno for SCT tuning. After 22 pulls and tuning changes, this is what the Viper put down:
The engine was heat soaked at this point but consistently put down the same numbers with the final tune. Different dyno, different temps, different conditions compared to the prior dyno sheet. Similar performance. No scientific analysis here either....was it the headers? The cats? The catback? The tune? Or all of the above? We'll never know.
What I do know is that I love the sound from the Belanger system and the quality and support is top notch. I wouldn't hesitate to buy M&M headers. Better price, similar high quality and thicker flanges.
The only scientific analysis I can offer is that the addition of my greg good heads/cam picked up an additional 122rwhp and torque. And even this analysis is flawed because a different dyno was used and I haven't been able to complete a tune yet. (CT desperately needs tuners). Pucker vortex has a whole new meaning to me now.
I now realize that up until my heads/cam mods all of the other mods was foreplay. If you're getting a header upgrade to add power thinking you'll break 10's in the 1/4 mile then you will be very disappointed. My advice is to forget which headers gives the best power because the differences are insignificant. Instead, find a header that sounds right to you and don't forget about the rest of the exhaust system. Find a high quality header with excellent support. Think about how the choice of header fits into your long-term upgrade plan, if any.
rpm9000
Enthusiast
On my Gen.1 I dynoed 385 rwhp. I added Belanger headers, 3" Roe cats and 1.7 rockers and dynoed 418 rwhp.
My 97 had cast and I believe some of the early 98's had cast, maybe someone else can add to the mix.
As far as gains, I had the Balengers on my 94 and it went to 410. I moved them over to my 97 (they fit both Generations) and with the headers and t&D's (15 hp from the T&D) it did a high of 457. These were not one time pulls, those numbers were substaniated multiple times.
As far as gains, I had the Balengers on my 94 and it went to 410. I moved them over to my 97 (they fit both Generations) and with the headers and t&D's (15 hp from the T&D) it did a high of 457. These were not one time pulls, those numbers were substaniated multiple times.
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Darth Menace
Enthusiast
crap...ihave a 98. how do i know which i have. all i see are heat shields
