FASTER THAN A VIPER

[onerareviper]

No one mentioned the Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG for around $80,000. Here's my list under $100,000 in 1/4.

1.) Viper

All the rest are too close to call in the 1/4

* 911 GT3 (no options) (After taxes, over $100,000)
* Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG
* Z06

 

[onerareviper]

LIRacer (Bruce),

May I suggest putting 3.73 or 4.10 gears in your Viper.... Trust me, when you do, it will feel faster than all those muscle cars and be fun-as-hell on the street. The stock 3.07 gears makes the car feel a little sluggish out-of-the-hole (0-20 MPH). You have to punch it from a 30 MPH roll (in first gear) to really get your heart jump'in.

If you used to stump pulling muscle cars, I suggest the 3.73 gear. Many like the 3.55's, but in your case I would do the 3.73's. If you really want to get crazy, 4.10's.

*If you do this, Dodge sells a complete differential assemble. If you price shop, the 3.73 new differential can be had for under $1,200. I've seen them as low as $1,080. It is very easy to swap out entire diff. You can keep you OEM diff., or sell. I would not buy the ring and pinion, cause by the time your done it will cost close to $1,000. And you will not have an extra diff.

 

[ViperRay]

I have a small muscle car collection including a 427 tripower '67 Corvette coupe, 454 Chevelle, big block Challenger and others. They no way compare to the Viper in any performance category in my personal, first hand experience.

 

[STUGOTS]

I agree and those are some pretty impressive cars that Ray has at that.

 

[LIRacer]

I've been reading a compilation of car and Driver plus Road and track articles about the Viper. I can not find any Gen 2 going faster then 12.8. THis is certainly fast, but not faster then a 427 67 Vette.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

I've been reading a compilation of car and Driver plus Road and track articles about the Viper. I can not find any Gen 2 going faster then 12.8. THis is certainly fast, but not faster then a 427 67 Vette.

you're not looking hard enough. Motortrend repeatedly got 12.2's and a mopar rag even got an 11.77

 

[ViperRay]

Motor Trend April 1967: '67 427/435 Corvette
quarter mile: 13.8 @ 104

Hot Rod May 1967: '67 427/435 Corvette
quarter mile: 13.8 @ 108

Believe me, I like my '67 Vette, but I'm not going to delude myself. It was great in its day.

 

[Guibo]

I've been reading a compilation of car and Driver plus Road and track articles about the Viper. I can not find any Gen 2 going faster then 12.8.

you're not looking hard enough. Motortrend repeatedly got 12.2's and a mopar rag even got an 11.77

Quite right. Here's C&D getting 12.2 in a GTS:
http://speed.supercars.net/cboardpics/2004-4-14/531964a.jpg

They got the same in their RT/10 as well. Even R&T's high-altitude, high-temp uncorrected test for the ACR showed 12.6. MT's corrected time (from their '00 High Speed Shootout) was a 12.17 as I recall.

As someone may have already posted, here's an 11.97:
http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/collector_cars/1997/8/showdown_muscle_cars/print.phtml

 

[LIRacer]

Well you guys certainly showed me ... that PM article was great. I never really thought the old muscle cars we faster .. well maybe..LOL.

 

[joe117]

LiRacer is living in a dream world. He thinks that all the old data is bunk and the old cars were really faster than today's.

People who own these cars today are part of the plot. They report much lower performance than their cars are really capable of.

For proof of his silly claims he refers us to a website run by some guy who repeats the same old 60s myths. This time the myths are about a tuner produced race car. Yeah, that's proof, right.

He keeps saying that some of the 60s cars still rule today.
OK Beavus, name the 60s cars that rule.... This is the third time I've asked you.

I point out that none of these 60s cars had any overdrive gears. When the 427 cobra has a 3.54 rear end and a 1:1 top gear, he doesn't seem to know what that means as far as performance compared to todays cars.

He says he can't find any reports of GTS going faster than 12.8 or so.
This is more proof of his inability to conduct research.

Sonny, you are living in a dream world. I remember those days and those cars. Some of them were very fast. But todays fast cars are even faster.

 

[FrankTHutchens]

On the other hand, 60's Hemi cars running today in the factory stock/looks factory stock (whatever it is..) class with strokers, ported heads, cams and other go fast stuff that doesn't violate the 'must look stock' rule, can do low 11s/high 10s on Polyglass repro tires.

 

[LIRacer]

Joe my poor friend you take things too seriouly. I suggest you get a life. If you took tthe time to reduce your rage somewhat and read (you do read don't you, or do you just pontificate?) you would see that I aquiesed. Guibo linked me a great article about old vs new Muscle cars. I do still believe that a Baldwin Motion car will do mid elevens. And Butthead, I named the Motion Car that would (You can count to three!!!!). Also, if you read the R&T compilation articles none of them show a Viper doing better then mid 12s, however as I mentioned Guibo's post proves me wrong and I accept that .. besides, I own a Viper and think it a very groovy car. When your done reading this don't forget to take your Xanex and dream of you conquests as they fade to black............

 

[Midgetfist]

On the other hand, 60's Hemi cars running today in the factory stock/looks factory stock (whatever it is..) class with strokers, ported heads, cams and other go fast stuff that doesn't violate the 'must look stock' rule, can do low 11s/high 10s on Polyglass repro tires.

That would be the "F.A.S.T." Class - Factory Appearance/Stock Tires. Remarkably, they really haul @SS on those skinny stock tires.

 

[LIRacer]

Look at the modern / old muscle car debate this way. When we were kids in the 60s and 70s, these muscle cars were available to us. I was able to buy my first car, a used 1970 442 speed W30 for $1,600. How many 17 year olds can afford even an older Viper today? Most of the people on this site are (seem) well off and can afford a Viper (or two or three). A new 67 427 Vette cost $3,500 loaded. In 1970 dollars, a Viper would have cost around $10,000 - $12,000. Can you imagine what that amount of money would have bought and how fast a car would be if Chevy had a Vette or Chevelle costing that? Certainly the modern muscle cars (especially the Viper) are fatser then the old cars, but it isn't really an apples to apples comparison as the Viper is 4 times the cost in 1970 dollars as a muscle car of that day. With all the price and technology advantage, the Viper is only a second or less quicker in the 1/4 ... and while 1 second is forever in a drag race, you would hope that the delta (that means difference, Joe) would be much greater given the Vipers advantages. Really, the Viper is a steal compared to modern supercars that cost twice or three times as much and can't or barely out run it, but compare it to a 1970 LS-6 bone stock Chevelle, it really is no big deal.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

LOL @ drawing a comparison between an oldsmobile and the Viper.

FYI the Viper's intent was to not be the one dimensional cars that muscle cars are. Drag racing is about as fascinating as NASCAR, meaning that the cars in each have one purpose, to do one thing well and that's it.

Aside from the Cobra which production car from the 60's or 70's could you take to sebring, run laps all morning then go to the dragstrip and be one of the fastest cars without changing a thing? How many muscle cars will stop from 60 in under 150 feet? 200 feet?

Muscle cares are great to look at, sound awesome have a great history and are fine for cruising down the road as long as they don't overheat and the odd trip down the track but would you take one out for a 4-5 hour cruise? Can you jump in one and knock off 600 miles in a day? Does the A/C work? Does it have a stereo? Will it break down? Probably.

They belong on trailers.

 

[YouWish]

LIRacer:What is your problem? You are borderline Viper bashing/disrespecting it. You must be an old fart wishing you were young again. Get over it we all get old!!!

 

[LIRacer]

Craig,

I make this comparison simply because that is where this thread has deteriorated to. The muscle car of the 60s went in a straight line very fast and hopefully there was enough space to stop. Turning was an after thought. But then in those days no caed much for road racing. It wasn't American.

My 442 is an original car and after 34 years I finally rebuilt the mototr over the winter. It is a pleasure to drve daily (in nice weather of course)and most of the baseball cap worn backwards wienies who try to out run it only see it's tail lights. So much for rice! It drives better then my Vette ... but the Vette out handles and out brakes it.

As far as what 60s car I would take to Sebring ... other then a Cobra? Z/28, Boss 302, AMX, ... GT-40.

 

[LIRacer]

YOUWISH...

Bashing a Viper?? Not really. I own one and I love it. I simply don't need a Viper for security though. How do you fit your Viper under you blanky anyway? LOL.

 

[joe117]

I keep asking you,
What is the top speed on a 60s car with a 4.11 rear and a 4 speed with a 1:1 top gear?

Hint.... It's about 125mph.

Well?

 

[LIRacer]

Top speed??? Who cares in the quarter mile. Does you Viper hit 6th in a drag race? If it does I would suggest that you hold your gears a bit longer then 3000 rpm. The idea is to go fast Joe.

And a car with 4.11 gears would not do even 125mph .... but it would get there very fast .... which Joe, is the point of Drag racing ...it is an acceleration event...acceleration is the constant increasing of speed, Joe. I am sorry I am using big words.

 

[GTSFE304]

Re: FASTER THAN A VIPER-Two snakes are better than one

I am a proud 3 time Viper owner, but also own a 2003 Cobra Vert that Steeda Serialized for me. The truth is that for 43k total which includes 5k of bolt on engine and chassis mods- the Cobra is one bad snake(for well under 50k). Quite honestly in terms of throttle response and RWTQ/RWHP(499/477) there is no contest-Cobra wins. But before all you guys go crazy lighting up the board let me say that I am proud to report my newest purchase about 10 days ago- Final Edition #304 with only 420 miles on it so I get to finish the break-in. Now we all know that Viper handling is tops, and if you spend the big bucks with DLM or some other tuner- the Viper can be a monster. Nevertheless, I must tip my hat to FMC on the Cobra's modular 4.6 with its forged internals, Manley rods and cross drilled 6 bolt mains. It is the real deal. The moral of the story for me is that two fast snakes are better than one. If i had to keep only one, yes it is the Viper.

 

[joe117]

I don't think 1/4 mile is the only way to decide if a 60s car is faster than a modern car.

I know we have been talking mostly 1/4 mile times. I believe that's because it's the only data we have.

However, when 60s cars posting the 1/4 mile times that we are talking about, have a top speed 40-50mph less than the modern car,
I think it becomes a valid point in the argument.

It's not simply a matter of top speed.
The 60's car with a 4:11 or a 4.56 rear was almost undrivable as a street car.
70 mph on the highway comes at somewhere around 4500 rpm.
How much of that can you take?

The point is, to get those 13 second times, the car had to have a rear that most guys couldn't live with, and so many of those 60s cars didn't/couldn't have the rear needed for even the performance quoted in the lists we have been looking at.

So I say it all goes into what made the cars what they were then compared to what we have now.
Todays cars are MUCH faster than the hot cars of the 60s.

You lose.

 

[LIRacer]

Joe:

Sure if there were 6 speeds back then you wouldn't need those undrivable rear ends. You ask the question about top speed and that is different then trap speed. And I do not agree that todays have a 40-50 mph higher TRAP speed. Yes the only way to compare is in the 1/4 mile. However I would put a GT40 against a Viper on a road race course.As I said before your pontifications earlier, I agreee that the Viper is faster, but I believe that it isn't much faster in the 1/4 mile given it's tech advantage and higher price.

 

[thebigsnake]

Two things: 1-No Joe bashing.
2-When I'm in my Viper, I'm Ron Jeremy darn it!

 

[STUGOTS]

now of days the real "street races" are the 10 second rule which is whoever stays ahead of the other person for 10 full seconds wins and no ol dmustle car would win that challange.

 

[joe117]

LiRacer,
If those cars had 6 speeds they would still need the 4.11 or 4.56 rear.
The six speed's two overdrive gears would make the high ratio rear a thing you could live with.
Too bad they didn't have it.

OK, so here's where we are,

1. If the old cars had modern tires they would have been faster.

2. If the old cars had a modern transmission they would have been faster.

I agree, if they had those things back then they would have been faster than they were back then.

I keep telling you that they didn't have those things and that's why they weren't as fast as the myth would have you believe.

You lose again.

 

[ViperJoe]

All of the "old" cars were rated "GROSS" HP (a higher rating that the "NET" that is used today)

 

[WCKDVPR]

It is funny how people use drag race times to compare a cars peformance when one (Viper) is purely designed for road racing and the others are built mainly for drag racing (except the Vette and 427 Cobra).

The Viper purely runs fast 1/4 mile times because of its HP/Weight ratio. Its entire design ***** for drag racing. You've got people here with 1000 RWHP that can't get into the 9's on Drag radials. IT IS NOT A DRAG CAR!

Try comparing road course lap times of the Viper versus anything from the 60's or 70's (race cars included) and you will find it is a pretty impressive car. You can also turn on the A/C, put in a CD, have airbags, and pass emissions with a Viper. No cupholder though

 

[YouWish]

Two things: 1-No Joe bashing.
2-When I'm in my Viper, I'm Ron Jeremy darn it!

Ron Jeremy??? Gross man. He is ugly and fat and you feel like hime when you get in your Viper? Man I would get rid of that Viper fast!!!

 

[ViperRay]

One thing I'll say about the 2nd gen vette ('63-'67) is that they were ahead of their time in some respects in that they had independent rear suspension and 4 wheel disc brakes...pretty amazing really. It still has tons of body roll.