Friend got his new Vette today

[Kenneth Krieger]

I have a good friend who I thought was going to buy a Viper. He had a 2001 C5 vert, and he traded it for an 08 Corvette Coupe. Nice color, but I was blown away by the poor paint job and the fit and finish inside! He had a center "stripe" put on the car by a local graphics design shop, and we went to pick it up today. The weather was so nice (72 degrees), I decided to take him over in my 05 Comm. Ed. Vert (S/C'd, Belangers, etc. etc.). While we were there, one of the office employees came out to the front where I was parked, and my friend was standing with me. The employee saw my car and said, "NOW THAT'S CLASS! Why didn't you buy one of these, this really stands out above and beyond all sports cars!" He was so taken back, he didn't know what to say at first, then he piped in, well I was going to buy a Viper, but I wanted and Automatic for a daily driver. She then said, "well you blew it!"
I felt a little bad for him......well, just a little. He had his chance, but..........

 

[DEKE01]

I have a good friend who I thought was going to buy a Viper. He had a 2001 C5 vert, and he traded it for an 08 Corvette Coupe. Nice color, but I was blown away by the poor paint job and the fit and finish inside! He had a center "stripe" put on the car by a local graphics design shop, and we went to pick it up today. The weather was so nice (72 degrees), I decided to take him over in my 05 Comm. Ed. Vert (S/C'd, Belangers, etc. etc.). While we were there, one of the office employees came out to the front where I was parked, and my friend was standing with me. The employee saw my car and said, "NOW THAT'S CLASS! Why didn't you buy one of these, this really stands out above and beyond all sports cars!" He was so taken back, he didn't know what to say at first, then he piped in, well I was going to buy a Viper, but I wanted and Automatic for a daily driver. She then said, "well you blew it!"
I felt a little bad for him......well, just a little. He had his chance, but..........

I'm no big fan of Vettes but I like them enough to be outraged. They are supposed to be sports cars. An AUTOMATIC!?! In a sports car?!? That's an abomination. I would think it is against the law at least in Michigan if not everywhere else.

 

[Jeff Lemke]

I agree. How could anyone drive a automatic sports car?

 

[ViperVenom523]

jeez an automatic? thats brutal, did he atleast get the paddle shift

 

[black mamba1]

There is no such thing as a bull w/ ****,
there is no such thing as professional sports w/out enhancers (steroids, hgh, etc),
there is no such thing as FREE,
there is no such thing as the Bills winning the Superbowl,
there is no such thing as "less filling",
there is no such things as "well, it just happened.."
there is no such thing as "Best Picture"
there is no such thing as a 50 yr old blond w/ breasts that dont sag..
there is no such thing as a 50 yr old man that can go an hour w/out ******...
there is no such thing as underprivileged (we all have choices and challenges)...

And there is no such thing as an automatic sports car. Like most of America, the Vette is a melting *** of image, affordability, and target market.

Totally unlike everything the Viper stands for and continues to be. Uncompromising and unapologizing. Pure. Honest. American. The last of a true breed of American car...the last of a true breed of driver.

 

[Snakester]

This has more to do with the market, average age, and preferences of buyers than some deficiency of the Corvette.
In 2007 over 76% of convertible Corvette buyers bought their car equipped with an automatic transmission, and 66% of the Coupe buyers bought their cars with an auto.
Only the Z06 model is unavailable with an automatic transmission.
But I'll bet that the ZR-1 will have that option.

Cars like the AMG Mercedes and Jaguar brands do not even offer a manual transmission as an option on their top cars.
And even in Porsche's higher end models the automatic transmission outsells manuals in the U.S. (and it's quicker as well)

I understand that many of us prefer shifting for ourselves, but we are in the minority in cars that cost over $50K.

Of course Vipers stand out, both visually and in being a focused, purpose-built design.
But like other focused cars like the Lotus Elise/Exige, and Porsche GT3, they appeal to a far smaller market than cars like the Corvette and BMW M3.

 

[Hamrhead]

The weather was so nice (72 degrees)

I hate both of you just because of this.



j/k

 

[black mamba1]

This has more to do with the market, average age, and preferences of buyers than some deficiency of the Corvette.
In 2007 over 76% of convertible Corvette buyers bought their car equipped with an automatic transmission, and 66% of the Coupe buyers bought their cars with an auto.
Only the Z06 model is unavailable with an automatic transmission.
But I'll bet that the ZR-1 will have that option.

Cars like the AMG Mercedes and Jaguar brands do not even offer a manual transmission as an option on their top cars.
And even in Porsche's higher end models the automatic transmission outsells manuals in the U.S. (and it's quicker as well)

I understand that many of us prefer shifting for ourselves, but we are in the minority in cars that cost over $50K.

Of course Vipers stand out, both visually and in being a focused, purpose-built design.
But like other focused cars like the Lotus Elise/Exige, and Porsche GT3, they appeal to a far smaller market than cars like the Corvette and BMW M3.

hmmm...i cannot remember seeing any automatics on the Nascar scene lately....

 

[DEKE01]

This has more to do with the market, average age, and preferences of buyers than some deficiency of the Corvette.
In 2007 over 76% of convertible Corvette buyers bought their car equipped with an automatic transmission, and 66% of the Coupe buyers bought their cars with an auto.
Only the Z06 model is unavailable with an automatic transmission.
But I'll bet that the ZR-1 will have that option.

Cars like the AMG Mercedes and Jaguar brands do not even offer a manual transmission as an option on their top cars.
And even in Porsche's higher end models the automatic transmission outsells manuals in the U.S. (and it's quicker as well)

I understand that many of us prefer shifting for ourselves, but we are in the minority in cars that cost over $50K.

Of course Vipers stand out, both visually and in being a focused, purpose-built design.
But like other focused cars like the Lotus Elise/Exige, and Porsche GT3, they appeal to a far smaller market than cars like the Corvette and BMW M3.

Prior to my Viper Roadster purchase, to fill my desires for a convertible, I seriously considered the sporty, yet non sports car, SL55. But I wouldn't buy a car that is supposed to be fun to drive toy if I couldn't get a real manual shifter.

So I understand what you're saying. I know what you're saying is true. But I also know that what BlackMamba said is true.

For all I care, Vette owners can buy their cars any way they want them, but IMO, an auto-Vette is no longer a sports car.

I don't pay enough attention to know if it is still true, but one of the things that bugged me about Chrysler / Dodge over the last years was that you couldn't (can't?) get any car other than the Viper of course, without an auto. They are going for a sports oriented market with several hot looking, muscular cars, but no manual transmissions were (are?) available. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Alexarz]

I heard that the Challenger is only going to be available with an automatic. Isn't that a shame?

 

[RichieSRT10]

Thanks for the laugh Ken. Being the owner of S/C Comm Edition w/Belangers I have had similar incidents ( I told you so) when hanging out with the Vette crew.

 

[mjf6175]

I think Snakester brings up a VERY interesting point. Take what he says and add in the concerns we have about the continuation of the Viper. There is surely some uncertainty about the future with Cerebus running the show. As all here know, the purpose of an equity company is to increase the botom line-Return on Investments-so that at some future date the company can be flipped. This could very well mean for the Viper to continue the Viper team has to justify its business case to Cerebus as well as reach a HIGHER (or some pre-determined target) ROI than it is now currently meeting. In other words increase sales. With other sports cars selling significant numbers of cars with automatics (and with all the other electronic add-ons)it becomes difficult to ignore what is going on around you. A member here has posted in another thread that the next platform (ZC?) is in the works and moving ahead. I don't doubt that for a minute. But what I do think is coming with that new platform is the option to have an automatic and those electronic add-ons. Now before I have to put on fire-proof undies let me say this-I don't care for automatics and those add-ons. BUT when left with the question of whether I want to see the Viper continue my answer is of course like everyone else's here, we just may need to realize that for the Viper to continue changes will be made that are not entirely to our liking. While many here may find it objectionable, the alterntive could be worse-NO VIPER-if sales are not increased and a higher ROI attained. I hate to use the Vette as an example but just look at what the automatic version allows-the ZO6. The broad selling base of the Vettes with automatics allows GM to make and sell the higher performance ZO6 and now the ZR1. If they didn't sell all those automatics there is a good possibility there would be no ZO6 or ZR1. The future for the Viper may be along these lines. Yes I know this is not the best answer, you end up in the same situation the Vette is in. When you see one does anyone know if it is the $100k ZR1 or just a granny auto? When you see a Viper there is no question. I don't have the answer, not saying I do. Neither am I advocating the changes. What I am trying to highlight is that I think significant change is heading our way. Zeke above in his post points out that the new performance cars from DC are being released as autos. While it may not make sense to him (and others here including myself because we want 6-speeds) it makes perfect sense to the program managers and platform managers who have to meet those sales goals and ROI targets. Without the increased sales of cars with automatics the 6-speed cars may not (and probably will not) exist. In the end I think we have to keep in mind that the Viper in its present low production state may not be able to continue as such with all the marketing and financial challenges it faces. How long do you think Cerebus will allow the Viper to continue like this especially if they determine that they can sell many more and increase their profits/ROI by buiding Vipers with automatics? The true crossroads for the Viper now that its in Cerebus' hands is not if its going to continue, but in what configuaration will the next coming generation be.

 

[Tusc]

That was a good post, MFJ, and a good dose of reality. Although one would hope that the Viper, if it were ever saddled with an auto, would be equipped with a more functional auto/manual trans like the Porsches, Ferraris and Lamborghinis. Not sure if that would increase the ROI given expense, but it would be a fair middle ground IMO.

 

[viperDoug]

Good post indeed. Many die-hards on here forget that the car companies are out to make a profit. If a product, whether it's a viper or roll of toilet paper is not profitable, then it must be discontinued or revised. I have no problem seeing vipers with automatics if thats what it takes to sell more of them and allow me to still puchase one with a manual tranny.

 

[Warfang]

Good post indeed. Many die-hards on here forget that the car companies are out to make a profit. If a product, whether it's a viper or roll of toilet paper is not profitable, then it must be discontinued or revised. I have no problem seeing vipers with automatics if thats what it takes to sell more of them and allow me to still puchase one with a manual tranny.

The Viper was never about making a profit... at least not a huge one. The "return" was in it's improved image to Dodge specifically and Chrysler as a whole... and a platform to study extreme engineering to pass down to the cars that will eventually make more profits. As a marketing study, it exceeded all of its expectations.

Higher ROI doesnt necessarily mean sell more units by compromising the Viper as a brand. You can cut costs, and increase prices. The brand is where the Viper has its value to the company... you can't get that selling 5 times the Vipers today... as a matter of fact, I say if you DO sell more Vipers by dilution (tc, auto, paddles, etc), you dilute the brand, which will cost more in the long run.

 

[DEKE01]

I understand the profit motive and needs, but Warfang is also correct abut brand dilution. Two of the things I like about Vipers are the raw power and the exclusivity. You might sell more Vipers by removing the raw, and that will eliminate the exclusive. Then I'll drive something else.

 

[mjf6175]

That is just it Warfang. You say "the viper is never about making a profit..at least a huge one". We do not know what mind set Cerebus has about what profit it expects of the Viper from this point on. Just because DC viewed the Viper in a certain way in the past does not guarantee that is the way Cerebus will view it in the future. My point is Cerebus is an equity company and its goals just maybe different than the Viper faithful. Cerebus is not interested in the long run, its sights are going to be looking at the here and now which means get the bottom line $$$$ up. They will look at how much they are going to spend on the next generation and how much profit they can make from it. If automatics and electronic add-ons increase that return by more sales I would be surprised if Cerebus leaves that profit on the table.

 

[black mamba1]

This is a slippery slope. Dilute the Viper and draw in more of the general population and alienate the Viper faithful, and also lose the intangibles, such as how the Vipers brutal image draws in other buyers for the Ram, the Charger and upcoming Challenger.

btw, do they make an automatic Porsche 911 Turbo?

 

[mjf6175]

I agree black mamba. That is the exact problem, they may not care if they turn off the faithful here. Is Cerebus concerned with the Viper faithful and the 2000-3000 sales a year or are they looking to maybe 20,000-30,000 sales? If they are $$$$ hungry the answer may not be want we want.

 

[VIPER GTSR 91]

I heard that the Challenger is only going to be available with an automatic. Isn't that a shame?

TRUE, but only for the first year. Thats when I will buy one.

 

[chimazo]

I guess I'm in the minority when I say that I don't think an automatic-equipped Viper would in any way dilute its image. Speed is speed. The new Porsche Turbo has the option of an auto. trans (aka Tiptronic) and it is even quicker than the 6sp. Who wouldn't call any 911 a sportscar??! Also, I hate to break it to some of you, but in drag racing, a good automatic will crush a manual, especially in a turbo car. There are some Corvette (sacriledge!) guys who actually swap out there 6sp for an auto in the name of consistancy, longevity (no more broken halfshafts, etc), and yes, speed (can build boost at the line, quicker shifts, etc.)

Dodge is losing sales to folks who would otherwise perhaps purchase a Viper but for the fact that an auto trans isn't an option. I realize the image of the Viper is "hard-core, no compromise," but I bet there are plenty of enthusiasts who wouldn't mind driving one to work everyday or even using it as their primary vehicle. I don't know about other areas of the country, but where I live, an automatic is really the only practical and livable choice if you have any kind of real commute. I don't care how manly you are, the heavy clutch would make you hate the car in stop and go traffic.

5 of the wealthiest counties in the nation (including the one I live in) are less than an hour's drive, and I see maybe two
C6 Z06's on the road a week, and they made over 8000 of them! I'm lucky if I see a Viper twice a year. Even if Dodge sold twice or three times as many Vipers, you wouldn't see one very often. A car that is too rare or appeals to too exclusive a group has it's downside, too (nothing you folks don't know already). Besides the difficulty and expense in finding parts, the extremely limited aftermarket ***** for those that want to modify or customize their ride. Please save me the "FU, you should have kept your Z06" comments, but as an example, I had the choice of no less than 7 brands (not counting customized vendor options) of forced induction, 5 choices of heads, you get the idea...

If it came down to the viability of the Viper being sold, you wouldn't welcome the option of an automatic trans (vs no more Viper)??

 

[viperdrummer]

Ahh , the age old Vette -Viper discussion. I have owner all 3 Gens of Vipers and C5 and C6 Vettes and grew up with Vettes in my family and would add:

1.Stop Bitchin about Vettes--wthout the Vette there would be no Viper. The Viper mule was a Vette. In return Vipers made Chevy do something they would never have done--make better and better Vettes.

2.Don't be so snooty about automatics. 99% of the folks on this board if they were in a stick Vette would get smoked by an auto in the 1/4. Only the very skilled of us would win out in a stick.

3.That said, God forbid there ever be an auto Viper, a traction control Viper etc etc. Autos is why you see a lot of chicks and 65 yr olds driving Vettes.

4.Vette has the outright claim to America"s sports car". It's been around through thick and then since 53, Duntov, Route 66 you name it. Viper is an exotic, Vette is one of 40,000 a yr. with crappy paint--and by the way, Viper is catching up in the crappy paint department if my 06 is any indication. Gens 1 and 2 had better paint.

Long live Vette and Viper. Just hope Hillary and Gore and friends don't make both obsolete.

 

[Warfang]

Ahh , the age old Vette -Viper discussion. I have owner all 3 Gens of Vipers and C5 and C6 Vettes and grew up with Vettes in my family and would add:

1.Stop Bitchin about Vettes--wthout the Vette there would be no Viper. The Viper mule was a Vette. In return Vipers made Chevy do something they would never have done--make better and better Vettes.

2.Don't be so snooty about automatics. 99% of the folks on this board if they were in a stick Vette would get smoked by an auto in the 1/4. Only the very skilled of us would win out in a stick.

3.That said, God forbid there ever be an auto Viper, a traction control Viper etc etc. Autos is why you see a lot of chicks and 65 yr olds driving Vettes.

4.Vette has the outright claim to America"s sports car". It's been around through thick and then since 53, Duntov, Route 66 you name it. Viper is an exotic, Vette is one of 40,000 a yr. with crappy paint--and by the way, Viper is catching up in the crappy paint department if my 06 is any indication. Gens 1 and 2 had better paint.

Long live Vette and Viper. Just hope Hillary and Gore and friends don't make both obsolete.

Whoever ******* about the Vette has their own issues. It's a great car and has a heritage Viper owners can only dream of. But it's a different kind of car, and one where a Viper will get trounced if we try to play their game.

 

[Kenneth Krieger]

Just got back to my computer to read all the posts! I wasn't trying to make a big thing about the Automatic trans. in my buddies Vette, just that people think that the Viper is CLASS in comparison, at least in many peoples minds. I have a car with GREAT paint and fit and finish. I am VERY pleased with my 05 Comm. Ed.! The people who ride in the car, look the car over with a fine tooth comb, and compare this car to a Porsche, a Ferrari, a Lambo (all costing 2 to 5 times as much) are telling me that the Viper is hands down very close in those aspects of fit and finish. I guess you truly get what you pay for, and my buddy doesn't have to tell me, I can read it in his facial expressions, & his tone of voice when he talks about his car, that he is disappointed in it, and wished he had bought a Viper instead!

 

[redlineviper]

A big part that attracts many of us to a viper is that by most car volume standards it is rare. If I saw 20 vipers everyday like I do vettes I would feel different towards the viper. I think the best answer and compromise is to have a couple or few cars using the same platform. (No, not k car style) rather like the xlr and vette, or the new pontiac G8 and camaro. The viper could share suspension, partial drivetrain, etc, to absorb much of the tooling cost.

 

[Warfang]

A big part that attracts many of us to a viper is that by most car volume standards it is rare. If I saw 20 vipers everyday like I do vettes I would feel different towards the viper. I think the best answer and compromise is to have a couple or few cars using the same platform. (No, not k car style) rather like the xlr and vette, or the new pontiac G8 and camaro. The viper could share suspension, partial drivetrain, etc, to absorb much of the tooling cost.

It was called the Firepower. Daimler canned it. We'll see what the new management does.