How much longer for Gen3 Roe SC ?

[Bobpantax]

Dan incorporated DC Performance, Inc. on December 2, 2002. More than enough time to be heavily involved in the development of the current Gen III Paxton kit. He also has an interesting and highly experienced staff. See below. (Note: My Viper has not been modified by Dan but he has answered a couple of questions for me free of carge.)



DC Performance is a complete performance shop that specializes in service, performance upgrades and tuning for high performance vehicles and racecars.
After 20 years in the automotive industry Dan Cragin (President) decided to form a team of professionals to start a performance orientated business. Dan came from 12 years as a Dodge Viper specialist. He prepared, raced and maintained hundreds of these vehicles. Dan selected individuals who shared his passion for performance and Motor sports. From this team a very unique and dynamic business was formed.

DC Performance has a balanced team of managers and technicians to cover all your performance needs. Dan Cragin gives each customer one on one consultation to meet the demanding expectations of the performance-orientated customer. Tony Parr offers assistance on parts orders and shipments and overseas the main office at DC Performance. He uses his experience of 10 years as a general manager at a Dodge Dealer to make sure operations run smoothly. Kim Cheney is our Motor sports manager. He coordinates the logistics and preparations for all of our Racing operations. With over 30 years in Motor sports and 7 years on Roger Penske”s Indy Car team, he has the knowledge and experience to meet the needs of the racing customer. DC Performance is proud to have 4 professional technicians, including a world-class tuning and diagnostic expert, Chris Jensen.

Our facility features 7 workstations, 4 vehicle lifts, complete diagnostic equipment and an in ground Dynojet chassis dynamometer. We offer flatbed service and long distance shipping of your vehicle.

 

[Joseph Dell]

I don't see anything in there about DC Perf collaborating on the Paxton project...

Again, I'll say that those guys are sharp cookies but it would be mis-speaking to say that they are the designers of the Paxton setup for the GenIII. And as Tony has said, a twin-screw IS different than a roots!

JD

 

[Bobpantax]

You are right, it would be misspeaking. That is why I did not say that Dan and his team were the designers. "Collaborating" is not "designing". I think the Novi 2000 considerably predates the Gen III. Its the overall operational balance of the stock kit that makes it special on the Gen III. With a dynamometer on his premises, Dan can tune and test in real time 24/7. This ability facilitates the development of new and better components and programs. I know that Sean also has a dyno on his premises and I doubt that he could efficiently do the creative development work that he does without it.

Have a good one.

Bob

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Not to hijack this thread as the basic premise was to ask when Roe would be coming out with a Supercharger for a Gen III and I have confidence Sean will all let us know when his product is available.

But to answer some of the other questions, Dan Cragin ( DC Performance ) has been working with Paxton even prior to when he formed DC Performance ( 2001 ) and he did work extensively on the Gen III. Thanks to Bob P. for giving us more credit than is due, as we have only had an strong working relationship with Paxton due to the large number of installs we have done ( over 85 ), and whereas we have worked with improvements and fine tuning, Dan deserves the credit for technical magic for the Viper.

As for Doug Levin , I think even Dan would have to give kudos to Mr. Levin for starting the revolution and though I do not know for sure , logic says that Doug has worked closely with Paxton over the years also.

All threee of the gentleman are class acts so I shall end with that, but I did feel we may have been give more credit than is due us as the Pioneers are definitely Doug and Dan. We have definitely been standing up to the plate on the Gen IIIs and that is due to Mark Jorgensen and Aaron Guierro ( Viper Tech ). But if not for the ground laid by DLM and DC who knows where the destiny of the Paxton and the Viper would be today?

Respectfully,
Bill Pemberton
Woodhouse Viper
Blair, Nebraska

 

[Bobpantax]

Thanks Bill. I was only discussing the Gen III stock Paxton kit. There is no doubt that Doug was one of the first, if not the first, individuals to supercharge a Viper and deserves a VCA wide thank you for being brave enough to wade into the water before any beach or lifeguard existed.

On another front (pun intended), how cold is it and how many inches of snow do you have out there in Blair? It was over 90 here yesterday. Perhaps you can send some of your snow down here for us to use in our tea.

 

[SylvanSRT]

Yellow snow makes great tea!

 

[Bobpantax]

Yellow snow makes great tea!

I will have to defer to your knowledge on this subject. When I lived in the Northeast, yellow snow meant that the neighbor's dog had recently visited our yard after the snow storm stopped. But who am I to judge. If you're in to yellow snow tea, I am not aware of any law prohibiting you from indulging yourself. Cheers!

I apologize for the off point comment in advance.

 

[zorroespanol]

Dude, you are linking to KB webpage!! of course that they want to differentiate their CRAPPY product form the average roots blower.

Big deal that the screws look a little different, it is still a roots, and crap.

KB has been the cheap, low level S/C for many cars, Mustangs, Ricers, etc.... and it is ALWAYS in the bottom of the food chain. I never understood why anyone would every buy those when they had other alternatives... ?? I guess lack of homework.

Centrifugal and gear driven is the way to go. or Turbos....

From my understanding there are considered to be two types of superchargers(three if you count turbos). Rootes(displacement), Centrifigul(belt or gear driven turbos for all practical purposes) and turbos(exhaust driven superchargers). then may we agree that it is a roots style?based? if it is not a centrifigul and it looks like a roots style externally but the main difference being that it has screw style vanes on the rotors instead of straight vanes on a conventional rootes. or we may just agree to disagree.

I guess we will disagree then because they are different I could care less which one anyone buys but lets stay with the facts.

Read this:
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/twinscrew-vs-roots-fromcatalog.pdf

An orange and a grapefruit look basically the same on the outside, but.....

 

[DMan]

Zorro, I tend to agree with your posts I've read, but not the one above ... KB is cheap, junk, not in my exp. All the KB setups I've seen are monsters and extremely durable. Although I'm on my 2nd Viper, I'm a Mustang guy too, 5 of them including and 03 Cobra - putting a KB on a Cobra or a new GT500 makes insane reliable power. I've gone 11.93 in my Viper, still bone stock, but it's my slowest of all those cars, right now anyway.

If KB is "low level" cause it's on Mustang's or ricers, then so is Paxton, it's been on Mustangs since the 60's, 2 of my stang's have had Paxtons, 1 Vortech, 1 ProCharger(wicked), 1 KB ... all were outstanding and no prob's, all low 11 sec cars in total street trim tuned where my wife could drive 'em.

I know it's opinion, but thought I'd throw mine in too then, KB "cheap", not IMHO. In fact other than PowerDyne (remember that one, internal belt driven), all the SC etups are quite solid and proven.

Does this qualify as a tangent yet? lol
Dave.

 

[Sean Roe]

I've been driving the shop 2003 with 3.3 liter Lysholm twin screw blower on it since Thursday.

IT HAULS ASS AND LOOKS AWESOME!

On the Paxton kit, ask them what they do about the 1.4 seconds of closed loop when you go full throttle. During this time, the air / fuel ratio is approximately 14.7:1. Answer is.....nothing.
Their biggest downfalls are engine management and running 8+ psi to make a good peak HP number at the highest RPM area only. We've had a lot of people talk with us after getting their Paxton's on the dyno, so the world is not such a rosy place over there either.

The new kit I'm making for the Gen3 is a total, leaps and bounds, evolution of the previous Gen1 and Gen2 kits we made. We're actually getting up to 4 MPG more on the Ram trucks vs the stock manifold. I really took a hell of a lot of time to improve the air distribution over the stock manifold, which runs the center cylinders perfect, the fronts lean and the rears rich. We picked up power and fuel economy just by evening out the distribution of air.

And if you think I'm doing all this just to sell blowers, you're dead wrong. I'm doing it because I want to have the absolute best system on my own car. I bought a Paxton kit and installed it on my shop Ram SRT-10 and am very familiar with its characteristics. I'm building myself a better option for the car, just like I did for the truck (we've been producing the truck kits since September).

By the way, the comments about heat and band aids, what BS. I put the stock Paxton kit on my truck, did a cold pull of 618 RWHP and did two more pulls one minute apart each after. The second and third pulls were both over 50 RWHP less than the cold one and the air / fuel ratio got richer each time too (in the 10's). Mine's only dropping half that power and it isn't using water injection or any other band aids to do it. If anyone wants to come in and drive the shop car, come on over. You tell me what you think about the torque and power band.

Here's a pic of the truck kit using a radial (top inlet) compressor. The car is using the axial (rear inlet) version.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Zorro twin screw is not a roots type supercharger. They are significantly more efficient overall. They are of course a displacement type supercharger, and as such, much more relevant to OEM use.

A variable displacement supercharger, like the centrifugal mentioned by Zorro, is not favorable due to its non-linear behavior. Not that it is bad for making power, its that it produces very little boost at lower rpm where an OEM wants it. In general an OEM wants a supercharged engine to act like a larger displacement engine. To do that it needs to provide fairly even boost.

I suggest you read up on superchargers before making such outlandish statements.

 

[Vipermann]

Jeeez ... what did I start here. I have learned quite a bit ... it seems like the 'twin screw' does have some key differences (lower temps for one).

Having owned a C5 Vette before my Viper, I do know that the Roe type Sc is very popular with the Vette guys ... I think they call it a 'Magnacharger' or something ... but it does require a raised hood.

 

[SylvanSRT]

Dont take my comments wrong i think both(or all three) have advantages and disadvantages(cost, hp/tq, weight, complexity and other factors). I had a '91 Miata with an rootes style blower on it(Eaton) and the car was great. I have spoke to several people with Sean's Roe s/c and they have all liked, same with the people i have spoke to that have an Paxton kit. Both good and depending on your budget and hp/tq expectations will help you to decide what will best work for your particular situation.

 

[Bobpantax]

"On the Paxton kit, ask them what they do about the 1.4 seconds of closed loop when you go full throttle. During this time, the air / fuel ratio is approximately 14.7:1. Answer is.....nothing.
Their biggest downfalls are engine management and running 8+ psi to make a good peak HP number at the highest RPM area only. We've had a lot of people talk with us after getting their Paxton's on the dyno, so the world is not such a rosy place over there either."

Hi Sean. I can't speak for the use of the Paxton beyond the stock kit other than to state that I have heard stories from a number of owners of such vehicles that when you go beyond the stock kit, fuel management problems tend to appear very quickly and that the AEM computer with proper tuning is the remedy for those problems. However, on the stock kit for the Gen III, which I have now had for 6100 miles, there have been no problems. I did three dyno pulls on February 9 of this year and the A/F ratio was perfect on all three. In each case, the dyno tech, who was driving the car on the dyno, went to full throttle immediately. The boost did not exceed 7 pounds at 6000RPM. The Dynojet numbers were 653.93/598.16. There can be an issue with A/F if the 1 and 7/8 inch disk is inside the pressure sensor instead of the 2.2 inch disk. At our altitude, etc., if the smaller disk is in the pressure sensor, at WOT it will run too lean over a considerable part of the RPM range and above 5000 RPM it will start to ping.

Lastly, the power does come in a bit later with the Paxton than with your kit but rear wheel torque was still above 500 with the Paxton by 2950 RPM; above 590 by about 4385 RPM; and stayed above 590 until about 5620 RPM.

I think that Paxton stock kit installers should also comment on your "closed loop" assertion. It would be interesting and helpful.

Regards to Dave and the Seanettes.

Bob

 

[KenH]

I don't suppose the 3.3L blower mates up to the Gen 2 Roe manifold does it?

 

[zorroespanol]

Let's agree to disagree, maybe we've had different experiences.

I don't mean to say that KB us low quality because it is used on Stangs and ricers. I meant to say that it is popular with those cars, and it always underperforms when compared to the gear driven centrifugals.

I don't have stat sheets to back me up now, but from my experience I've always seen the KB setup underperform when compared to a gear drive centrifugal, let it be Vortech or Procharger. BTW, Powerdyne is crap just as well. (are they even still around?)

As for Paxton being crap, they were until Vortech bought them. Before I realized this and I read about so many Vipers with Paxtons I thought these guys must be nuts!! Then I realize it is just a Vortech with a Paxton label.

Cheers.

Zorro, I tend to agree with your posts I've read, but not the one above ... KB is cheap, junk, not in my exp. All the KB setups I've seen are monsters and extremely durable. Although I'm on my 2nd Viper, I'm a Mustang guy too, 5 of them including and 03 Cobra - putting a KB on a Cobra or a new GT500 makes insane reliable power. I've gone 11.93 in my Viper, still bone stock, but it's my slowest of all those cars, right now anyway.

If KB is "low level" cause it's on Mustang's or ricers, then so is Paxton, it's been on Mustangs since the 60's, 2 of my stang's have had Paxtons, 1 Vortech, 1 ProCharger(wicked), 1 KB ... all were outstanding and no prob's, all low 11 sec cars in total street trim tuned where my wife could drive 'em.

I know it's opinion, but thought I'd throw mine in too then, KB "cheap", not IMHO. In fact other than PowerDyne (remember that one, internal belt driven), all the SC etups are quite solid and proven.

Does this qualify as a tangent yet? lol
Dave.

 

[Vipermann]

I've been driving the shop 2003 with 3.3 liter Lysholm twin screw blower on it since Thursday.

IT HAULS ASS AND LOOKS AWESOME!

How bout a pic of the Gen3 test mule you're working on? ... give us some idea of what to expect.

(so many vipers have stripes already on their hoods ... sitting here with fingers crossed there's some way to go other than a new hood)

 

[ILLSMOQ]

looks and sounds good so far...could you tell us more Sean? Also the new one is 3.3 liter, how big was the gen II blower?

 

[Sean Roe]

Good Morning...

Sorry if I sounded like I was knocking the Paxton kit when I posted last night. I just spent enough time and money to really get into their kit and determine strengths and weaknesses. Let's face it, they've been blowing motors (tongue firmly planted in cheek) much longer than we have, so I consider them a benchmark to surpass. They have a good blower, but they did fall short on some other aspects of the kit (not that I haven’t had a few shortcomings of my own).

There are distinct differences in the way the two types of compressors work. We all know this. Making a big peak number is great when you’re at full throttle, but I like getting pushed back in the seat and feeling the tires spin a little at 60 mph in 3rd gear and 3/4 throttle. I rarely drive at full throttle. I like throttle response. Therefore, we use a positive displacement blower. To each their own though. I’m not knocking what anyone else chooses to do with their vehicles.

As far as the closed loop delay, it is real, it is a problem, but the tuners just don’t talk about it much. It shows up on stock vehicles also. There are two ways to get rid of it. A PCM flash or what we figured out with using the VEC3. Put a wideband sensor in the exhaust pipe near the manifold (not downstream where there’s a delay or post cats) and you’ll see it. You can also read it by logging the injector pulse in milliseconds. There’s a sharp spike at 1.4 seconds after full throttle is applied. There’s also a vast difference between the AF on individual cylinders. You have to run a wideband sensor in every hole on one bank to see how big it is with the stock manifold. That’s why our truck kit did not end up being produced with the “sidewinder” version I built for one guy. I just wasn’t happy with the front cylinders running leaner and the rears richer. Went through that enough on the Gen1 and Gen2 kits, which I plan to go back and retro fit with improvements.

As far as the 3.3L working on the Gen1 / Gen2, I haven’t put one on my car yet, but will after I get the Gen3 car kit in production. One of the things that cost me so much time in building the Gen3 car kit was that I was doing too many things at once. I’ve since learned to slow the business down to make it more efficient (fewer employees and less problems too).

For pics, I‘ll hold off posting for now. I made that mistake on the truck kit. I ended up changing the configuration and it was far different than what people expected. That’s a truck kit in the pic above. The car is the same except the inlet, which I’m playing around with still. I’d like to keep it under the hood, but it’s very difficult.

Regards,
Sean

 

[Finally got it !]

Good Morning...

Sorry if I sounded like I was knocking the Paxton kit when I posted last night. I just spent enough time and money to really get into their kit and determine strengths and weaknesses. Let's face it, they've been blowing motors (tongue firmly planted in cheek) much longer than we have, so I consider them a benchmark to surpass. They have a good blower, but they did fall short on some other aspects of the kit (not that I haven’t had a few shortcomings of my own).

There are distinct differences in the way the two types of compressors work. We all know this. Making a big peak number is great when you’re at full throttle, but I like getting pushed back in the seat and feeling the tires spin a little at 60 mph in 3rd gear and 3/4 throttle. I rarely drive at full throttle. I like throttle response. Therefore, we use a positive displacement blower. To each their own though. I’m not knocking what anyone else chooses to do with their vehicles.

As far as the closed loop delay, it is real, it is a problem, but the tuners just don’t talk about it much. It shows up on stock vehicles also. There are two ways to get rid of it. A PCM flash or what we figured out with using the VEC3. Put a wideband sensor in the exhaust pipe near the manifold (not downstream where there’s a delay or post cats) and you’ll see it. You can also read it by logging the injector pulse in milliseconds. There’s a sharp spike at 1.4 seconds after full throttle is applied. There’s also a vast difference between the AF on individual cylinders. You have to run a wideband sensor in every hole on one bank to see how big it is with the stock manifold. That’s why our truck kit did not end up being produced with the “sidewinder” version I built for one guy. I just wasn’t happy with the front cylinders running leaner and the rears richer. Went through that enough on the Gen1 and Gen2 kits, which I plan to go back and retro fit with improvements.

As far as the 3.3L working on the Gen1 / Gen2, I haven’t put one on my car yet, but will after I get the Gen3 car kit in production. One of the things that cost me so much time in building the Gen3 car kit was that I was doing too many things at once. I’ve since learned to slow the business down to make it more efficient (fewer employees and less problems too).

For pics, I‘ll hold off posting for now. I made that mistake on the truck kit. I ended up changing the configuration and it was far different than what people expected. That’s a truck kit in the pic above. The car is the same except the inlet, which I’m playing around with still. I’d like to keep it under the hood, but it’s very difficult.

Regards,
Sean

I will say it again. Posts like this only come from class act tuners. Thanks Sean for the info.

 

[black mamba1]

I just got my 04 SRT-10 in last September 06. Sean sold me the full Belanger exhaust system plus the VEC 3 in December 06. Chuck (the best) Tator installed the system. Not only does my car run cooler, gets better gas mileage, I GET 10X as many stares and honks as before. Kids lose their mind when I drive by. My car sounds much meaner and is quicker. Now, like the rest of you, I am about to lose my mind waiting on the Gen 3 Roe charger. I will say this, Sean has responded to every email I have ever sent him and his systems are well thought out. I too wish I could slap the Gen 3 Roe charger on this weekend; but I once heard a wise man say "good things are worth the wait."

Keith "Black Mamba"

 

[DocAdam]

Too much of this thread is being lost in the semantics of roots versus screw type. The fact is they operate in a similar fashion and can both be referred to as "postive displacement superchargers," versus centrifugal (ie paxton/vortech). The difference between roots (eaton) and screw type is in their adiabatic efficiency.

Positive displacement and centrifugal are different and can't be compared in an apples to apples way. If you have driven both types then you know what you prefer, and that may be very different from someone else.

Personally, I have had an eaton, a whipple and a vortech at different times, on completely different cars, and can't wait for the Roe kit to be available.

 

[Flash1034]

Bottom Line: We STILL dont have any idea when (or if) that may be.

Flash

 

[zorroespanol]

I suggest the same to you.

I know that the centrifugal SC is variable displacement, just like a turbo. Are you then saying that twin screw blowers are better than turbos?? please.

a Viper's primary need when installing force induction is not more low end torque, it is top-end H.P.

That is what a centrifulgal SC or a turbo delivers.

Unless you are going to be pulling stumps with your viper, I see no reason to go with the roots or twin screw in the Viper (at the same price level, of course)

Zorro twin screw is not a roots type supercharger. They are significantly more efficient overall. They are of course a displacement type supercharger, and as such, much more relevant to OEM use.

A variable displacement supercharger, like the centrifugal mentioned by Zorro, is not favorable due to its non-linear behavior. Not that it is bad for making power, its that it produces very little boost at lower rpm where an OEM wants it. In general an OEM wants a supercharged engine to act like a larger displacement engine. To do that it needs to provide fairly even boost.

I suggest you read up on superchargers before making such outlandish statements.

 

[SylvanSRT]

Sean do have a schedule date(even a tentative one)?


how far along is the development? and what hp numbers are you putting down if you've got that far yet? thx

 

[Schulmann]

Stunning ...
That explains why a couple of GEN3 Vipers (supercharged and not supercharged) blowup in our club ...

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Agreed...stunning...

You must be registered for see images

 

[BLWNGTS]

I believe the Gen II superchargers where 2.4 liter. And remember guys....with twin screw, they are suppose to be HALF the displacement of the engine to get the most efficient power without heat loss!!

 

[Flash1034]

Its awfully quiet regarding a possible date of availability for the Roe unit. Chirp, Chirp, Cricket, Chricket... Sure would like to have some idea...

Flash

 

[Sean Roe]

The 1/2 the displacement post by Blwn isn't quite 100% accurate.
If you doubt me, just look at the units used on production vehicles, Magnuson, Whipple and Kenne Bell kits.
I agree, the bigger the better, but 1/2 the displacement is not normal.
These are four stroke engines. The engine only moves 1/2 the total displacement per revolution, so it doesn't take a 4L blower to maintain efficiency on an 8L engine operating at low boost and under 6,000 RPM.
Yes, the G1 and G2 kit is using the 2.4L. It will push 12 psi on that application, but gets real hot. 8psi is a great place for it to run on a Viper.

Ok, onto release dates....
Here's my dilemma; when my day starts, I have about four things on my “to do” list. Working on the Gen3 car kit is usually #4. As I'm doing the other things, a VEC2 comes in for an update, I get a phone call, someone stops by and suddenly, it's noon. After lunch, the same routine starts and I get maybe an hour on the car kit, which is what happened today.

Trust me, it makes me sick to my stomach how long I've been working on this and how long other people have waited. If you feel you have to do something to the car and don't want to put a Paxton on, consider an aluminum flywheel and the VEC3, both of which will really wake the car up in terms of throttle response.
Since there are a lot of very experienced business owners on here, what do you guys do to keep from getting stuck in this daily rut? I could use a suggestion because I really want to get this finished.

For power, on our totally stock car, including cats, we picked up about 130 RWHP with 5.5psi. The exhaust is restricting power at this point, but I'm not ready to put an exhaust on the car yet. My main issue is getting everything under the hood and into the blower. The really hard work is done. Now it's just the piddly time consuming, trying to figure out the best method, type of work.

If you guys want me to set a "do or die" timeline, I'll try. Maybe I can justify not taking calls if I have a timeline that I must meet.

Regards,
Sean