If A Paddle Shifting Transmission Was Available In 2009, Anyone Buying One?

[Warfang]

Can you back this up with documentation please? I would like to see documentation of this for no later than 3 to 4 years back.




Can you back this up with documentation please?




No kidding? I don't think anyone at all is arguing that fact - so chill! I'm never going to be a great driver, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't want to own a Viper with options that will allow me to enjoy it more fully for my ability (applies to TC). As for sequential manual gearboxes, I simply want the ability to shift the gears myself, while also not dealing with a clutch pedal any longer. If sequential gearboxes were not RACE INSPIRED to begin with, I might be against it even - but it IS race inspired!

I see it like this - If I'm out on a road race track and I have a Viper with a super-fast sequential gearbox and paddle shifters which allow me to shift gears and keep both hands on the steering wheel at all times, and having this option (which allows me to drive better and faster than I could with a full stick/clutch pedal manual), along with perhaps TC and better yet - E- Diff, allows me to beat anyone else who does NOT have these options but is a WAAAAAAAY better a driver than I am . . . . . I would care less that I was the lesser skilled/talented driver, because the bottom line is - I WON!




The Viper's "bad" reputation really has much to do with the mind set of the individual owner who has a inner complex with his masculinity, but I will step over to your understanding of the current Viper. However, I will say that a Viper offered with defeatable TC, E-Diff and a paddle shifted sequential manual gearbox (which is not nanny tech) would not hurt the Viper's reputation (and undoubtable make it even faster on a road race track) as long as there was the OPTION of the old stick and clutch pedal model to purchase. You could have your masculinizing full manual and turn off your TC and maybe it will be enough to throw away the ******.

The rest of us - secure in ourselves - will opt for what is vastly more commonly seen in road racing environments, and I for one would love it and be as proud as anyone else!

Do your own searches. I remember some idiot on a corvette team complained about the viper in an open letter about a year or two ago asking for more restrictions on the Vipers.

I didn't know PMUM... only read of his exploits, so maybe someone here can speak up about that. I read in one of the threads last month remembering him about the idiots whining after losing to him.

 

[xanadu]

Of course it takes more to develop the motor. THATS WHERE WE WANT THE EFFORT TO GO TO. duh.

Hmmm. Let me ask two questions:

1) Since you are only intrested in engine advancements, exactly how much horsepower would you say will be completely enough - no more?

2) What level of horsepower (number) will you say that the Viper will no longer see sales great enough to justify a continued production run?

The way I see it, for every 1 Viper owner wanting radically more hp - there are probably at least 5, if not more like 10 Viper owners who are more than satisfied with the 500hp (or less) that they currently have. So it would seem that it's not the radical owners doing crazy hp mods that keep the sales high enough to even justify a continuation of production. In other words, eventually - the common potential NEW Viper owner - will not be interested in purchasing something with 700, 800, 900 horsepower that's just not controllable, at which point, if the ********* radical hp freaks are not buying those produced each year - oh well, there goes the whole dang thing - RIP Viper.

 

[Warfang]

Eliminating ABS, TC and adding grooved tires so the 200-million-dollar teams can compete with the 600-million-dollar teams? LOL C'mon, you can't seriously believe that.

Besides, as we all know "op-shuns" like that aren't expensive.

That sounded like Check and Mate.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Vette's are cookie cutter cars made with plastic bodies. The Z06 is very impressive, but it looks too much like the common Vette that is seen passing by on every street each 2 or 3 minutes.

The Viper is a low production run and therefore not so "dime a dozen".

I figured. The "exclusitivity" needs.

 

[xanadu]

I figured. The "exclusitivity" needs.

Sounds better than having issues with one's man-hood, err manliness, umm, I mean masculinity.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Sounds better than having issues with one's man-hood, err manliness, umm, I mean masculinity.

Right Wanting a Viper because nobody else has one is the same as wanting a Viper because it requires the driver to develop skill and pay attention.

You enjoy everybody looking at you and saying "Wow, he has a Viper!"

I enjoy shifting gears and modulating foot pedals.

Yeah, I got real issues I do.

BTW In my youth I enjoyed playing football, basketball and baseball. I assume you just wore the uniform.

 

[Warfang]

Sounds better than having issues with one's man-hood, err manliness, umm, I mean masculinity.

Sounds kinda "metro" to me. We all know what that's keyword for.

 

[Vipermann]

Very interesting Vipermann -

Gears can be changed NOW as an aftermarket product
carbon fiber hood and trunk can be changed NOW as an aftermarket product
better interior materials can be changed NOW as an aftermarket product
2-pc brake rotors can be changed NOW as an aftermarket product
race-looking seat belts can be changed NOW as an aftermarket product
cruise control can be changed NOW as an aftermarket product

So 6 out of 8 that you listed can be changed RIGHT NOW with aftermarket parts, but things that cannot be changed with aftermarket parts are not worthy of a consideration first - hmmm!

Funny how "race looking seat belts" is of more importance than race inspired gearboxes and shifting options. How pathetic.

What does something being available via the after-market have to do with something's merit as a potential improvement from the factory??? That might be the stupidest response ever posted here on this board. Many significant improvements (for any car) often appear first in the aftermarket before they are incorporated from the factory.

As for better seat belts, yes I would like them, simple as that is -- and that just shows you my view as to just how meaningless and undesireable a paddle-shifter would be compared to the new '08 manual 6-speed.

Bottom Line: If a paddle-shifter would mean that much to someone, they really don't get what the Viper has ever stood for. Hint: The Original Viper was inspired by the AC Cobra, with Shelby's involvement ... it was NOT inspired by a Ferrari of any kind, past or present. It's all about RAW performance -- not F1 technology.

Paddle-shifters on the street? Perfect for those wannabes with nice driving shoes that have never attended a driving school nor have any clue as to h/t driving skills.

 

[xanadu]

Sounds kinda "metro" to me. We all know what that's keyword for.

You'll have to try harder than that. Like I've previously said, I'm an outspoken, opinionated, Born-again, Southern Baptist, Right Wing, anti-abortion, Conservative Capitalist Jesus freak - I've been attacked and that was like a weak thump with a broken finger.

 

[Warfang]

You'll have to try harder than that. Like I've previously said, I'm an outspoken, opinionated, Born-again, Southern Baptist, Right Wing, anti-abortion, Conservative Capitalist Jesus freak - I've been attacked and that was like a weak thump with a broken finger.

Right on, brother! ....but there's nothing wrong with being metro. We'll still accept you for who you are.

 

[xanadu]

What does something being available via the after-market have to do with something's merit as a potential improvement from the factory??? That might be the stupidest response ever posted here on this board. Many significant improvements (for any car) often appear first in the aftermarket before they are incorporated from the factory.

As for better seat belts, yes I would like them, simple as that is -- and that just shows you my view as to just how meaningless and undesireable a paddle-shifter would be compared to the new '08 manual 6-speed.

Bottom Line: If a paddle-shifter would mean that much to someone, they really don't get what the Viper has ever stood for. Hint: The Original Viper was inspired by the AC Cobra, with Shelby's involvement ... it was NOT inspired by a Ferrari of any kind, past or present. It's all about RAW performance -- not F1 technology.

Paddle-shifters on the street? Perfect for those wannabes with nice driving shoes that have never attended a driving school nor have any clue as to h/t driving skills.

That was too funny to read. Nah, why would you want to see the Viper any more like the current high end cars winning serious road races. Just get some seat belts and feel the passion.

Why see the Viper continue in production another several years either? The bottom line is really this:

The redline for horsepower that the average consumer looking at potential NEW Viper ownership is coming to a close rapidly. The Viper hp freaks don't buy new Vipers every year, much less one every 3 or 4 years. Potential new Viper owners, who are the one's which will keep the Viper sales alive and the production going further - for the most part, these people are not going to be thrilled with so much massive hp that is not controllable. So either DC starts to offer new reasons for the Viper to be purchased, or just change the body style one last time for a couple more years production run and call it quits.

Would it be worth it to only build 200 to 500 Vipers per year to be sold only to the die hard purists (because of no other interested buyers available)? Not likely a cost effective and profitable scenario. Would it be worth it to tool up the plant and make a run of 1,000 for one year, then skip the next - to keep the sales moving along with production - knowing that the vast number of sales are going to be to those purists only, as no one else will be interested? Nope, that scenario has financial losses written all over it too.

When you look at the numbers of Vipers for sale on the net, say on Ebay, Autotrader, DuPont Registry, Cars.com, etc. - how often does a really modded out one show up in the whole lot of them? Hardly none, maybe, MAYBE 1 per 500, 1 per 400 at best. That goes to show, very, very few Viper owners ever did any mods - they are not the hp freaks, but they ARE the group that keeps the sales and production alive! The Viper freaks doing all of the mods that scream for purism, they are not the one's buying new Vipers and keeping an icon viable. Better start thinking about what's going to sell the cars to the group that's buying them, not the very small group that mods them and holds onto them for 4, 5, 6, or in some cases - 10 years.

Chevy can continue to up the anty on the Viper, because it has a main backup "standard version" - a high production / high selling version for its main profits. The Viper has no other backup model to sell. There is no high production/ high selling "standard" Viper with 400 hp at $50,000 selling by the thousands to offset the production costs while keeping the MSRP down, like with the Vettes. Eventually, the horsepower will be at a maximum for the common "new model" buyer (likely now in the 2008 model) to have any interest in purchasing. Then the costs of adding titanium, aluminum, carbon fiber, carbon/ceramic brakes and the like into a big car with a V-10 will push the costs well over $100,000 anyway. End result - dead sales and car lots filled with unsold new Vipers (sound familiar?).

Basically, the Viper is likely a doomed vehicle. Keep thinking hp is the answer. Keep thinking light weight materials / composites are the answer. Keep thinking "seat belts" for crying out loud. That will certainly sell the car for another 10 years.

With the die hard purists thinking, the Viper is a dead horse - just like the Cobra.

 

[2000_Black_RT10]

Okay, once again I will defer back to the article I've posted here (#92) From that above article, my calculations would put the maximum torque at 626.96 lb. ft.

Also, you can see the reference to its use with the Cummins Turbo-diesel as well as the very end another mention of "diesel" torque.


Next.

The dual clutch setup does sound interesting, but you're missing the point. The reaction time of the change in engine rpm relative to the rear wheel rpm is the challenge in a quick gear change w/o tire slippage. The documentation you pasted does not indicate if the engine rpm will be adjusted during shift change.

Do you know what happens at this point quoted below? Is the engine rpm adjusted automatically during a pause of clutch change over? Do the clutches slip? I suspect not much slippage because they are using electro-mechanical clutch actuators, which needs to be described because it is a challenge for variable clamping force, predicting click open and click shut. Or are you just copying info from the internet?

"the driving clutch will be released and the released clutch will be engaged"

Diesels only rev up to 3500 rpm or so and have an approx 17.5:1 compression ratio, completely different animal regarding my point of engine rpm management. The Allison is great for a diesel auto application, which also has auto downshifting and engine braking. There has to be some slip or a change in the rpm relationship, for instance the failure of Ford E4OD auto behind the 7.3L diesel was due to the additional slippage, otherwise it would be a hard shift. The dual clutch will surely help survival of the trans compared to replace the current auto trans in the Dodge minivans and trucks which is greatly needed and anticipated, yet I still don't think it will be a significant advantage in a Viper regarding shifting speed, that was my previous point.

Technically the ideal solution would be a CVT and forget about shifting, but they still need lots of work for these types of applications..

Sure on the street, you can take a minivan and pedal to the floor, an instant 1 - 2 shift maybe result in a tire chirp and the motor would hesitate. Try taking a Viper, pedal to the floor and an instant 1 - 2 shift will put you in the ditch without engine rpm management, going back to the point in my previous reply, how fast can you change the rpm of the big V10 without slipping a clutch?

I used go to Highland Park (when it existed) working with the transmission folks at Chrysler in the past in the 90s. I worked in Advanced Vehicle Engineering, worked in Concept Vehicle Synthesis at DCX in Auburn Hills Michigan, worked with many folks from Jeep Truck Engineering for many years and at suppliers, Chrysler R&D Center in Windsor, the Viper group on Featherstone Road, supported large car / LX chassis, small car, and minivan design.

I just pulled out the DMF from my diesel truck yesterday, do you know what that is?

Let us know what you find next..

 

[xanadu]

The dual clutch setup does sound interesting, but you're missing the point. The reaction time of the change in engine rpm relative to the rear wheel rpm is the challenge in a quick gear change w/o tire slippage. The documentation you pasted does not indicate if the engine rpm will be adjusted during shift change.

Do you know what happens at this point quoted below? Is the engine rpm adjusted automatically during a pause of clutch change over? Do the clutches slip? I suspect not much slippage because they are using electro-mechanical clutch actuators, which needs to be described because it is a challenge for variable clamping force, predicting click open and click shut. Or are you just copying info from the internet?

You've got me!!! I have no idea. I just copied and pasted an article. Perhaps ViperPhil can shed some light. He seems to be a pretty smart cookie with mechanical engineering stuff. I'm still trying to figure out what prophecy expert Chuck Missler was talking about physics wise from a CD I listened to last night. My brain is still fried from his seminar.

"the driving clutch will be released and the released clutch will be engaged"

Diesels only rev up to 3500 rpm or so and have an approx 17.5:1 compression ratio, completely different animal regarding my point of engine rpm management. The Allison is great for a diesel auto application, which also has auto downshifting and engine braking. There has to be some slip or a change in the rpm relationship, for instance the failure of Ford E4OD auto behind the 7.3L diesel was due to the additional slippage, otherwise it would be a hard shift. The dual clutch will surely help survival of the trans compared to replace the current auto trans in the Dodge minivans and trucks which is greatly needed and anticipated, yet I still don't think it will be a significant advantage in a Viper regarding shifting speed, that was my previous point.

Technically the ideal solution would be a CVT and forget about shifting, but they still need lots of work for these types of applications..

Sure on the street, you can take a minivan and pedal to the floor, an instant 1 - 2 shift maybe result in a tire chirp and the motor would hesitate. Try taking a Viper, pedal to the floor and an instant 1 - 2 shift will put you in the ditch without engine rpm management, going back to the point in my previous reply, how fast can you change the rpm of the big V10 without slipping a clutch?

I used go to Highland Park (when it existed) working with the transmission folks at Chrysler in the past in the 90s. I worked in Advanced Vehicle Engineering, worked in Concept Vehicle Synthesis at DCX in Auburn Hills Michigan, worked with many folks from Jeep Truck Engineering for many years and at suppliers, Chrysler R&D Center in Windsor, the Viper group on Featherstone Road, supported large car / LX chassis, small car, and minivan design.

I just pulled out the DMF from my diesel truck yesterday, do you know what that is?

Let us know what you find next..

That's pretty interesting stiff there Bud. Do you know any old cohorts that might know the answers? Asking me is asking the absolute wrong person. I can talk about medicine, anatomy, physiology, diseases, physics and ultrasound - but you've got me with these questions. An SRT engineer would be helpful right now.

 

[2000_Black_RT10]

Old school trans experts at Chrysler retired. There's Mr. Mancini, he lead the 727, great guy, he also sells transmissions now through Mancini outside of Detroit, I actually got a race transmissions built for one of his personal cars for my Hemi Barracuda. I worked with a supervisor Bill in Highland, I forgot his last name.. For the new stuff, I could find out, it's just a matter of sending a note. Unfortunately any new development news would be on the sly, and it would be infringing on corporate confidentiality agreements, especially since I'm still somewhat related to Chrysler business & technology where I work, needing to respect this, that and keep my job..

I would be interested to see the new dual clutch design. For the diesel application, this will be of personal interest. Here's pics of my DMF below (from a GM V8 Duramax diesel, ZF 6 spd transmission, similar setup for Ford trucks also). The crank on an engine rotates with a pulse, or frequency. It's not a smooth rotation of force, like pedalling a bike, each stroke results in a rotational force / spike. It's needed to absorb the pulse with springs, either in the clutch disc, or in a DMF / Dual Mass Flywheel, such as for a diesel which has high compression. Here's the DMF in my garage floor, note the clutch disc has no springs. The DMF contains the springs, 2 halves that rotate to absorb the spikes. This goes back to Porsches in the 60s / 70s, to absorb the spike in the 4 bangers, designed by LUK out of Germany. Automatics can absorb the spike in the convertor, etc.. It's surely going to be a heavier flywheel and multiple clutch assembly. Dual clutch discs already exist in aftermarket applications for diesels, but they grab simultaneously, whereas this new dual clutch design is independent. Very interesting to see how it will work in a diesel. There's quite a bit to consider when designing transmissions. Type of engine, compression ratio, number of cylinders, spikes, input shaft rpm, hp & tq, output haft rpm, GVW, crank damper, etc..

You must be registered for see images

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[mike & juli]

Mike--you are too intelligent for me to follow ya!!! Wish we could all know the things that you do...thanx for explaining them to us!!~~~~juli

 

[2000_Black_RT10]

Mike--you are too intelligent for me to follow ya!!! Wish we could all know the things that you do...thanx for explaining them to us!!~~~~juli

You are always too kind our dear Juli. I learn heck of alot here more than I babble about.

 

[xanadu]

2000Black RT10 -

Thanks, but dang Bud, I'm way lost. You're speaking a language I've never heard before. Important thing would be to keep the job, so let's not go anywhere that would be jeopardized.

So you live in RUSH country (hence my screen name)? Neil Peart rules!

 

[2000_Black_RT10]

xanadu - You are now on my hit list next time I have a questions about:
"I can talk about medicine, anatomy, physiology, diseases, physics and ultrasound "

Great mix of knowledge here. We got Tator, and many others, it's endless.

 

[2snakes]

Id Rather Eat Worm Than Drive A Automatic

 

[Vipermann]

That was too funny to read. Nah, why would you want to see the Viper any more like the current high end cars winning serious road races. Just get some seat belts and feel the passion.

Why see the Viper continue in production another several years either? The bottom line is really this:

The redline for horsepower that the average consumer looking at potential NEW Viper ownership is coming to a close rapidly. The Viper hp freaks don't buy new Vipers every year, much less one every 3 or 4 years. Potential new Viper owners, who are the one's which will keep the Viper sales alive and the production going further - for the most part, these people are not going to be thrilled with so much massive hp that is not controllable. So either DC starts to offer new reasons for the Viper to be purchased, or just change the body style one last time for a couple more years production run and call it quits.

Would it be worth it to only build 200 to 500 Vipers per year to be sold only to the die hard purists (because of no other interested buyers available)? Not likely a cost effective and profitable scenario. Would it be worth it to tool up the plant and make a run of 1,000 for one year, then skip the next - to keep the sales moving along with production - knowing that the vast number of sales are going to be to those purists only, as no one else will be interested? Nope, that scenario has financial losses written all over it too.

When you look at the numbers of Vipers for sale on the net, say on Ebay, Autotrader, DuPont Registry, Cars.com, etc. - how often does a really modded out one show up in the whole lot of them? Hardly none, maybe, MAYBE 1 per 500, 1 per 400 at best. That goes to show, very, very few Viper owners ever did any mods - they are not the hp freaks, but they ARE the group that keeps the sales and production alive! The Viper freaks doing all of the mods that scream for purism, they are not the one's buying new Vipers and keeping an icon viable. Better start thinking about what's going to sell the cars to the group that's buying them, not the very small group that mods them and holds onto them for 4, 5, 6, or in some cases - 10 years.

Chevy can continue to up the anty on the Viper, because it has a main backup "standard version" - a high production / high selling version for its main profits. The Viper has no other backup model to sell. There is no high production/ high selling "standard" Viper with 400 hp at $50,000 selling by the thousands to offset the production costs while keeping the MSRP down, like with the Vettes. Eventually, the horsepower will be at a maximum for the common "new model" buyer (likely now in the 2008 model) to have any interest in purchasing. Then the costs of adding titanium, aluminum, carbon fiber, carbon/ceramic brakes and the like into a big car with a V-10 will push the costs well over $100,000 anyway. End result - dead sales and car lots filled with unsold new Vipers (sound familiar?).

Basically, the Viper is likely a doomed vehicle. Keep thinking hp is the answer. Keep thinking light weight materials / composites are the answer. Keep thinking "seat belts" for crying out loud. That will certainly sell the car for another 10 years.

With the die hard purists thinking, the Viper is a dead horse - just like the Cobra.

Pal, first let us know if you actually ever do come to own a Viper ... cuz it really doesn't sound like you know much about these cars

Second, if the Viper is soon to be a 'dead horse' now, it was dead long before this thread was ever started, and for reasons like ... ah, say, $3.00 gas (just like the Hummer H2 is dead - remember how hot those were just a few years ago). The brand business model never intended for the car to be in high volumes ... and nor was the Ford GT ... these are not cars for everybody

Third, thanks for making my point about mods. Very few people (but more than you estimate) actually make those changes to these cars ... they would much prefer any improvements that I noted to come from the factory.

But again, most importantly, adding a paddle-shifter option is one of those bad business ideas that doesn't really have the market demand to justify it -- very few Viper faithful (or target Viper consumers, not Ferrari consumers) would want it -- Dodge could do much better things for the Viper with its development time and money.

Personally, I have my second Viper on-order ... an '08. I hope they do NOTHING to change the Viper. I only said 'if' Dodge was to do anything, there are better priorities.

If you're looking for a car, I hear the Mitsubishi Lancer has paddle-shifters (and so does their SUV) ... go check it out it might be your kind of 'transportation.'

 

[xanadu]

xanadu - You are now on my hit list next time I have a questions about:
"I can talk about medicine, anatomy, physiology, diseases, physics and ultrasound "

Great mix of knowledge here. We got Tator, and many others, it's endless.

Let me clarify - physics, but as it relates to ultrasound.

Tator's are good from Sonic. I prefer curly fries from Arby's.

 

[xanadu]

Id Rather Eat Worm Than Drive A Automatic

Me too, when speaking about sports cars. But what does an automatic have to do with this post? Paddle shifting sequential MANUAL gearboxes are not automatic transmissions, they are manually shifted (ie, shifted by MAN).

 

[xanadu]

Pal, first let us know if you actually ever do come to own a Viper ... cuz it really doesn't sound like you know much about these cars

I'll be sure to do that!

Second, if the Viper is soon to be a 'dead horse' now, it was dead long before this thread was ever started, and for reasons like ... ah, say, $3.00 gas (just like the Hummer H2 is dead - remember how hot those were just a few years ago). The brand business model never intended for the car to be in high volumes ... and nor was the Ford GT ... these are not cars for everybody.

Your right, they are not for everybody, but if they don't start to appeal to more people, there will not be very many more production years to come. You "purists" are not making the yearly sales - it's the common sports car enthusiast with a little more to spend than just on a standard Vette but yet not the kind of money to spend on a newer Ferrari or Lamborghini. If the purists were making the yearly sales, there would not have been hundreds on show room floors with clean titles and more than a year or two old. There also would not have been a year of NO production at all. Ferrari and Lamborghini sales have done a massive turnaround when comparing the standard manual to the sequential manual paddles. 9 out of every 10 are now sold with sequential gearboxes. It's not a matter of appealing to THOSE customers but more appealing to the customers that respect sports cars in general and have the cash to purchase a new Viper.

Third, thanks for making my point about mods. Very few people (but more than you estimate) actually make those changes to these cars ... they would much prefer any improvements that I noted to come from the factory.

How many different sets of gears are there? What do you want DC to do - offer ever set that can be made? What set might be to your liking may not be the set someone else wants. This is why aftermarket is perfect when it is available. If there was an aftermarket Viper compliant sequential gearbox that was high-end and current gold-standard in quality and performance, I would not have an issue with what DC did - I would just go for the aftermarket, like changing gear sets, differentials, flywheels, pipes, headers, SEAT BELTS, CRUISE CONTROL, or any of the other number of aftermarket options available.

But again, most importantly, adding a paddle-shifter option is one of those bad business ideas that doesn't really have the market demand to justify it -- very few Viper faithful (or target Viper consumers, not Ferrari consumers) would want it -- Dodge could do much better things for the Viper with its development time and money.

Adding a sequential manual transmission would save the Viper from doom. Like I said, the ********* "purists" want to think that the Viper is all about them and being raw and this and that, but the common buyer didn't purchase for all the same reasons that you "fewer" ******** purist (typically modding) guys did. Sales are hurting and it's because the "purists" are not buying - they are modding what they already own. If DC does not try to appeal to more people, no one will be buying enough to justify the production.

 

[Vipermann]

Like I said, the ********* "purists" want to think that the Viper is all about them and being raw and this and that, but the common buyer didn't purchase for all the same reasons that you "fewer" ******** purist (typically modding) guys did. Sales are hurting and it's because the "purists" are not buying - they are modding what they already own. If DC does not try to appeal to more people, no one will be buying enough to justify the production.

You couldn't be more wrong about who and why people buy Vipers. Come to a VOI event -- it will blow you away -- then you might understand. Better yet, get your own Viper, and 'learn' first-hand what the experience is all about -- no other car out there compares to it.

It's funny how this thread statrted about how much interest was out there for a paddle-shifter transmission. It seems from this thread, that except for a few, not much -- certainly not enough to significantly impact sales. Then out of desperation, a supporter of a PS transmisions (but not an owner of a viper), has turned this question into "the Viper is doomed UNLESS it gets a paddle shifter." I don't buy that arguement -- if the Viper goes away, so be it, but a paddle-shifter option wouldn't make a bit of difference -- a) it simply isn't that desirable to the current buyers of this AWESOME machine, and b) if the intent would be to give the Viper more of a Gucci/F1/Ferrari character, that truly would be the death of the Viper ... no thanks, and please take this non-owner perspective elsewhere (maybe a Ferrari forum?)

 

[Vypr Phil]

Do you know what happens at this point quoted below? Is the engine rpm adjusted automatically during a pause of clutch change over? Do the clutches slip? I suspect not much slippage because they are using electro-mechanical clutch actuators, which needs to be described because it is a challenge for variable clamping force, predicting click open and click shut.

Great Question 2000_Black_RT10!

And congratulations! You guessed in the right direction.

No there cannot be any slippage and here is why: you have two gears, simultaneously engaged, the one you are in and also the one you are going to upshift into, the "pre-selected" one. If all of a sudden you had two sets of gears fully engaged, your transmission would lock up and send you into a spin, because it would also lock up your rear wheels instantly.

Since two gear sets are simultaneously engaged, the clutches can only transmit the power from one or the other, but not with any intermittent slippage. The beauty of it is that this system has already been developed to the point where an upshift can be completed in 8 milliseconds. But keep in mind that technically we are not really talking about a shift of gears but a power transfer from one clutch to another since the "pre-selected" gear change has already taken place (computer driven, open clutch) long before the "upshift".

So, the logical conclusion here is the while one clutch is in the "closed" or engaged position, by definition the other one has to be in the "open" or disengaged position.

For more info on advanced transmissions:

AutoZine Technical School - Transmission

Scroll to the bottom of the page and you will find a fairly good description and illustration of this type of transmission in layman's terms.

Hope this helps!

Phil

 

[bluestreak]

There may not be able to be slippage but there can surely be breakage, especially with the kind of hp the viper puts out, and the DSG's are heavy as they also carry an auto function so expect the viper to weigh almost 3600 lbs if not more before you get in it. And they are also expensive to upgrade and repair.


Just some factors to keep in mind.

 

[ViperTony]

The only way Chrysler could appease both sides of this debate would be to offer the so-called nanny tech gizmos as options...Make TC, Paddle Shifting, Butt-cheek Warmers, Latte Machines (under the armrest) as options. Offer a purely-purist version and the bells-whistles version. The R&D, testing, re-tooling of the production facility to accomodate potentially two different powertrain options, etc. would certainly cause the price of the Viper to skyrocket. For a limited production run vehicle, I don't think Chrysler would see this as a good investment especially if say less than half of these potential Vipers were ordered with these options. If these options were to add another 10-15K to the price of the Viper would you still want the options? Would it still be a race car or just another neutered sports car? I'm not against TC or paddle shifting on some cars but they just don't make sense for the Viper, at least not in its current or forthcoming form. When it comes to the Viper I'm a dinosaur and I'm proud of it!

 

[Warfang]

The only way Chrysler could appease both sides of this debate would be to offer the so-called nanny tech gizmos as options...Make TC, Paddle Shifting, Butt-cheek Warmers, Latte Machines (under the armrest) as options. Offer a purely-purist version and the bells-whistles version. The R&D, testing, re-tooling of the production facility to accomodate potentially two different powertrain options, etc. would certainly cause the price of the Viper to skyrocket. For a limited production run vehicle, I don't think Chrysler would see this as a good investment especially if say less than half of these potential Vipers were ordered with these options. If these options were to add another 10-15K to the price of the Viper would you still want the options? Would it still be a race car or just another neutered sports car? I'm not against TC or paddle shifting on some cars but they just don't make sense for the Viper, at least not in its current or forthcoming form. When it comes to the Viper I'm a dinosaur and I'm proud of it!

Those are already available as opshuns... via third party. You take the responsibility, you pay for the fitting and testing. Simple.

 

[xanadu]

You couldn't be more wrong about who and why people buy Vipers. Come to a VOI event -- it will blow you away -- then you might understand. Better yet, get your own Viper, and 'learn' first-hand what the experience is all about -- no other car out there compares to it.

It's funny how this thread statrted about how much interest was out there for a paddle-shifter transmission. It seems from this thread, that except for a few, not much -- certainly not enough to significantly impact sales. Then out of desperation, a supporter of a PS transmisions (but not an owner of a viper), has turned this question into "the Viper is doomed UNLESS it gets a paddle shifter." I don't buy that arguement -- if the Viper goes away, so be it, but a paddle-shifter option wouldn't make a bit of difference -- a) it simply isn't that desirable to the current buyers of this AWESOME machine, and b) if the intent would be to give the Viper more of a Gucci/F1/Ferrari character, that truly would be the death of the Viper ... no thanks, and please take this non-owner perspective elsewhere (maybe a Ferrari forum?)

What makes you so hell bent on saying that I am NOT an owner? Because I do not brag about what I do own or do not own any longer (sold this, sold that, had this, totaled that)? Because I do not put anything in my signature to be boastful about menial things? One of the first things I started working on after becoming a born-again Christian nearly 4 years ago was to learn meekness and humility. Pride goeth before a fall! Don't assume what you don't know.

I give my opinion on what I see in the future of the Viper. If you don't agree, fine, don't agree. But I stand by what I say - the Viper needs something new besides hp to save it. When the Gen III came out, it had more hp, but there sure are a ton of guys here still driving Gen I and II's and care less about Gen III - AND THEY are the ********* Viper owners! Why do you suppose there are so many untitled out there? Why are there so many that are completely unmodded that can be found for sale by the hundreds per "car selling" web site? I have talked to no less than 5 other Viper owners in my area and they don't go to this website, they don't go to VOI and they don't care too. They bought the Viper because it looked cool and that's pretty much it. They, in my opinion, make up the very vast majority of Viper owners - NOT the ********* purists who do modding or even at least read and post on this forum board. For crying out loud, where are all the Viper owners at that YOU say would NOT want the Viper to have a sequential gearbox? Hmmmm? This forum has a handful, A HANDFUL, of opponents that speak out against it. I in contrast say there are thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands who are not ******** owners, but just plain ole folk, like physicians and surgeons in their 50's who wanted something a bit different and they could care less about modding, VOI, or this forum board! There are thousands of Vipers out there, but they are NOT here on this forum board as an opponent of sequential gearboxes, but I do believe that if ALL Viper owners were polled, I firmly believe that those in favor of seeing sequential gearboxes added as a option would be overwhelming. VOI - sure, a nice gathering of Viper owners. But I would guess that less than 30% of all people who have owned a Viper have ever even heard of VOI, much less attended or wanted to attend. Besides, with the animosity that is apparent from this forum board between different generation owners - I don't know why anyone would ever be interested in going.

I will say this about Ferrari owners, since you bring up Ferrari forums and ownership in a sense - at least in their circles there is not any animosity towards other owners and bashing of different models; it is all one big happy family. The one thing I have found about Viper owners is that there are a ton of owners who are basically jerks and cannot even get along with other Viper owners. Gen I guy bashes Gen II guy who bashed on Gen III guy who bashed on Gen I guy who gets a supercharger and bashes back on Gen III guy because he wanted rear cameras and on and on and on. There seems to be little respect, VERY LITTLE respect among owners here on this forum board, but you still think that your the voice of the common owner? Nah, I totally disagree. For every purist owner who is hell bent on what the Viper IS, there are 40 more who bought because it was cool looking and different and as an example - bought one used, on a whim from Brumos Porsche/Mercedes after spotting it on the lot while dropping off the wife's Mercedes for servicing.

Thousands are still needing a title, thousands are available on many websites with less than 2 or 3 thousand miles. Very, very few will have more than 5,000 miles before looking for a new owner. The vast consumer buying Vipers are purchasing them, not likely them and selling them, which is why at any given time you can literally find tons of them for sale all over the internet. How much longer do you suppose that will last? How many more years will DC watch as Vipers sit on the lots and cannot be sold, even to the ******** purist crying for more hp? Seems to me that there are plenty of ********* purists here that are still driving Gen I and II's and even when DC gave them a new higher hp Gen III, they didn't help sales out any, now did they? And what did you get - thousands on the lots and a warehouse full in Michigan.

 

[xanadu]

The R&D, testing, re-tooling of the production facility to accomodate potentially two different powertrain options, etc. would certainly cause the price of the Viper to skyrocket.

Pass the expense off to the consumer who wants the options - isn't that how all vehicles are sold? When you trade in a vehicle, don't you check its value based on the options it came with? When you purchase, don't you pay extra for options you want over and above the standard model?

For a limited production run vehicle, I don't think Chrysler would see this as a good investment especially if say less than half of these potential Vipers were ordered with these options.

If there were no indications that a sequential gearbox could help sales, I would not be for the idea. When I see that the sequential gearbox sales for high end exotics are at approximately 90% - I honestly think it could be a strong sales pitch for the Viper - for which sales are horrible! For that reason I like the idea, I honestly believe it would help sales for the Viper, which in turn saves the brand from doom. Products do not continue to be made if no one is buying them.

I know that there is a difference between the Viper and the exotics. But for the common people who cannot afford a new Ferrari but still want a limited production sports car - for WHATEVER their own personal reason - this would help to peak more attention for the brand. Right now, the supply is massively exceeding the demand. Selling the Viper new is obviously difficult and haunting DC - even to the ********* Viper people!

Also, keep in mind, this is NOT a new concept to DC or its affiliates. Don't just assume that the R&D would be a massive undertaking.

If these options were to add another 10-15K to the price of the Viper would you still want the options?

Not for 15k, but I don't believe it would be that much. I don't think the high end exotics even charge that much (15k) extra for sequential gearboxes. I would pay 10k. Hhhhhh, well, maybe 12k more.

Would it still be a race car or just another neutered sports car? I'm not against TC or paddle shifting on some cars but they just don't make sense for the Viper, at least not in its current or forthcoming form.

Sequential gearboxes - over the last 10 years - are very rapidly becoming the NORM in racing, well, except NASCAR, but then, NASCAR is weird and is about racing family sedans (that are not even sold with manual transmissions) anyway. But the point here is that across the board, in worldwide road racing and also in off road rally racing too (those guys are nuts - as Barney Fife would say), sequentials are used probably in a 10:1 ratio, so which is really more like current racing - the sequential gearbox or the old school manual clutch pedal/stick shift?

Sequential gearboxes are NOT nanny aides or nanny tech as some keep trying to claim - it is simply a different way to manually shift gears. I think it's great that there is an aftermarket for TC if you want it. But TC is not the issue to me here - this discussion is about the MANUAL sequential "paddle shifted" gearbox. Heck, I would even be pleased to see a sequential "stick shifted" gearbox option. There are many race cars using that in the setup - push up for downshift and pull back for upshift.