If A Paddle Shifting Transmission Was Available In 2009, Anyone Buying One?

[Vypr Phil]

There is no point in even discussing the '03-'06 factory shifters. It's already been addressed -- the '08 shifter is said to be DRAMATICALLY lighter and better shifting ... case closed.

Absolutely correct!

They knew improvement was needed and they certainly did not disappoint according to the few who had the privilege of driving the 2008!

And the twin disc clutch makes it even better.


Phil

 

[RTTTTed]

I want a double-clutch transmission! I'd hate to get beat by a 'vette just because they have the FAST tranny. Actually, that's probably why Porshe is doing too much winning on the track. The paddle shifter tranny would probably gain about .3 in ET on the dragstrip. Faster is better.

I love the gear ratio. 20mpg with over 800 rated hp????? Can't beat it. Roe superchargers RULE! Anyway, I hate lifting from the throttle when I have to shift.

I attended an oil/lubricants seminar (I own a gas station) and was told that we should expect that CAFE is going to force all auto's to have either a Variable Constant Velocity Trans (low powered) or a double clutch tranny to meet enviroment specs. I understand that Borgwarner has 1 of the two patents for the double clutch transmissions? Shouldn't be all that expensive since Chysler has a long history with BW.

Ted

 

[xanadu]

I want a double-clutch transmission! I'd hate to get beat by a 'vette just because they have the FAST tranny. Actually, that's probably why Porshe is doing too much winning on the track. The paddle shifter tranny would probably gain about .3 in ET on the dragstrip. Faster is better.

I love the gear ratio. 20mpg with over 800 rated hp????? Can't beat it. Roe superchargers RULE! Anyway, I hate lifting from the throttle when I have to shift.

I attended an oil/lubricants seminar (I own a gas station) and was told that we should expect that CAFE is going to force all auto's to have either a Variable Constant Velocity Trans (low powered) or a double clutch tranny to meet enviroment specs. I understand that Borgwarner has 1 of the two patents for the double clutch transmissions? Shouldn't be all that expensive since Chysler has a long history with BW.

Ted

Ted,

Please refer to post # 92 which has an article about the twin-clutch transmission being produced by Chrysler and Getrag which in part says:

Chrysler Dual-Clutch Transmissions: Automatic Manuals - 79REM & 62TEM


This transmission, whose development started around 1998, is now confirmed for production. The company wrote:

A new automated manual (dual-clutch) transmission – developed in partnership with Getrag [based on many Chrysler patents] – will be used in significant volumes in 2010 model-year vehicles. The transmission is expected to deliver a fuel economy improvement of up to six percent, based on preliminary testing.​

The new transmission is equipped with two independent lay-shaft style gear sets with separate clutches, using manual transmission-based components. During shifts, the next gear is anticipated and pre-selected. Then one clutch is opened while the other is closed, allowing shifting without torque interruption. The result is quicker acceleration and refined shift quality. ​

Unlike Toyota's sequential automatic and most other clutchless models, it had systems to avoid slipping at traffic lights (on hills), to make getting into gear very, very fast, and to make extremely fast, smooth shifts. Unconfirmed reports said it was set to go into Rams when Stuttgart objected to the cost and temporarily ended the project. The transmission will be made in a joint venture with Chrysler's traditional German partner, Getrag, to reduce up-front production costs and to make use of Getrag’s dual-clutch patents.

This is a very exciting system - think of cutting 1-2 seconds off each car's 0-60 times while raising gas mileage, and making the car more pleasant to drive.

Large parts of the dual-clutch system (as it will be referred to in most reports) are used by the Chrysler ME-412, and may show up in Mercedes supercars as well.

 

[Vipermann]

This is a very exciting system - think of cutting 1-2 seconds off each car's 0-60 times while raising gas mileage, and making the car more pleasant to drive.

The new '08 clutch system is, in fact, a great improvement ... but cutting 1-2 seconds off of a car's 0-60 time? ... that must be some good stuff you've got there

 

[bluestreak]

Dual clutches also have to be accomplanied by an automatic, so they increase weight as well. From the standpoint of paddle shifters, I am old fashioned as well, I'll take a stick, but saying I'm "too good for TC" is pride before the fall. Yes it's challenging, but not for the the avg viper owners, and having it as an on/off option wont hurt anybody, despite the old grouches.

 

[Warfang]

Dual clutches also have to be accomplanied by an automatic, so they increase weight as well. From the standpoint of paddle shifters, I am old fashioned as well, I'll take a stick, but saying I'm "too good for TC" is pride before the fall. Yes it's challenging, but not for the the avg viper owners, and having it as an on/off option wont hurt anybody, despite the old grouches.

But how on earth do you shift to 3rd? You can't count past 2, remember?

What a hypocrite... at least the other guys want to go all the way. If you're gonna wuss out, wuss out all the way. Heaven forbid people think you're a shifting purist.

 

[xanadu]

The new '08 clutch system is, in fact, a great improvement ... but cutting 1-2 seconds off of a car's 0-60 time? ... that must be some good stuff you've got there

I didn't write it - I merely copied the article word for word. Take it up with the author.

 

[Vypr Phil]

To you there is no joy. To me it is perfect. There is no mistaking the shift movement. It makes you push it into gear and you feel every millimeter of the linkage it uses to do it. It sends the message to the driver to take control. If I wanted some finger-light emasculating shift I could have purchased ANY other car.

Interesting observation Chuck!

Actually, I am not looking for a “finger light, emasculating shift" as you put it. As you mentioned, we could all buy Honda Civics for that!

With the serious torque load the transmission has to handle this would by no means be a reasonable request or wish. This is probably why they increased the width of the gears on the 2008’s.

With the short throw, the shifting action is much crisper; my only desire is for it to be more precise. I can upshift without using the clutch by putting the shift lever in neutral while I get of the gas, gently lean it against the synchro for a split second and then firmly engage the gear and step back on the gas. Same for downshifting but adding a healthy dose of throttle before leaning against the synchro. I learned this a long time ago driving military trucks equipped with unsynchronized gear boxes in the Alps. You do not want to miss a shift there, believe me.

Question for you: do you have experience or a recommendation with firmer motor and transmission mounts, such as the ones developed and sold by Woodhouse? Some folks here say that it makes a sizeable difference in precision of shifting action. What are your thoughts?

Phil

 

[Disturbed]

No paddle shifter here. I don't have issue shifting this "old" & "Clunky" T-56. Maybe if some of you girly-men lifted more than a bag of chips and a can of beer, you could shift better.

Got to love Ruckdr, The man can still shift better than most 30 y/o's.

 

[bluestreak]

But how on earth do you shift to 3rd? You can't count past 2, remember?

What a hypocrite... at least the other guys want to go all the way. If you're gonna wuss out, wuss out all the way. Heaven forbid people think you're a shifting purist.

So I guess when they added ABS, they shoulda added auto pilot to then huh?

 

[Warfang]

So I guess when they added ABS, they shoulda added auto pilot to then huh?

According to your logic... yes. A computer at the helm calculating all the turns can obviously get better times on a track than a mere human... much like how ABS and TC works, no?

 

[Warfang]

BTW... just because I don't agree with some of you on nannytech, doesn't mean I don't like ya.

If you like fast cars and know that a Viper isn't a kit car, we are friends on some level.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Question for you: do you have experience or a recommendation with firmer motor and transmission mounts, such as the ones developed and sold by Woodhouse? Some folks here say that it makes a sizeable difference in precision of shifting action. What are your thoughts?

I saw that thread a while back. It would be nice to try out the mounts but I have a limited budget. I had a broken tranny mount and replaced it with stock. I really don't have any shift problems on road courses since I don't bang the gears on road like one would do on a dragstrip.

Drag racing produces more shift issues because split-second shifting is such a bigger deal. On a road course not so much so if everyone is running the same style shifter.

 

[HARDVIPER]

Im thinking of getting a Lambo with the paddle shift, anyone have input on that?

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Im thinking of getting a Lambo with the paddle shift, anyone have input on that?

Have fun. Enjoy. Got no problem with anybody buying a car with paddles, TC, ABS, etc.

And be careful with the TC, it won't always save you from spinning out. Which begs the question, "well what good is it then?"

 

[Vypr Phil]

I saw that thread a while back. It would be nice to try out the mounts but I have a limited budget. I had a broken tranny mount and replaced it with stock. I really don't have any shift problems on road courses since I don't bang the gears on road like one would do on a dragstrip.

Drag racing produces more shift issues because split-second shifting is such a bigger deal. On a road course not so much so if everyone is running the same style shifter.

Thanks for your answer Chuck!

I will do the mount replacement before the next series of West Coast Viper Days events early next year and will let you all know if and how much of an improvement in shifting action precision I can detect whith the harder (higher durometer rating) mounts.

Phil

 

[bluestreak]

Have fun. Enjoy. Got no problem with anybody buying a car with paddles, TC, ABS, etc.

And be careful with the TC, it won't always save you from spinning out. Which begs the question, "well what good is it then?"

Wont always is still a lot more than never. That is common sense.

 

[Warfang]

Wont always is still a lot more than never. That is common sense.

Um... you won't always lose in Russian Roulette either. No common sense playing that.

Inconsistency is the bane of perfection. A good driver knows where the limit is. With tc... you never really know for sure. It's impossible to predict what a computer is calculating a million times a second. Slower and consistent will beat out faster yet inconsistent more times than not.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Wont always is still a lot more than never. That is common sense.

Tell that to all the TC equiped exotics involved in single car wrecks.

Of which there has been a rash of in the past five years.

 

[dave6666]

This is starting to rival the Vipair debate.

A quick review of the "paddle" debate:

- - - Those that want them call those that don't Dinosaurs.

- - - Those that don't want them call those that do... Uh... Meow...

I'll stick with Dinosaur.

 

[xanadu]

Um... you won't always lose in Russian Roulette either. No common sense playing that.

Inconsistency is the bane of perfection. A good driver knows where the limit is. With tc... you never really know for sure. It's impossible to predict what a computer is calculating a million times a second. Slower and consistent will beat out faster yet inconsistent more times than not.

And that's why you'll see TC in every single F1 car raced today, right? I mean, they certainly are considered - by waaaaay far - to be the very best drivers in the world, and the cars are considered by far the most technologically advanced in the world, so why would they want, as opposed to "not need" - TC?

TC makes for safer driving and faster lap times through quicker acceleration out of corners - and in the end I think I'd rather have something that was going to save my butt and my car 98 times out of 100 than loose it and destroy my ride. All you gung-** macho guys who want to call TC a nanny aide, go right ahead - you would not be hurting my (proponent of defeatable TC) feelings whatsoever.

As a side note - oddly enough, the post was actually about "paddle shifting" manual sequential gearboxes and some who want to attack that also call it a "nanny aide", which is nothing of the sort. It is simply an alternative style to manually shift the gears. Paddle shifting gearboxes are now the "across-the-board" racing norm - probably by 90% as compared to full clutch pedal/stick shift manuals.

TC systems are also helping to put drivers on the podium and if I were a truly competitive road racing driver (obviously if your Viper is only good for straight line drag racing then we have a whole different issue) whose income depended on my results and racing in a series which allowed TC - you better believe I would want it and anything else that would help me be the fastest driver and place me on the top step at the end - because in the end, people remember the guy who won, not the guy who had the most "macho old school" manual everything car.

Ask anyone who only follows racing "half-butt" - "which team has been dominating ALMS and LMP racing worldwide?" and he/she will tell you Audi. Then ask "why do you think they dominate" and they will say, "Because they are so fast". You will NEVER see any other LMP1 or LMP2 teams crying because Audi has TC, or manual "paddle shifted" gearboxes to help them achieve their dominance - mainly because they ALL (teams) use it. You don't see other teams NOT using it and pounding their chests like apes and saying, "Yeah, well, we are REAL men, we are MANLY men and you limp wristed pansies are driving, err, winning - with your NANNY AIDES!!!" No, what you see is teams using some logic and common sense, putting aside any childish whims and immature insecurities for whatever is going to make their car faster, more consistent lap after lap and put their drivers on the podium - because in the end, that's all that matters, and it's the guy/team spraying the champagne who has the biggest grin of them all!

Oh, btw, here's something from Audi Racing -

2007 Quote: ". . . . the Audi R10 TDI has traction control which is of paramount importance on the smooth tarmac at Mid Ohio."


Quotes after qualifying at 2006 Mid-Ohio (Audi R8 - LMP1)

Dave Maraj (Team Director, Team Audi Sport North America): "I hope that our . . . racecraft . . . will allow us to claim another podium. Unfortunately . . . the Audi R8 does not have traction control whereas the Porsche does which is another problem for us here.”

Allan McNish (Audi R8 #2): "P2 on the grid is much better than what we’d expected – I didn’t think I could achieve that kind of time with the poor grip issues . . ."

Dindo Capello (Audi R8 #2): "We have been surprised in qualifying as we’d struggled a little with low grip. Allan did a fantastic job to get so close to the Porsche If we finish on the podium then that would be a good result."

Keep in mind - the Porsche is an LMP2 car, not LMP1 like the Audi R8. Audi used the older R8 in a few of the early 2006 races, and you can see there was worry because the R8 did not have any traction control like the succeeding Audi R10 (or LMP2 Porsche RS Spyders). Oh, the dominating LMP1 Audi's - lacking TC for this race - lost to BOTH of the LMP2 Porsche RS Spyders with traction control.

 

[bluestreak]

Um... you won't always lose in Russian Roulette either. No common sense playing that.

Inconsistency is the bane of perfection. A good driver knows where the limit is. With tc... you never really know for sure. It's impossible to predict what a computer is calculating a million times a second. Slower and consistent will beat out faster yet inconsistent more times than not.

Inconsistensy? You takea few isolated conditions with no credible evidence that TC failed and say it's inconsistent, without even considering all the wrecks it's prevented??? Not to mention it's not fool proof, if you want to drive 150 and take a 90* turn, it cant help you much, whose fault it that?


This is rediculous, you guys are trying any way you can to come up with a decent arguement, and are failing miserably.

Tell that to all the TC equiped exotics involved in single car wrecks.

Of which there has been a rash of in the past five years.

Most of those havent been because of TC failing, the driving is just THAT bad, be it drunk or snow/rain etc. Which is why TC is needed, there are too mant people that cant handle as much power as they think. Stop being selfish.

 

[xanadu]

On a road course not so much so if everyone is running the same style shifter.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!! These days, in PROFESSIONAL racing where prize money is big and winning means providing income for your family, 90% plus are using sequential "paddle shifted" gearboxes! You won't find a F1 car, or an ALMS LMP1 / LMP2 car, or a IRL car, or Indy car, or Daytona Prototype car, or any more than 10% of all GT1 and GT2 cars - racing with an old fashioned stick & clutch pedal manual transmission. Why? Because it's about being competitive with the others and getting on the podium where money can feed the kids at home (and for the factory backed teams - sell more cars on Monday afternoon).

Hey, if all you do is track a car on weekends for fun, or drive a car in a straight line fast for a few seconds - there may be no reason for you wanting more technology. But for some, even if it's only for track day joys - the addition of TC and super-fast, current "gold standard" paddle shifting gearbox would be very sweet - and really, I wouldn't give a flip what you "manly" men without such options called me. As an outspoken born-again Christian, I've been called everything - and it all means nuthin' to me!

MySpace.com - Scott - 39 - Male - JACKSONVILLE, Florida - www.myspace.com/fullbug13

 

[xanadu]

Tell that to all the TC equiped exotics involved in single car wrecks.

Of which there has been a rash of in the past five years.

You can't blame wrecks on TC or the lack thereof. That's why automakers which provide TC have disclaimers!

I think it has a lot more to do with the driver and driving than the car!

Oh, and maybe because there are thousands upon thousands more exotics WITH TC than the whole number of Vipers without it - but then again, how many Vipers get totaled every year too! Hmmmm.

 

[Warfang]

Inconsistensy? You takea few isolated conditions with no credible evidence that TC failed and say it's inconsistent, without even considering all the wrecks it's prevented??? Not to mention it's not fool proof, if you want to drive 150 and take a 90* turn, it cant help you much, whose fault it that?


This is rediculous, you guys are trying any way you can to come up with a decent arguement, and are failing miserably.




Most of those havent been because of TC failing, the driving is just THAT bad, be it drunk or snow/rain etc. Which is why TC is needed, there are too mant people that cant handle as much power as they think. Stop being selfish.

Nah... selfish is when you think that your opinions are the only ones that matter, and that you're special enough to warrant a whole brand be changed for your beliefs. But then again, you must must not be selfish because you give us Viper owners so much of your time, considering you don't have one. You must be one awesome fella. You own your dream car and feel destined to make our car... your car.

I never thought of it that way. You're such the humanitarian.

btw... can you PROVE that driving was THAT bad? I don't think so. I'd be willing to bet those people don't think their driving was bad. But I'm sure if it ever happened to you, you're humble enough to admit you're a bad driver.

 

[Vipermann]

This is rediculous, you guys are trying any way you can to come up with a decent arguement, and are failing miserably.

NO NO NO.

The pro-PS crowd here just doesn't get it. Stop drinking the koolaid.

Everything costs money. Nothing is free.

If you want a PS transmission, TC, etc., just like Porsches and Ferraris, go ahead and pay Porsche and Ferrari prices.

We're lucky to have this 600HP monster for the amazing value that it can be had for now. You guys would kill it -- I mean KILL it -- by adding all of these expensive tech-oriented options. No thanks -- here in the real world, we know that nothing is free. Any money to be invested can be better invested to make the Viper better in other ways (that would also make a bigger difference in selling more cars, which PS would not).

 

[Warfang]

And that's why you'll see TC in every single F1 car raced today, right? I mean, they certainly are considered - by waaaaay far - to be the very best drivers in the world, and the cars are considered by far the most technologically advanced in the world, so why would they want, as opposed to "not need" - TC?

TC makes for safer driving and faster lap times through quicker acceleration out of corners - and in the end I think I'd rather have something that was going to save my butt and my car 98 times out of 100 than loose it and destroy my ride. All you gung-** macho guys who want to call TC a nanny aide, go right ahead - you would not be hurting my (proponent of defeatable TC) feelings whatsoever.

As a side note - oddly enough, the post was actually about "paddle shifting" manual sequential gearboxes and some who want to attack that also call it a "nanny aide", which is nothing of the sort. It is simply an alternative style to manually shift the gears. Paddle shifting gearboxes are now the "across-the-board" racing norm - probably by 90% as compared to full clutch pedal/stick shift manuals.

TC systems are also helping to put drivers on the podium and if I were a truly competitive road racing driver (obviously if your Viper is only good for straight line drag racing then we have a whole different issue) whose income depended on my results and racing in a series which allowed TC - you better believe I would want it and anything else that would help me be the fastest driver and place me on the top step at the end - because in the end, people remember the guy who won, not the guy who had the most "macho old school" manual everything car.

Ask anyone who only follows racing "half-butt" - "which team has been dominating ALMS and LMP racing worldwide?" and he/she will tell you Audi. Then ask "why do you think they dominate" and they will say, "Because they are so fast". You will NEVER see any other LMP1 or LMP2 teams crying because Audi has TC, or manual "paddle shifted" gearboxes to help them achieve their dominance - mainly because they ALL (teams) use it. You don't see other teams NOT using it and pounding their chests like apes and saying, "Yeah, well, we are REAL men, we are MANLY men and you limp wristed pansies are driving, err, winning - with your NANNY AIDES!!!" No, what you see is teams using some logic and common sense, putting aside any childish whims and immature insecurities for whatever is going to make their car faster, more consistent lap after lap and put their drivers on the podium - because in the end, that's all that matters, and it's the guy/team spraying the champagne who has the biggest grin of them all!

Oh, btw, here's something from Audi Racing -

2007 Quote: ". . . . the Audi R10 TDI has traction control which is of paramount importance on the smooth tarmac at Mid Ohio."


Quotes after qualifying at 2006 Mid-Ohio (Audi R8 - LMP1)

Dave Maraj (Team Director, Team Audi Sport North America): "I hope that our . . . racecraft . . . will allow us to claim another podium. Unfortunately . . . the Audi R8 does not have traction control whereas the Porsche does which is another problem for us here.”

Allan McNish (Audi R8 #2): "P2 on the grid is much better than what we’d expected – I didn’t think I could achieve that kind of time with the poor grip issues . . ."

Dindo Capello (Audi R8 #2): "We have been surprised in qualifying as we’d struggled a little with low grip. Allan did a fantastic job to get so close to the Porsche If we finish on the podium then that would be a good result."

Keep in mind - the Porsche is an LMP2 car, not LMP1 like the Audi R8. Audi used the older R8 in a few of the early 2006 races, and you can see there was worry because the R8 did not have any traction control like the succeeding Audi R10 (or LMP2 Porsche RS Spyders). Oh, the dominating LMP1 Audi's - lacking TC for this race - lost to BOTH of the LMP2 Porsche RS Spyders with traction control.

HAHAHHA.... these are the same people that when the Viper hands them their @$$ on a platter, they demand more restrictions on the Viper. This is followed by cursing to the effect that they can't believe some AMURICAN neanderthal retro backwards no finess car that just has a big engine cleaned their clock.

I remember reading something about when PMUM was kicking serious @$$, all they can do was accuse him of cheating. Fact is, when you have a more basic car, it requires you to be a better driver. This is how and why the Viper has a bad@$$ reputation. The whiners will never get that. They want the reputation without the work involved.

It means more, when you DO more... with less. Got it?

 

[bluestreak]

NO NO NO.

The pro-PS crowd here just doesn't get it. Stop drinking the koolaid.

Everything costs money. Nothing is free.

If you want a PS transmission, TC, etc., just like Porsches and Ferraris, go ahead and pay Porsche and Ferrari prices.

We're lucky to have this 600HP monster for the amazing value that it can be had for now. You guys would kill it -- I mean KILL it -- by adding all of this expensive tech-oriented options. No thanks -- here in the real world, we know that nothing is free. Any money to be invested can be better invested to make the Viper better in other ways (that would also make a bigger difference in selling more cars, which PS would not).

I cant describe how rediculous that sounds. You dont want the car to change because of a stigma, I want the car to change because it may save people's lives (or cars, for which some is one in the same), yet I'm being selfish??

you have some nerve.

Nah... selfish is when you think that your opinions are the only ones that matter, and that you're special enough to warrant a whole brand be changed for your beliefs. But then again, you must must not be selfish because you give us Viper owners so much of your time, considering you don't have one. You must be one awesome fella. You own your dream car and feel destined to make our car... your car.

I never thought of it that way. You're such the humanitarian.

btw... can you PROVE that driving was THAT bad? I don't think so. I'd be willing to bet those people don't think their driving was bad. But I'm sure if it ever happened to you, you're humble enough to admit you're a bad driver.

LOL I'm talking about TC only. DC just completely redid the motor, and several other facets of the car, and is selling the car FOR LESS!!!!!!!! Um, I think they can add TC and do the same. PS are different but that's why they have options that YOU pay for.

 

[xanadu]

This is rediculous, you guys are trying any way you can to come up with a decent arguement, and are failing miserably.

EXACTLY!

Most of those havent been because of TC failing, the driving is just THAT bad, be it drunk or snow/rain etc. Which is why TC is needed, there are too mant people that cant handle as much power as they think. Stop being selfish.

EXACTLY! EXACTLY! EXACTLY! EXACTLY! EXACTLY! EXACTLY! EXACTLY! EXACTLY! EXACTLY!

Stop being selfish and let some RACE INSPIRED technology be accepted as an OPTION (op-shun)! We as a group of proponents are not asking for 2 more seats, or hatchbacks with nets to hold the groceries from sliding around, or auto parking, or heads up display or FULL AUTOMATICS for crying out loud!!! A sequential gearbox is NOT an automatic (some systems can be selected to be full automatic if desired - but that's NOT what some of us are wanting) transmission! We are talking about RACE INSPIRED ENHANCEMENTS AS AN OPTION ONLY!!!

If anything, you group of die-hard "Viper is a street legal race car", old-school, no-race-inspired-technology purists should be ripping out your stereos, a/c's, carpeting, etc - but I bet 99% of you are not! Hypocrites!

 

[Warfang]

You can't blame wrecks on TC or the lack thereof. That's why automakers which provide TC have disclaimers!

I think it has a lot more to do with the driver and driving than the car!

Oh, and maybe because there are thousands upon thousands more exotics WITH TC than the whole number of Vipers without it - but then again, how many Vipers get totaled every year too! Hmmmm.

Let em be totalled. You buy a Viper knowing the reputation it has, and if you don't respect it, you deserve to lose it. It's what makes the Viper such an outrageous car... yes, it's dangerous and you're on your own to save your @$$. I CAN'T BELIEVE A CAR COMPANY WOULD STILL BUILD A CAR LIKE THIS IN THE AGE OF STUPIDISM AND LAWSUITS. That's the point.

There's reward in taming this wild beast. Some people prefer to ride on fast, calm, sedate thoroughbreds, and that's ok. Just don't ride in on "My Little Pony" and tell me it's the Black Stallion. I know the difference... do you?