If A Paddle Shifting Transmission Was Available In 2009, Anyone Buying One?

[Vipermann]

Let me sum up a key objection to even talking about paddle shifting:

Dodge should have MUCH bigger priorities for the Viper. It's a waste of time to even talk about it as much as this thread indicates.

The Viper's performance is not currently limited by lack of a paddle-shifter. Traction, weight, handling, gearing ... those should be the priority, if ANY more money is to be invested by Dodge. None of us need a Viper that is no longer at the front of the performance pack, but offers a paddle-shifter. Think about it.

Please kill this thread -- let it die -- no more posts please (many of us are tired of looking at it on this board).

 

[AviP]

Please kill this thread -- let it die -- no more posts please (many of us are tired of looking at it on this board).

Blame DodgeViper01, he's a Ferrari fascist.

 

[Andrew/USPWR]

Had a friend take me for a ride in his Ferrari 360 vert, with paddle shifters.
I wouldn't own it.

 

[Warfang]

Warfang, why do you make me think that you must be the penultimate technophobe? I guess a basic Cobra kit car with Viper V10 power would be the ultimate thrill for you, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Phil

You don't know a thing about me. Unless you're a rocket scientist, I direct more technology day to day than you will in your lifetime.

If Madonna is your sole inspiration for reinvention, then you need to say no more. If we took a dog and named it the same as your wife or gf, will you chalk it up as reinvention? Getting a sex change is reinvention too, but I doubt you'll be in line for it anytime soon.

This is just silly. If someone slapped a 15000HP engine on **** and called it a Viper, you'll still buy it because has the name Viper? At some point, you realize there's more to a product than it's spelled-out name. So Dodge takes the Caliber and shoves a Viper engine into it's rear compartment and introduces it as the mid engine Viper... new and improved. It'll even have paddle shifters and selectable tc. Will that work for you, oh master of all things tech?

Sure, if Dodge makes a ****/tech/cheap Viper, lot of people might buy it, but most of the original people that bought Vipers for what it is today will probably not. Dodge has to decide if it wants to dabble in Mustang/Corvette demographics at the risk of losing the current one. The money is there, so it's a possibility. Then I'll take my money elsewhere. God bless America.

 

[dave6666]

You don't know a thing about me. Unless you're a rocket scientist, I direct more technology day to day than you will in your lifetime.

If Madonna is your sole inspiration for reinvention, then you need to say no more. If we took a dog and named it the same as your wife or gf, will you chalk it up as reinvention? Getting a sex change is reinvention too, but I doubt you'll be in line for it anytime soon.

This is just silly. If someone slapped a 15000HP engine on **** and called it a Viper, you'll still buy it because has the name Viper? At some point, you realize there's more to a product than it's spelled-out name. So Dodge takes the Caliber and shoves a Viper engine into it's rear compartment and introduces it as the mid engine Viper... new and improved. It'll even have paddle shifters and selectable tc. Will that work for you, oh master of all things tech?

Sure, if Dodge makes a ****/tech/cheap Viper, lot of people might buy it, but most of the original people that bought Vipers for what it is today will probably not. Dodge has to decide if it wants to dabble in Mustang/Corvette demographics at the risk of losing the current one. The money is there, so it's a possibility. Then I'll take my money elsewhere. God bless America.

Ka-CHING!

Warfang is the winner.

This thread is officially OVER.

Great.

Good job Warfang.

Next subject?

 

[AviP]

Ka-CHING!

Warfang is the winner.

This thread is officially OVER.

Great.

Good job Warfang.

Next subject?

The next subject is manettino.

Just like in Formula 1, the F430 driver can change the set-up of his car using the innovative selector set on the steering wheel. The manettino is a rotary switch that has been adopted directly from racing, where the driver's total commitment to driving requires maximum efficiency and speed in controlling the car's various functions. This switch quickly and simply controls the electronics governing suspension settings, the CST stability and traction control, E-Diff and the change speed of the F1 transmission, as well as the integration between each of these individual functions.

 

[Vypr Phil]

You are right, God Bless America!

You don't know a thing about me. Unless you're a rocket scientist, I direct more technology day to day than you will in your lifetime.

If Madonna is your sole inspiration for reinvention, then you need to say no more. If we took a dog and named it the same as your wife or gf, will you chalk it up as reinvention? Getting a sex change is reinvention too, but I doubt you'll be in line for it anytime soon.

This is just silly. If someone slapped a 15000HP engine on **** and called it a Viper, you'll still buy it because has the name Viper? At some point, you realize there's more to a product than it's spelled-out name. So Dodge takes the Caliber and shoves a Viper engine into it's rear compartment and introduces it as the mid engine Viper... new and improved. It'll even have paddle shifters and selectable tc. Will that work for you, oh master of all things tech?

Sure, if Dodge makes a ****/tech/cheap Viper, lot of people might buy it, but most of the original people that bought Vipers for what it is today will probably not. Dodge has to decide if it wants to dabble in Mustang/Corvette demographics at the risk of losing the current one. The money is there, so it's a possibility. Then I'll take my money elsewhere. God bless America.

 

[xanadu]

. . . I would prefer to see a Viper with more options lending a bit more convenience to the average buyer (not that any of us are average, but this is another issue and could be a fascinating thread in its own right). This way, people could customize the car to their liking and IMHO I think this would be much better then no Viper production at all.

Yep. Well said.

Remember that they built it to appeal to the “******** Viper Owner” but did not sell enough of them, leading to a one year (2007) production hiatus. Not Good! Even worse, there are still quite a number of unsold 05 & 06 out there (I counted about 10 in the greater Los Angeles area alone last week-end). Guess many folks turned their back on the Viper and went the ZO6 route instead. Just a fact, don’t tell me in anger now to go join “that crowd” as I have absolutely no intention to purchase a “Crap-Au-Lait-Z0-Whatever”.

Again, well very spoken and I totally agree.

The twin-clutch gearbox is very impressive.

Thanks for your time in the explanation of the different gearboxes.

Ferrari's gearbox (as others) have come a long way with each new model. The 355 can be considered horrible compared to the 360, which is a dog compared to the 360 Challenge Stradale, which lacks compared to the 430, and now the 430 is in slight pain compared to the 430 Scuderia's new "Super-Fast" gearbox.

The ability to shift faster and keep the power full on is (or should be) a paramount issue for any sports car driver. But at the same time, having the fun and pleasure of being able to make our own shifts is in itself a major issue too - which only proves how great a current "gold-standard", top-of-the-line sequential gearbox could be in a sports car.

All we proponents of a sequential gearbox are saying, as a collective group I believe, is having an "option" for a high end system such as the dual-clutch sequential . Chrysler has already began producing a dual-clutch transmission, as I showed through an article in my previous post.

I know, I know, all the opponents - as a collective group - of said sequential gearbox are saying is, "no way".

Sad that some are willing to burn down the factory and kill the whole car's future instead of offering a sports-car oriented "option" that would likely increase the performance as well as the (dead) sales. How selfish can one be?

 

[xanadu]

Traction, weight, handling, gearing ... those should be the priority, if ANY more money is to be invested by Dodge.

Yeah, I guess faster shifting and full "power on" through gear changes should NOT be considered as very important issues when building a sports car.

 

[dave6666]

ArrrrrrrRRRRRRRRRRggggggggGGGGGGGGGGGGgggggggggggg.

 

[mike & juli]

ArrrrrrrRRRRRRRRRRggggggggGGGGGGGGGGGGgggggggggggg.

DITTO~~~Well, Dave, at least your post count IS growing steadily!! ~juli

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Madonna reinvented herself? When?

 

[dave6666]

Madonna reinvented herself? When?

Heard she just signed a $120M music contract somewhere. Is that a reinvention?

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Heard she just signed a $120M music contract somewhere. Is that a reinvention?

But she is still the obnoxious ***** she always was isn't she?

 

[dave6666]

But she is still the obnoxious ***** she always was isn't she?

I would. Wouldn't you?

I mean, just drape an African flag over her and think of orphan rescue or something. So she's not noble. Big deal. Fake it.

Or is it the Vietnamese flag...

 

[Vypr Phil]

Again, well very spoken and I totally agree.

The twin-clutch gearbox is very impressive.

Thanks for your time in the explanation of the different gearboxes.

Ferrari's gearbox (as others) have come a long way with each new model. The 355 can be considered horrible compared to the 360, which is a dog compared to the 360 Challenge Stradale, which lacks compared to the 430, and now the 430 is in slight pain compared to the 430 Scuderia's new "Super-Fast" gearbox.

The ability to shift faster and keep the power full on is (or should be) a paramount issue for any sports car driver. But at the same time, having the fun and pleasure of being able to make our own shifts is in itself a major issue too - which only proves how great a current "gold-standard", top-of-the-line sequential gearbox could be in a sports car.

All we proponents of a sequential gearbox are saying, as a collective group I believe, is having an "option" for a high end system such as the dual-clutch sequential . Chrysler has already began producing a dual-clutch transmission, as I showed through an article in my previous post.

I know, I know, all the opponents - as a collective group - of said sequential gearbox are saying is, "no way".

Sad that some are willing to burn down the factory and kill the whole car's future instead of offering a sports-car oriented "option" that would likely increase the performance as well as the (dead) sales. How selfish can one be?

Xanadu, thanks for your comments!

Great post (#92) in this thread!

Well researched, accurate and to the point.

Even better (#158, posted above). Twin-clutch transmissions will become very popular in the near future as they are very smooth since you are not really shifting gear but switching from an active gear to a pre-selected gear, only transitioning from one clutch to the other, which on upshift can be done in 8 milliseconds, with virtually uninterrupted power delivery.

With a few exceptions, the true sequential transmissions are generally only intended and engineered for racing application on automobiles, although they are fairly standard equipment on motorcycles.

Phil

 

[Vypr Phil]

Let me sum up a key objection to even talking about paddle shifting:

Dodge should have MUCH bigger priorities for the Viper. It's a waste of time to even talk about it as much as this thread indicates.

The Viper's performance is not currently limited by lack of a paddle-shifter. Traction, weight, handling, gearing ... those should be the priority, if ANY more money is to be invested by Dodge. None of us need a Viper that is no longer at the front of the performance pack, but offers a paddle-shifter. Think about it.

Please kill this thread -- let it die -- no more posts please (many of us are tired of looking at it on this board).

Viperman,

Agree with you on all points: handling, weight, traction and my biggest pet peeve, gearing should all be front burner issues.

Handling: although the Viper pulls impressive lateral acceleration, the transition phase from braking to steering is not well balanced on turn entry.

Weight: affects handling and performance. As Colin Chapman, the illustrious Lotus Motor Company founder said: remove weight and add lightness. He was the master of light weight automobile engineering and his cars all enjoyed world class handling.

Traction: I know, the “purists” will gripe again about “no nannies”, no traction control but compared to other high output sports cars with TC, the Viper simply lags behind. Think of TC as ABS in reverse; remember how world class the Viper’s brake became once ABS was installed. For a long time the only car with a 60 – 0 stopping distance less than 100ft. TC would be equally beneficial to traction as ABS has been to brakes, but don’t tell this to the “purists”. For fear of generating heart attacks among “purists”, I will not talk about AWD today.

Gearing: We are paying a triple penalty for bad gear choices: first a $3,000.00 gas guzzler tax; second, the unpleasant 1-4 skip shift and last the ridiculously tall 5th and 6th gear ratios. Unfortunately, all these issues are driven by CAFE standard compliance.

As this thread’s title suggest, this was more of a hypothetical question than a market research tool. However, do not be surprised if in a future production year we will see electro-hydraulic shifting actuator equipped transmissions. After all, the throttle-by-wire will even allow for a brief throttle blipping on downshifts, with a modicum of additional programming. This may be one of the reasons they went to throttle-by-wire on the 2008 model.

As an aside, I really don’t understand why so many people are hung up on this transmission issue. The transmission is no joy to shift with the factory shift lever. To me it felt like a heavy-duty truck transmission. Installing the short throw shifter made a big difference, but even so it could be a lot more precise and smooth.

With the budget available, the SRT engineering team did a fantastic job on the 2008, concentrating on improvements where they made the biggest difference with the previous edition. Could the car be better? You bet, but it would take a lot more money. I for one am very grateful to see 2008’s coming out soon.

Phil

 

[dave6666]

My God. This thread has taken a technical direction AGAIN.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

The transmission is no joy to shift with the factory shift lever.

To you there is no joy. To me it is perfect. There is no mistaking the shift movement. It makes you push it into gear and you feel every millimeter of the linkage it uses to do it. It sends the message to the driver to take control. If I wanted some finger-light emasculating shift I could have purchased ANY other car.

 

[Vipermann]

There is no point in even discussing the '03-'06 factory shifters. It's already been addressed -- the '08 shifter is said to be DRAMATICALLY lighter and better shifting ... case closed.

 

[dave6666]

There is no point in even discussing the '03-'06 factory shifters. It's already been addressed -- the '08 shifter is said to be DRAMATICALLY lighter and better shifting ... case closed.

Whoopee!

Now we can get back to paddle shifters.

 

[mike & juli]

Whoopee!

Now we can get back to paddle shifters.

Thought we killed that one AGAIN!!! ~juli

 

[xanadu]

Viperman,

Agree with you on all points: handling, weight, traction and my biggest pet peeve, gearing should all be front burner issues.

Handling: although the Viper pulls impressive lateral acceleration, the transition phase from braking to steering is not well balanced on turn entry.

Weight: affects handling and performance. As Colin Chapman, the illustrious Lotus Motor Company founder said: remove weight and add lightness. He was the master of light weight automobile engineering and his cars all enjoyed world class handling.

Traction: I know, the “purists” will gripe again about “no nannies”, no traction control but compared to other high output sports cars with TC, the Viper simply lags behind. Think of TC as ABS in reverse; remember how world class the Viper’s brake became once ABS was installed. For a long time the only car with a 60 – 0 stopping distance less than 100ft. TC would be equally beneficial to traction as ABS has been to brakes, but don’t tell this to the “purists”. For fear of generating heart attacks among “purists”, I will not talk about AWD today.

Gearing: We are paying a triple penalty for bad gear choices: first a $3,000.00 gas guzzler tax; second, the unpleasant 1-4 skip shift and last the ridiculously tall 5th and 6th gear ratios. Unfortunately, all these issues are driven by CAFE standard compliance.

As this thread’s title suggest, this was more of a hypothetical question than a market research tool. However, do not be surprised if in a future production year we will see electro-hydraulic shifting actuator equipped transmissions. After all, the throttle-by-wire will even allow for a brief throttle blipping on downshifts, with a modicum of additional programming. This may be one of the reasons they went to throttle-by-wire on the 2008 model.

As an aside, I really don’t understand why so many people are hung up on this transmission issue. The transmission is no joy to shift with the factory shift lever. To me it felt like a heavy-duty truck transmission. Installing the short throw shifter made a big difference, but even so it could be a lot more precise and smooth.

With the budget available, the SRT engineering team did a fantastic job on the 2008, concentrating on improvements where they made the biggest difference with the previous edition. Could the car be better? You bet, but it would take a lot more money. I for one am very grateful to see 2008’s coming out soon.

Phil

Well written again Phil. Good stuff. I like your analogy about ABS and TC - "think of TC as ABS in reverse".

Some people are so hung up on the transmission issue. What's interesting -and I've said this in posts long time ago - is that when Ferrari (and probably others too, but being Tifosi I know Ferrari history better than others) first introduced a sequential gearbox with paddle shifting, the Ferrari purists - and you can imagine just how pure THEY are - went nuts! They were infuriated that the "sports car" in Ferrari was being watered down, demoted or reduced from its "sporting" heritage. Then, those die hard Tifosi purists, I mean the REAL DRIVING OWNERS, started to see the light from Ferrari. They suddenly got the picture. Reality began to make sense. Before you knew it, the die hard Tifosi owners were switching over from true manual to paddle shifting F1 gearboxes. Sales began to increase, which is kind of an important thing, ya know? Before you knew it, some other high end exotic or "sporting" auto makers were jumping on the same wagon - it was about saving companies through increased sales, offering increased performance, and giving the "sports car" the same types of technology used in road racing - from F1 to Le Mans/ALMS LMP1, LMP2, GT1 and GT2, to Rally racing and on and on.

I found this little tid bit that I thought was interesting here: Ferrari F430 Interior Review - Automobile Magazine

which says on the last 2 lines - "The twin-plate clutch is smaller to minimize inertia (for faster shifting) and to help reduce powertrain height. The F1-style transmission is expected to account for more than 80 percent of sales, but traditionalists can opt for a six-speed manual."

MORE THAN 80 percent of sales are going to the F1 style gearbox now.

Here's another read from - 2005 Ferrari F430 Review - ForbesAutos.com
The F430 coupe and Spider lean heavily on Ferrari's Formula One racing technology. The most obvious attribute is the paddle-shifter sequential manual transmission. SMTs are becoming familiar enough even in moderately priced Audis and BMWs that soon explanations of how they function will no longer be necessary. Until that time, it's worth pointing out that, although SMTs have no clutch pedal or conventional shift lever, they're unlike automatic transmissions in that they do have a clutch (or two, in some cases) and gear-change mechanism operated electrohydraulically via small paddles.

Ferrari introduced the first production paddle-shifted SMT in the 1997 F355 F1, two generations before the current F430. It was clunky and barely ready for prime time.

The subsequent SMT in the 360 Modena, which sits on Ferrari's timeline between the F355 and current F430, wasn't much of an improvement. An early 360 I drove during practice for a Ferrari Challenge race shifted hesitantly or, in the "sport" setting, too jarringly. But this technology is evolving rapidly and now each new SMT-equipped car, whatever the manufacturer, seems exponentially better than the previous one.

The F430's optional sequential manual transmission is the best yet —- so good that if you try to "help" it by lifting off the throttle between shifts, you'll simply confuse its electronic brain. Keep your foot to the floor, flick the paddles, and let electrons take care of the transitions, whether shifting up with the right or down with the left paddle.

The F430's paddle shifters are stationary, mounted on the steering-wheel column, unlike on BMWs and Audis, which have them attached to the steering wheel. Regardless of where they attach, these little paddles are so intuitive as to encourage shifts otherwise unfathomable with conventional manual transmissions — which isn't necessarily a good thing.

Is the F430 for You?
Options Worth Splurging On: The F1 paddle-shifter gearbox, without which an F430 is like a Range Rover with two-wheel drive.

Here's another very cool electronic system which would make the Viper even more dominating: E-Diff.

E-Diff Electronic Differential

One of the technical features that sets the F430 apart is the E-Diff or electronic differential. This solution has been used for years in F1 single-seaters and has been continuously developed and refined, effectively transferring massive torque levels to the track under extremely high cornering g-forces. The E-Diff is now standard equipment on the F430 - the first time that a production car has been equipped with such a sophisticated system for high-performance roadholding. On the track, the E-Diff guarantees maximum grip out of bends, eliminating wheel spin. On the road it is a formidable technological refinement that improves roadholding. This system is available both on the F1-paddle shift version as well as on the manual gearbox model and consists of three main subsystems:

• a high-pressure hydraulic system, shared with the F1 gearbox (if present);
• a control system consisting of valve, sensors and electronic control unit;
• a mechanical unit housed in the left side of the gearbox.

Now, the purists would hate to see anything electronic that would only improve the Viper - even if it were defeatable, like most of the electro-proponents want.


The really sad thing is this:

It seems like the Viper "purists" are so hell bent on keeping the Viper "pure" (as they see it), or rather 'old school' and absent of current sports car advancing technology, that they are willing to let the whole Viper brand die off, rather than to give in to something that will further the competitive nature of the Viper now and even more so down the road in the near future - and even more importantly, without question increase 'ownership desire' and sales - keeping the Viper line alive. Basically for the purists it's simply a matter of "cutting off one's nose, only to spite the face." Seriously, is it really worth THAT? How asinine.

So if the purists get their wishes, in a few more years, they will all be able to say, "Well, it was a good run. We fought hard and we kept the Viper a pure racing car just like the NASCAR machines. Yeah, we can't buy a new Viper anymore, because sales just died off, but we have our old 'pure to classic road racing and NASCAR' machines still."

"Yeah, we're gonna sit back on Sunday, drink sum beer an watch the NASCAR boys drive round an round with their pure - stick shiftun', clutch pushun' - machines. The Viper was a NASCAR machine because it's got 'stick shiftun and clutch mashun'. Yep, we killed it off Bubba, but it wuz well worth it-tall juss to keep it like NASCAR. Hey Bubba, you think we couda beet dem English boys drivin' dem James Bond foor seaters over dare in Lee mans if we haddunt killed off der Viper by keepun it pure like NASCAR? Wait a secund Bubba, don't the NASCAR cars ac-chooally come with foor seats? And don't day ac-chooally come wit doze automatical transmishions too? And ain't dare a buncha ole ladies from da church dat drive dem same cars too? Bubba, is our Vipers really all dat much like NASCAR and we-uz tryin' to keep um pure like NASCARz? Bubba, did we un shoot our selvz in da foot?"

"****** - jus shut up!"

 

[xanadu]

My God. This thread has taken a technical direction AGAIN.

My God, yep - He is awesome. To God be the glory, for great things HE has done!

 

[mike & juli]

My God, yep - He is awesome. To God be the glory, for great things HE has done!

GOSH! ~juli

 

[Andrew2KRT10]

That's great. Kep it raw and it'll be the only muscle car to last.

 

[Warfang]

Are you guys still here? Let's just agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Enjoy your cars today. The future is the future and we have no control over it. Some of us will be happy, some of us will not be. Deal with it.

We have bigger fishes to fry... some dumb czec thinks the Viper is a kit car.

 

[Vipermann]

MORE THAN 80 percent of sales are going to the F1 style gearbox now.

What do Ferrari sales have to do with the idea of a paddle shifter in a Viper? Nothing.

Ferrari sells to a COMPLETELY different consumer market than does the Viper. (And forget those few here that might own both -- you are atypical.)

Dodge could spend $$$ developing a paddle shifter for the Viper, only to have that Ferrari/Porsche type of consumer still turn their nose up at the Viper.

The Viper is perceived a raw and unrefined -- it always will be, thank god. Ferrari and Porsche consumers revel in the refinement of those automobiles. The two don't mix. Paddle-shifters are for a consumer that wants refinement -- a performance oriented, yes, but more subtle driving experience.

If anyone at Dodge is toying with this idea they don't recognize/understand the differences in these consumer segments (I know a little something about this because I am a consumer marketing exec by trade). Reality is that the Dodge Viper is stuck at a price point. Nobody is going to pay $100K+ for anything under a 'Dodge' name -- so don't go trying to add refinement to a vehicle that lives for being a supreme power/performance bang-for-the-buck value.

If Dodge needs to sell more Vipers, hold the price by keeping capital investment to a minimum (no major body style redesigns) and just keep evolving the the raw performance of the vehicle. Give consumers more race-inspired custom looks (like an ACR, or how about a cool race-looking colored seat belt option), get more visibility in racing teams, and maybe tweak the front nose for better aero/drag cd numbers.

And if Dodge just can't resist, I don't want to see a paddle shifter in a Viper unless it's decked out with rear wings, colored seat belts, track-looking wheels, etc. Don't waste your development money with an otherwise regular Viper with paddle shifters. ... and to buy into the idea, I would need to see that 'Dodge' on the track -- against those Ferraris and Porsches.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

50 years ago they said everybody would be driving automatics. And here we are in the new millennium and the stick is still going strong...and typically at a higher price than the autos.

Enjoy your paddles girls, and when you wonder why your ride just doesn't have the excitement your old stick car had you'll be back.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Are you guys still here? Let's just agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Enjoy your cars today. The future is the future and we have no control over it. Some of us will be happy, some of us will not be. Deal with it.

We have to keep the fight Warfang. Six years ago people whined about not having a "true" convertible. When Dodge delivered it people didn't like the look and it showed in the sales. Removing the sport bar to accommodate the "true" convertible made a drastic change to the style.

Know anybody that "thinks" they know what they want? Few people really do.

This paddle shifting fad will pass in time.