Is a viper with navigation really a viper???

[Warfang]

I have a navigation unit which plugs into outlet, but it would be easier if it were built-in. Cruise control might not be for everyone, but on trips of hundreds of miles (yes, I do DRIVE my Vipers) it is necessary for this old 60+ body. Or isn't a grandpa entitled to love driving his SRT Viper? Neither the Nav nor the cruise makes it less than a Viper....

Cruise control would be great for you! There are aftermarket solutions. I think Roe has them. But keep the car simple out of the factory.

 

[dave6666]

This thread is like Friday Night Wrastling at it's best. Boys, round two is RIGHT NOW!!!

 

[wallbanger]

Kelly Clarkson still in town?

 

[dave6666]

Kelly Clarkson still in town?

She bailed. Witch is famous now. No use for us plain folk.

 

[ViperTony]

...ABS, Traction Control, Heated Seats, Heads Up Display, Navigation, Cruise Control...I thought I stumbled into the Vette Forum for a moment.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Maybe some people could use that traction control or vipers wouldnt have such a bad reputation at the track. The patented word on the side of the car makes it a viper, you dont remove the R because it has a navigation.

You can stay in the stone age with your beleifs but dodge ate it enough with the first iteration of the SRT-10 that they have wised up a little bit, thank goodness you dont work for them.

Buy a Vette. I have no problem with people like you buying a Vette. Please buy a Vette. It has all that crap that makes driving fun for you.

The Viper has (had) bare essentials that made driving fun for me. Don't go changing my car when every other car on the market fits your wants and needs.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Chuck your arguments would have a bit more merit if you were actually buying new Vipers. Been a while hasn't it?

 

[2snakes4us]

Its a lot cheaper to get a portable and will work much better here is a good choice to get. garmin 660 you can take it with you in all you cars.

http://shopper.cnet.com/car-gps-nav...4014-3430_9-32078943.html?zip=65714&x=21&y=11

 

[dave6666]

Buy a Vette. I have no problem with people like you buying a Vette. Please buy a Vette. It has all that crap that makes driving fun for you.

The Viper has (had) bare essentials that made driving fun for me. Don't go changing my car when every other car on the market fits your wants and needs.

Dammit Spock, I'm a doctor, not a scientist!

 

[DodgeViper01]

No big deal. Navigation is a help aid plain and simple.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Chuck your arguments would have a bit more merit if you were actually buying new Vipers. Been a while hasn't it?

The 08 is very tempting.

 

[bluestreak]

Buy a Vette. I have no problem with people like you buying a Vette. Please buy a Vette. It has all that crap that makes driving fun for you.

The Viper has (had) bare essentials that made driving fun for me. Don't go changing my car when every other car on the market fits your wants and needs.

I already have a vette, and nearly bought a GTs to go along side it, but the lack of both TC and ABS was too much for me knowing I planned to road race it heavily. Do you even drive the car hard enough to notice the lack of TC? Probably not. Just the concept ****** is what you sound like. 99% of street driving you wouldnt notice having the TC or not (especially if it can be disabled) , so what is your point in having to be without it?

I'm not changing anything, I'm not an engineer or decision maker for DC. I'm just looking out for the hardheads like you who want to rush out and buy the hottest fastest car and have no knowledge of what that car can do to you.

DC will come to it's senses after it continues to raise prices and gets a few lawsuits. At least you can still hold on to your RT and be TC-less. You have almost 15 years worth of Vipers with no TC to buy, all of them dont have to fit your standards.

 

[black mamba1]

I can assure that if you did drive a car with a lighter rim and tire package you would have a different opinion. The stock package is overweight and the tires are too hard or rigid.

As for brake cooling no issue here and I have run on several tracks and the lift issue is a non issue...

As for the engineers designing the rims... they were designed for heavy, run flat tires so they needed to be extremely Stong "heavy" to deal with the rigors of running flat.

In the end i wouldnt do a modification which does provide a benefit or overall improvement of the working of the car. The HREs are probably 8-15 lighter at each corner which results in an immediate, noticeable improvement in ride and handling.

Are your responses scientific or just your opinion? The 08 does not have run flats and therefore according to your argument, there would be no need for a heavy rim designed to run on a flat tire. So this would justify putting a much lighter rim on the 08, right? ok., are the rims on the 08 any lighter? Get the weight of the 08 rim and not guess about it. Now, if you track the car, what speeds are you reaching? Some tracks, like Limerock in CT, only have speeds obtainable of about 140 mph (expert drivers), not really high enough for the lift issue to be significant. Now a track like Poconos or Ohio is a different story, you can reach speeds of 165 mph or slightly higher where lift would begin to become a factor. Lift is definitely a factor when trying to reach top speeds. Again, the brake issue may or may not be a factor for you, I am simply saying the factory wheels are designed to generate a certain cubic feet of air per min across the brakes for cooling and longer life and better performance. Maybe your aftermarket rims equal or surpass the design parameters, but you simply do not know...it is a gamble. Whereas w/ OEM wheels, it is not a gamble.

"HRE's are probably 8-15 lbs lighter ..."

Again, you are guessing. You say "probably" and then you give a range of weight which varies by almost 100%. As a Mechanical Engineer myself, I can tell you that kind of uncertainty is completely unacceptable when making decisions about a vehicle that costs almost 100k and that can travel at close to 200 mph. The sprung and unsprung masses affecting the suspension can produce behavior in the vehicle that is not predictable and not controllable if you began tinkering w/ design parameters. Now, you may be a very very good driver w/ lightening fast reaction times, but at least twice per month this summer we were reading about fatal car crashes w/ Viper owners....these cars can get away from you very quick especially when you do something you are not supposed to do.
Lastly, there is something called life-cycles that affect every moving part in the vehicle. Vibrations and heat are the number one causes of vehicle wear. Again the car is tuned for a certain vibration and again changing rims and tires throws the cars harmonics off and you accelerate wear on the vehicle, reducing life.
BUT, if none of these things are important to you....change your rims and go for it, maybe you will simply be lucky, or maybe it really does not matter, but I doubt it.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I already have a vette, and nearly bought a GTs to go along side it, but the lack of both TC and ABS was too much for me knowing I planned to road race it heavily.

LOL Stay in the rookie group. LOL

Do you even drive the car hard enough to notice the lack of TC? Probably not.

LOL ok now you're really, really comical. What are you an AE? C'mon fess up, which one of you Viper guys is pulling my leg? LOL Ron, is that you?

 

[Early93Viper]

I already have a vette, and nearly bought a GTs to go along side it, but the lack of both TC and ABS was too much for me knowing I planned to road race it heavily. Do you even drive the car hard enough to notice the lack of TC? Probably not. Just the concept ****** is what you sound like. 99% of street driving you wouldnt notice having the TC or not (especially if it can be disabled) , so what is your point in having to be without it?

I'm not changing anything, I'm not an engineer or decision maker for DC. I'm just looking out for the hardheads like you who want to rush out and buy the hottest fastest car and have no knowledge of what that car can do to you.

DC will come to it's senses after it continues to raise prices and gets a few lawsuits. At least you can still hold on to your RT and be TC-less. You have almost 15 years worth of Vipers with no TC to buy, all of them dont have to fit your standards.

Chuck tracks his car all the time in fact there are a lot of us track guys on the site. Saying you need TC for track days is ill-informed. Unless you’re a novice or maybe just have a few track days under your belt you will be faster with the TC turned off.

 

[Nader]

Are your responses scientific or just your opinion?

Lets break this down -

You said, "The 08 does not have run flats and therefore according to your argument, there would be no need for a heavy rim designed to run on a flat tire. So this would justify putting a much lighter rim on the 08, right? ok., are the rims on the 08 any lighter? Get the weight of the 08 rim and not guess about it. "

My response -
Aside from the new razors, the stock wheel that comes on the 08 is the stock wheel that came on the 06 - the five star which is quite heavy.

"Now, if you track the car, what speeds are you reaching? Some tracks, like Limerock in CT, only have speeds obtainable of about 140 mph (expert drivers), not really high enough for the lift issue to be significant. Now a track like Poconos or Ohio is a different story, you can reach speeds of 165 mph or slightly higher where lift would begin to become a factor. Lift is definitely a factor when trying to reach top speeds. Again, the brake issue may or may not be a factor for you, I am simply saying the factory wheels are designed to generate a certain cubic feet of air per min across the brakes for cooling and longer life and better performance. Maybe your aftermarket rims equal or surpass the design parameters, but you simply do not know...it is a gamble. Whereas w/ OEM wheels, it is not a gamble."

My Response:
Been to Pocono and had the car up to 150. Aside from that, I have had the car up to 175 mph and the car was firmly planted. I have since installed motons which further improved the ride and handling.

"HRE's are probably 8-15 lbs lighter ..." Again, you are guessing. You say "probably" and then you give a range of weight which varies by almost 100%. "

My response:
I am not guessing. I picked up each when I swapped them. The range is for the front and rear. Those are conservative numbers. You my friend have no experience with the wheel and tire packages and are guessing.

"As a Mechanical Engineer myself, I can tell you that kind of uncertainty is completely unacceptable when making decisions about a vehicle that costs almost 100k and that can travel at close to 200 mph. The sprung and unsprung masses affecting the suspension can produce behavior in the vehicle that is not predictable and not controllable if you began tinkering w/ design parameters. Now, you may be a very very good driver w/ lightening fast reaction times, but at least twice per month this summer we were reading about fatal car crashes w/ Viper owners....these cars can get away from you very quick especially when you do something you are not supposed to do."

My response:
The wheel and tire package signficantly improved the suspension dynamics due to the weight savings. It was a dramatic difference. Why are others who track their car adding light weight rim and tire packages to their SRT? Why do other performance cars owners all do the same like Porsche, Ferrari etc? The answer unsprung weight.


"Lastly, there is something called life-cycles that affect every moving part in the vehicle. Vibrations and heat are the number one causes of vehicle wear. Again the car is tuned for a certain vibration and again changing rims and tires throws the cars harmonics off and you accelerate wear on the vehicle, reducing life.
BUT, if none of these things are important to you....change your rims and go for it, maybe you will simply be lucky, or maybe it really does not matter, but I doubt it."

My response:
I am sure the vibration from the road alone is a lot worse then any minute change in "vibration" you get from changing the wheels and tires, if any.

 

[Peter Nielsen]

Does anyone else think having navigation as an option for the 2008 viper makes it less viperish. I thought vipers should be raw and unluxurious as can be thats why theres not any cup holders or anything like that. Does anyone get what im saying or with 600 hp they could care less if it comes with navigation .

The cool thing is not the navigation, but the iPod integration capability (the big display will display artist/song name, etc).

That's the main reason I ordered the nav. Not for the navigator ...

Peter

 

[black mamba1]

Mr. Nader,
Just b/c many people do something does not make it correct or "better". A car is a "system" designed to bring many systems together to work as one. Modded cars violate that "system approach" and do not hold value as well as stock for that very reason, warranties are nullified by modding for that very reason.

You may be correct about the short term performance enhancement, you may not be. Chrysler has years of engineering under their belt to substantiate why they do things. They are not flawless, but they are also not guessing. You are. And you do not know the long term affect of what you are doing. For every second of improvement you get on a track, I can point to spin-outs, broken half-shafts, and cars flipping. The fact that you said you got your weight savings because of how the rims "felt when you picked them up" is....well...lets just say that is not scientific either. And if you approach your modifications by "how things feel" as opposed to putting numbers to it, that is a recipe for disaster.

Bottom line is this, your car is your car. You have the right to do anything you want to to it. Change rims, change suspension, s/c, TT, whatever makes you happy. It is still a Viper and it is still one intimidating incredible automobile. Do whatever makes you happy, just understand that there are consequences.

 

[bluestreak]

Chuck tracks his car all the time in fact there are a lot of us track guys on the site. Saying you need TC for track days is ill-informed. Unless you’re a novice or maybe just have a few track days under your belt you will be faster with the TC turned off.

I agree, I never said it was needed for track days, but possibly useful (especially for novices) If your lines are good, a good TC will not cut on and you can go fast, it is used as a teacher by many.

But my point is moreso, how many viper owners track their car (a small percent), of those that do, how many are seasoned track drivers (a small percent of the small percent), most are occasional weekend warriors, who could certainly use the TC. And the large majority of people who like to push it on an open road, mountain run etc. can use it even more. I dont think there are a significant number of good enough drivers of any car to reamin w/ out TC.

 

[SNKEBIT]

All I can say is:
"The stupid protecting the stupid."
There are already too many stupid people breeding................
Using TC too teach yourself how to drive a 600 hp car IS A BAD THING. If you need TC, you shouldn't be driving one in the first place.

 

[bluestreak]

All I can say is:
"The stupid protecting the stupid."
There are already too many stupid people breeding................
Using TC too teach yourself how to drive a 600 hp car IS A BAD THING. If you need TC, you shouldn't be driving one in the first place.

LOL....... that is all I can say......LOL


FYI F1 cars have TC (I.E. The best drivers in the world) I guess they shouldnt be driving either?????

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I agree, I never said it was needed for track days, but possibly useful (especially for novices)

I was riding with a novice in a TC car. He did a 360 in turn 17 Sebring and when we finally came to a stop he said, "I didn't think it would do that."

I wonder how many are gonna learn a lesson like that on public roads.

 

[bluestreak]

I was riding with a novice in a TC car. He did a 360 in turn 17 Sebring and when we finally came to a stop he said, "I didn't think it would do that."

I wonder how many are gonna learn a lesson like that on public roads.

You are really reaching for straws now huh? Who ever said TC was fool proof? I bet your first DE you went out guns blazing not concerned about your personal safety or anything. (yeah right) I know it's saved my butt more than a few times, and for any progressing driver, you have to learn how to drive without it, you dont know automatically. Once you learn proper correction techiniques, what to do when you "lose it" then it can be turned off. Most people dont know this, I'd bet there are several people who would liked to have had this info before they crumpled their car into a wall.

The fact of the matter is that it wont take anything from the car if it can be disabled, SO STOP YOUR BELLYACHING!!! It can be used for people who are smart drivers and dont have to run out trying to be the king of the road. Vipers have the reputation they have because of the (some) people who drive them and the stuff they dont have (I.E TC).

Another fact is that most people will turn it off before they are ready, ending up in spins and crashes.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

You are really reaching for straws now huh? Who ever said TC was fool proof? I bet your first DE you went out guns blazing not concerned about your personal safety or anything. (yeah right) I know it's saved my butt more than a few times, and for any progressing driver, you have to learn how to drive without it, you dont know automatically. Once you learn proper correction techiniques, what to do when you "lose it" then it can be turned off. Most people dont know this, I'd bet there are several people who would liked to have had this info before they crumpled their car into a wall.

The fact of the matter is that it wont take anything from the car if it can be disabled, SO STOP YOUR BELLYACHING!!! It can be used for people who are smart drivers and dont have to run out trying to be the king of the road. Vipers have the reputation they have because of the (some) people who drive them and the stuff they dont have (I.E TC).

Another fact is that most people will turn it off before they are ready, ending up in spins and crashes.

I'm reaching for straws? You're the one who thinks TC is gonna save everybody from wrecking. I'm giving you a real world example of someone who thought the same thing and thankfully learned otherwise on a track and not the street.

Leave your TC to vehicles like sedans, minivans and SUVs

...oh and Vettes.

BTW since you're a novice and don't know how to drive fast yet, I'll give you a little free advice. There's a little sound the tires make when you're on the edge. If you're driving like that on the street then lack of TC is not your problem.

 

[bluestreak]

I'm reaching for straws? You're the one who thinks TC is gonna save everybody from wrecking. I'm giving you a real world example of someone who thought the same thing and thankfully learned otherwise on a track and not the street.

Leave your TC to vehicles like sedans, minivans and SUVs

...oh and Vettes.

BTW since you're a novice and don't know how to drive fast yet, I'll give you a little free advice. There's a little sound the tires make when you're on the edge. If you're driving like that on the street then lack of TC is not your problem.

LOL, you have no idea who you're talking to, but I'll be to sebring sometime in the next year, I 'll make sure to look you up.


VIPERS WILL HAVE TC, so I guess when better, next gen vipers come out, you'll have to stick with what you got.


Yeah the tires scream, but that is not fool proof either.

 

[Nader]

Okay I agree - to each his own but I must disagree on several of your comments -

First - your comment, "Modded cars violate that "system approach" and do not hold value as well as stock for that very reason"

This certainly is not true. Modded cars to most are more desirable but in most cases not to the full extent of the cost of the mods. Additionally a modded car can be returned to stock. If you think that as soon as you install a mod, the value of the care goes down, that is just silly.

Your entire "system theory" is blown out the window once you add an air filter or any other mod which i am sure you have done. The engineers have to build cars around regulations and cost, therefore they have to design the car in ways that are not necessarily in the best interest of performance - i.e. overweight rims and tires, air filters, crappy pistons etc. Also I have seen posts by you where you express interest in engine upgrades which would elevate horsepower levels significantly. Doesnt this violate your "system theory"? The car was designed for 500hp correct?

Finally if you are saying that rims and tires packages result in spin outs, broken axles and cars flipping, i would love to hear one actual event that you know of and how it relates to upgrading wheels and tires to a lighter set. I would guess that significant increases in horspower will result in spin outs, broken axles and cars flipping more times then changing the wheels and tires.


Just to let you know I am in no way argueing with you. You have an opinion and so do I.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

LOL, you have no idea who you're talking to,

Yes I do. You're the guy that made this comment...

I already have a vette, and nearly bought a GTs to go along side it, but the lack of both TC and ABS was too much for me knowing I planned to road race it heavily.

Can't drive fast without ABS and TC huh? Too bad.

When you come to Sebring bring a C6 Z06. It's about the only thing my non-ABS, non-TC 10-year-old ****** can't beat...well that and a few non-TC Vipers.

 

[CitySnake]

Getting a bit off topic, perhaps for the right reasons. I agree with the Tampa Terror in general, but not specifically with a Nav radio option. Part of the attraction of the Viper IS its raw nature. It require 2 hands and serious concentration even on the street. It's a "DRIVER'S" car. I don't agree that a Nav. radio option makes it any less of a Viper. I draw the line at "driving,", i.e., does the option change the "driving" style of the car. Nav. does not. TC does. JMHO.

 

[mike & juli]

Getting a bit off topic, perhaps for the right reasons. I agree with the Tampa Terror in general, but not specifically with a Nav radio option. Part of the attraction of the Viper IS its raw nature. It require 2 hands and serious concentration even on the street. It's a "DRIVER'S" car. I don't agree that a Nav. radio option makes it any less of a Viper. I draw the line at "driving,", i.e., does the option change the "driving" style of the car. Nav. does not. TC does. JMHO.

Well, Scott--you weren't off topic *whew* (happening too often lately!!)....you are saying what I always say: The Viper IS a DRIVERS' car....YOU are in control of EVERYthing that happens when you're driving, and yes, you best pay attention...what you said about nav., true, doesn't make it less of a Viper at all...it's not DRIVING for you...just giving you directions. Now that's JMHO~~~for what it's ever worth~~~~juli

 

[black mamba1]

Okay I agree - to each his own but I must disagree on several of your comments -

First - your comment, "Modded cars violate that "system approach" and do not hold value as well as stock for that very reason" No worry on the argument, I think we are having a healthy debate that may help many in the forum.

This certainly is not true. Modded cars to most are more desirable but in most cases not to the full extent of the cost of the mods. Additionally a modded car can be returned to stock. If you think that as soon as you install a mod, the value of the care goes down, that is just silly. Here, I cannot disagree with you more. When I bought my 04 it was listed at $65k w/ 1400 miles on it and bone stock. Right next to it was red 05 w/ a Paxton on it w/ 800 miles. It was listed at $58k. Any dealer will tell you stock cars sell higher and faster than modded cars, simply b/c there is the perception that modded cars were probably abused. Whether that perception is actual fact, that is the perception. Also, modded cars have no warranty. MOdded also only usually appeal to Viper faithful. Joe blow off the street will prefer to do his own mods if he does any at all. Some mods cannot be completely reversed.

Your entire "system theory" is blown out the window once you add an air filter or any other mod which i am sure you have done. The engineers have to build cars around regulations and cost, therefore they have to design the car in ways that are not necessarily in the best interest of performance - i.e. overweight rims and tires, air filters, crappy pistons etc. Also I have seen posts by you where you express interest in engine upgrades which would elevate horsepower levels significantly. Doesnt this violate your "system theory"? The car was designed for 500hp correct? Every system is designed with allowable tolerances. Changing air filters I imagine are w/in those tolerances, but again, there could be side effects such as increased engine wear due to more particles entering the engine, etc. And yes, I have all kinds of ideas about modding my Vipers, but I am willing to accept the consequences especially if they do not affect the handling of the vehicle. I would never mod the wheels b/c I do not like suprises in handling at 150 mph. I would however, mod the engine and other things. I am fully aware of voided warranties and reduced engine life and unpredictable computer and other problems that mods bring, but the benefit to me is worth the costs.

Finally if you are saying that rims and tires packages result in spin outs, broken axles and cars flipping, i would love to hear one actual event that you know of and how it relates to upgrading wheels and tires to a lighter set. I would guess that significant increases in horspower will result in spin outs, broken axles and cars flipping more times then changing the wheels and tires. Smaller wheels and tires result in torque changes to the axle and can cause damage. The sprung and unsprung mass in the cars suspension is tuned so that the wheels move up and down in a certain time frame. Wheels too heavy and the car reacts to slowly, too light and the car reacts too quickly, both are out of the design parameters and the rest of the suspension is taking "inputs" from the modded suspension that are not in sync with how it is tuned to perform, so the remaining suspension does not know how to compensate for this "out of tolerance data". Result? Unpredictability. Now, can you prove that spin outs and cars flipping were not the cause of mods? hmmmm


Just to let you know I am in no way argueing with you. You have an opinion and so do I.

see the above