I am very disappointed to hear the result of the drags, it seems all the hype about biggest and baddest and when the smoke cleared two non power adder adder cars are the best. I think it's time some of the tuners rethink there direction or get their act together before the next event. Why all the plumming and spray to lose to heads and cam. Personally i expected to see mid 9's or better from the big boys, only my humble opinion.
IS THAT ALL THERE IS...
- Thread starter ronviper
- Start date
Scott J
Enthusiast
ronviper:
It is fairly well accepted that the Viper's strongest suit is not drag racing. The best drag racers are single-purpose vehicles, whereas the Viper tends to shine on road courses.
If I was a drag racing kind of guy I'd certainly look to build a Mustang or F-body (or even a classic Mopar). I'd then proceed to gut the car and build with one goal in mind.
Rarely do you see a car that is truly excellent in both drag racing and road course racing, but I think the Viper represents one of the most balanced offerings on the planet.
It is fairly well accepted that the Viper's strongest suit is not drag racing. The best drag racers are single-purpose vehicles, whereas the Viper tends to shine on road courses.
If I was a drag racing kind of guy I'd certainly look to build a Mustang or F-body (or even a classic Mopar). I'd then proceed to gut the car and build with one goal in mind.
Rarely do you see a car that is truly excellent in both drag racing and road course racing, but I think the Viper represents one of the most balanced offerings on the planet.
toddt
Enthusiast
It just goes to show that power isn't all there is to drag racing--i.e. ET.
There is SO much more. Don't you ever ask yourself why there are so many Grand Nationals that WHEELIE off the line into the 10s? With a 3.8 liter engine and a turbo?
It is a supreme struggle, from where I'm sitting, to even GET a viper into the 10s.
What I see is people getting their cars into the 10s WITHOUT destroying their street look, and the GN's cannot do that. ******** rears, spooled rearend, tiny narrow skinnies and NO suspension.
There is SO much more. Don't you ever ask yourself why there are so many Grand Nationals that WHEELIE off the line into the 10s? With a 3.8 liter engine and a turbo?
It is a supreme struggle, from where I'm sitting, to even GET a viper into the 10s.
What I see is people getting their cars into the 10s WITHOUT destroying their street look, and the GN's cannot do that. ******** rears, spooled rearend, tiny narrow skinnies and NO suspension.
Gerald
Enthusiast
75% of customers don't care about drag racing in the 1/4 mile. 99% of customers cars that come from tuners are being used as daily drivers and only on the street. It's time people RETHINK their way of thinking of what a tuner does and a real definition of a street car that has some serious power...
I"m sure there are many other true street cars at VOI. Those are the ones , me personally , I'm most impressed with. I Never hang out at the drags. I'm always on the street. That's how I , personally , want to see the cars.
A Viper setup for drags with Slicks, shocks, etc etc running 10.5 at 130 will get EATEN ALIVE on the streets by a motorcycle.
A Viper runnning 138+ on stock RADIALS will eat 95% o fthe motorcycles alive on the street. See the difference?
Screw E.T.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gimme MPH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
/rant over/
Gerald
I"m sure there are many other true street cars at VOI. Those are the ones , me personally , I'm most impressed with. I Never hang out at the drags. I'm always on the street. That's how I , personally , want to see the cars.
A Viper setup for drags with Slicks, shocks, etc etc running 10.5 at 130 will get EATEN ALIVE on the streets by a motorcycle.
A Viper runnning 138+ on stock RADIALS will eat 95% o fthe motorcycles alive on the street. See the difference?
Screw E.T.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gimme MPH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
/rant over/
Gerald
I have a viper and would not spend the money some people have for the result they are getting. I assume most spend to kick butt not only to look good or why not stay stock? To me the results are disappointing, vettes are similar and would perform better with the same money spent on them. The N/A cars are very impressive, spray and forced induction still have a way to go.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
I'm guessing most people don't do the required suspension mods to get 9s in a Viper. If they made 30,000 Vipers every year there would no doubt be several in the 9s.
In the end, the Viper is still a Viper and those other cars are just...well, other cars.
In the end, the Viper is still a Viper and those other cars are just...well, other cars.
Eddie N
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The N/A cars are very impressive, spray and forced induction still have a way to go.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
aren't you the same guy that was kissing hennesseys asp, er, i mean praising hennessey for his twin turbo cars in a thread maybe 2 weeks ago?
pick a team already!!
although i'm dissappointed as well, but noit because of the times, but because of the **** rain.. all that talk, all that hype, and it just fizzled..
- eddie -
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
aren't you the same guy that was kissing hennesseys asp, er, i mean praising hennessey for his twin turbo cars in a thread maybe 2 weeks ago?
pick a team already!!
although i'm dissappointed as well, but noit because of the times, but because of the **** rain.. all that talk, all that hype, and it just fizzled..
- eddie -
Gerald
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ronviper:
I have a viper and would not spend the money some people have for the result they are getting. I assume most spend to kick butt not only to look good or why not stay stock? To me the results are disappointing, vettes are similar and would perform better with the same money spent on them. The N/A cars are very impressive, spray and forced induction still have a way to go.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't understand that statement.
There are cars there hitting 150 MPH or near 150 MPH and even ticking the 140's. That isn't fast for you?? Put down what you are smoking or gimme some! If your looking for E.T... That's not fast.. That's quick only and how the power hooks up in the 1st 60 ft. If you want a car that is fast for the 1st 60ft. There are 4 wheel drive pickups that will do pretty good.
I have a viper and would not spend the money some people have for the result they are getting. I assume most spend to kick butt not only to look good or why not stay stock? To me the results are disappointing, vettes are similar and would perform better with the same money spent on them. The N/A cars are very impressive, spray and forced induction still have a way to go.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't understand that statement.
There are cars there hitting 150 MPH or near 150 MPH and even ticking the 140's. That isn't fast for you?? Put down what you are smoking or gimme some! If your looking for E.T... That's not fast.. That's quick only and how the power hooks up in the 1st 60 ft. If you want a car that is fast for the 1st 60ft. There are 4 wheel drive pickups that will do pretty good.
EddieN, i love turbo cars period but if they don't perform up to expectations i am disappointed. That includes HENNESSEY, all hype and no go troubles me. My first plans was turbo's however heads and cam sure is alot cheaper bang for the buck.
Chuck 97 GTS
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ronviper:
The N/A cars are very impressive, spray and forced induction still have a way to go.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I dunno about you, but a Sean Roe supercharger for $7K that is running 10.7's at 130 is pretty impressive. It's not THE fastest setup out there, but it represents a new price vs. performance benchmark for the Viper. That LPE package is impressive, but is .5 seconds and 6 mph in the quarter worth the extra ~$30K that it costs? Probably not for most of us. But then again, I'm not rich.
The N/A cars are very impressive, spray and forced induction still have a way to go.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I dunno about you, but a Sean Roe supercharger for $7K that is running 10.7's at 130 is pretty impressive. It's not THE fastest setup out there, but it represents a new price vs. performance benchmark for the Viper. That LPE package is impressive, but is .5 seconds and 6 mph in the quarter worth the extra ~$30K that it costs? Probably not for most of us. But then again, I'm not rich.
Gerald
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ronviper:
Gerald racing is who gets from point A to point B first not how much mph. What is the good running 150mph and get beat by 130mph, people only remember winners not mph.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dude, you are SMOKING crack.... Yes the car would get beat in the 1/4, but only by E.T. the 135 mph car or higher is FASTER..
I like fast cars. Not just cars that E.T. nice.. In fact how many vettes do you see E.T.'ing at mid 11's ONLY MPH'ing at like 111 or less? Are they fast? Nope.... I'll kill 'em on the street with my 12 second Viper...
In fact, I'll bet you some money if you're ever down here. I"m sure I can only drive my car in the high 11's to low 12's ( I can't drag race). You find a Viper that E.T's with Slicks, skinnies, etc in the 11's and I'll race them on the street and we'll see who wins..
Gerald
Gerald racing is who gets from point A to point B first not how much mph. What is the good running 150mph and get beat by 130mph, people only remember winners not mph.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dude, you are SMOKING crack.... Yes the car would get beat in the 1/4, but only by E.T. the 135 mph car or higher is FASTER..
I like fast cars. Not just cars that E.T. nice.. In fact how many vettes do you see E.T.'ing at mid 11's ONLY MPH'ing at like 111 or less? Are they fast? Nope.... I'll kill 'em on the street with my 12 second Viper...
In fact, I'll bet you some money if you're ever down here. I"m sure I can only drive my car in the high 11's to low 12's ( I can't drag race). You find a Viper that E.T's with Slicks, skinnies, etc in the 11's and I'll race them on the street and we'll see who wins..
Gerald
Anthony - 98 GTS
Enthusiast
Head, cam & nitrous set-ups are still the best bang for the buck. Almost ALL Viper's in the 9's are heads, cam & nitrous cars (except for the Hennessey's TT which is heads, cam, nitrous & twin turbos).
Keep in mind both N/A cars are strokers - which is NOT cheap (Norms is 518 ci, LPE's 540 ci).
The Sean Roe Supercharger looks good - but keep in mind SW was driving and his car was NOT stock before the SC. I know his car was a Venom 500 and I am not sure if the valve covers have been off.
Keep in mind both N/A cars are strokers - which is NOT cheap (Norms is 518 ci, LPE's 540 ci).
The Sean Roe Supercharger looks good - but keep in mind SW was driving and his car was NOT stock before the SC. I know his car was a Venom 500 and I am not sure if the valve covers have been off.
Gerald i would gladly share my crack pipe with you. I ask you do you think most went out to dragfor mph or et. I am sure anyone would take a 9 second pass over 10.50 at 150. Gerald we are talking drag racing at Beech Bend not road racing. The tuners went to lay down numbers and et wins period.
Anthony - 98 GTS
Enthusiast
Why does it have to be one or the other - you should want BOTH.
Albert's RT went 9.63 at 150 last weekend - best of BOTH worlds!!
Albert's RT went 9.63 at 150 last weekend - best of BOTH worlds!!
BUD
Enthusiast
With all this crack use on the board there are gona be some REAL cheap Vipers for sale.
Gerald
Enthusiast
I would agree, a true dragger would want both... I"m just clarifying that by saying since a car doesn't ET what the HP says, that doesn't make it a slow car. Some tuners and people aren't interested in getting off the line quickly..
I guess I'm the only one interested in HP. If I wanted a car that E.T'd only, I"d buy a set of slicks, skinnies, heavy duty 1/2 shafts, take out my sway bar and only ride it at the strip and mark some high 10's in "quick" but not "fast" viper.D
NOW it's time to hit the pipe..
Gerald
I guess I'm the only one interested in HP. If I wanted a car that E.T'd only, I"d buy a set of slicks, skinnies, heavy duty 1/2 shafts, take out my sway bar and only ride it at the strip and mark some high 10's in "quick" but not "fast" viper.D
NOW it's time to hit the pipe..
Gerald
I am also dissappointed with the results. ~1000RWHP cars not in the 9's!! I can't believe it! I don't care if the car is setup for drag racing or not, those cars should be in the 9's. All of the super high HP cars with SC's and NOS and not beating to NA is crap. What is the DEAL? I have nothing against any of these guys who have spent money on these cars putting NOS and SC but where is the performance? We need some drag racing GURU who can enlighten us. I know we do not have a solid axle but we have tons of HP. I am not an expert but just a viper lover who is willing to spend money for good performance. My money is on the vipers with a stroker motor. I want to buy a Roe SC but I want someone else to be the ginni pig for the heads and cam cars. I would like to see someone post some good numbers with his kit. Not just dyno queen numbers but ET and MPH numbers.
Don't take me wrong, i am just frustrated that these super cars are getting beat by less HP cars.
Concerned about getting beat by a steetable buick! 10.5 1/4 ET @4500ft
Don't take me wrong, i am just frustrated that these super cars are getting beat by less HP cars.
Concerned about getting beat by a steetable buick! 10.5 1/4 ET @4500ft
King GTS
Enthusiast
Steve Ueligger definitely has gotten a 9 second ET out of his Viper and he was still right there in it, capable of reeling off another. But I do agree with your post. Albert ran a 9.9 ET during qualifying but you'd think there would've been a lot more of those kind of times.
MES
Enthusiast
One problem I see with this event, is they (tuners) only had a few runs to get good numbers. Had they been allowed to make say 20 passes over a period of 6 hours, for example, I would bet we would see many more good ET's out of these cars. Finding the best launch, shift points, etc. would be hard without lots of experience. Many of these cars are freshly built, without alot of seat time.
Regards to the ET & MPH thing. All of the higher powered cars should have been running on ET Streets & skinnies. Therefore the playing field is level for those cars, so it's fair to look at the ET's and compare a nitrous, supercharged, and N/A car to each other.
Street racing is a drag race, it's just a different type of drag race. It may not be a dead stop to 1/4 mile race, a street race may be a 30MPH to 120MPH or a 60 to 150 or maybe from 0 to 80 but it's still a drag race just the same.
My .02
Regards to the ET & MPH thing. All of the higher powered cars should have been running on ET Streets & skinnies. Therefore the playing field is level for those cars, so it's fair to look at the ET's and compare a nitrous, supercharged, and N/A car to each other.
Street racing is a drag race, it's just a different type of drag race. It may not be a dead stop to 1/4 mile race, a street race may be a 30MPH to 120MPH or a 60 to 150 or maybe from 0 to 80 but it's still a drag race just the same.
My .02
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
I am not a drag racing expert, but here are a few things to remember.
1) Without good traction, YOU CANNOT GET A GOOD ET!!! You can keep tossing horsepower at the problem but all you will do is make your car harder to drive, raise your MPH (a little) and make the traction problem even worse.
2) The Viper frame does not allow the car to torque when it launches - not as much as a drag car would (ever see the car twist when it lifts in the air?). The suspension is IRS - not as good as a solid rear axle for drag racing because it pushes the back end up and hurts traction. A Viper will NEVER be as easy to get running quick as a Mustang is. A 1000hp Viper vs a 1000hp Mustang - the Mustang has a big advantage.
3) MPH = horsepower. It's soooo hard to hook up 800hp off the line without huge slicks. I could probably outRUN Gerald's car... for about 10 feet simply because I can get better traction. If car A runs 130mph in the 1/4 and car B runs 140mph, car B is MUCH quicker. Remember the faster you go, the less time you have to accelerate... so it might take 50hp to go from a 100mph trap to a 110mph trap, but it will take 300hp to go from a 130 trap to a 140 trap.
ANY car that is running anything below a 10.3 or so in the 1/4 is not streetable. Now, before the flames start. What I mean is there is no configuration you can run at the track to do a 10.3 and run on the street. Who wants to drive on ET streets and skinnies? Sure, you can put street tires on like Pilots, but then you won't be running anything below 10.5's at the track most likely, even with 2000hp.
The difference between Gerald's car that could trap at 135mph, and a car that runs 128mph, is that if they are both going along at 30mph, and they both hit it, Gerald's car is going to walk the other car like a dog. Even in a stock Viper, a stoplight race is going to come down to the car that launches better. Any sort of moving-race is going to be won by the higher horsepower car.
1) Without good traction, YOU CANNOT GET A GOOD ET!!! You can keep tossing horsepower at the problem but all you will do is make your car harder to drive, raise your MPH (a little) and make the traction problem even worse.
2) The Viper frame does not allow the car to torque when it launches - not as much as a drag car would (ever see the car twist when it lifts in the air?). The suspension is IRS - not as good as a solid rear axle for drag racing because it pushes the back end up and hurts traction. A Viper will NEVER be as easy to get running quick as a Mustang is. A 1000hp Viper vs a 1000hp Mustang - the Mustang has a big advantage.
3) MPH = horsepower. It's soooo hard to hook up 800hp off the line without huge slicks. I could probably outRUN Gerald's car... for about 10 feet simply because I can get better traction. If car A runs 130mph in the 1/4 and car B runs 140mph, car B is MUCH quicker. Remember the faster you go, the less time you have to accelerate... so it might take 50hp to go from a 100mph trap to a 110mph trap, but it will take 300hp to go from a 130 trap to a 140 trap.
ANY car that is running anything below a 10.3 or so in the 1/4 is not streetable. Now, before the flames start. What I mean is there is no configuration you can run at the track to do a 10.3 and run on the street. Who wants to drive on ET streets and skinnies? Sure, you can put street tires on like Pilots, but then you won't be running anything below 10.5's at the track most likely, even with 2000hp.
The difference between Gerald's car that could trap at 135mph, and a car that runs 128mph, is that if they are both going along at 30mph, and they both hit it, Gerald's car is going to walk the other car like a dog. Even in a stock Viper, a stoplight race is going to come down to the car that launches better. Any sort of moving-race is going to be won by the higher horsepower car.
MES
Enthusiast
Keep in mind my times are not the best and I just do it for fun. I'm sure the car has more in it, in fact I'm going to find out this Friday night
I'm also glad to see Roe's supercharger doing so well 10.7@130 is moving, it's on my shopping list
maybe Santa will be good to me this Christmas
I'm also glad to see Roe's supercharger doing so well 10.7@130 is moving, it's on my shopping list
jimandela
Enthusiast
If i was going to enhance my car today
I would go with LPE hands down.
Bigger cubic inches= bigger HP and MPH numbers.
just my 2 cents.
JIM
I would go with LPE hands down.
Bigger cubic inches= bigger HP and MPH numbers.
just my 2 cents.
JIM
Gerald the nationals are for bragging rights for the tuners and their customers so having the quickest and fastest viper is very important for business. Et wins races, what good is horsepower if you cann't harness it. The last time i looked it was always the guy who got there first that won. Dyno numbers mean nothing if you cann't back it up when it counts, remember this is not a car show but drag racing so winning is what it's all about. If the tuners were not ready they should not race then, you know the saying you follow you swallow.
jcaspar1
Enthusiast
ronviper,
Don't tell that to the Supra owners! They think that running from a roll is racing. Running from a roll on the street is not really racing, just messing around. Still fun but not real drag racing. Real racing should require skill and running from a roll requires nearly zero skill (was going to say absolutely zero but you do have to shift!). Because of this it is better for comparing a cars power as it is nearly independent of the driver. A monkey with $$ can win a race from a roll but may lose miserably in a real drag race without skill and practice. This is not a flame as I think we are all saying the same thing.
ET requires HP, light weight, weight transfer, traction, talent, skill, and practice. That's racing. MPH just requires HP and a right foot.
Anyone who says drag racing is easy hasn't tried it in a Viper!
Don't tell that to the Supra owners! They think that running from a roll is racing. Running from a roll on the street is not really racing, just messing around. Still fun but not real drag racing. Real racing should require skill and running from a roll requires nearly zero skill (was going to say absolutely zero but you do have to shift!). Because of this it is better for comparing a cars power as it is nearly independent of the driver. A monkey with $$ can win a race from a roll but may lose miserably in a real drag race without skill and practice. This is not a flame as I think we are all saying the same thing.
ET requires HP, light weight, weight transfer, traction, talent, skill, and practice. That's racing. MPH just requires HP and a right foot.
Anyone who says drag racing is easy hasn't tried it in a Viper!
Gerald
Enthusiast
You may have a point ronvpr, but I see it different I guess. Dyno numbers don't lie. It's backed up with MPH.. NOT E.T. E.T. may win drag races, but how many cars see the strip? I would say probably less than 2%.
By saying the Tuners fall short is s pretty stupid comment.
Most tuners don't have time to build their own car for the track or a customers car just for the track. I"m 100% positive if tuners were ONLY interested in 1/4 mile times, you'd see Vipers in the mid 9's. But they are more interested in getting the customer HP, not a car that is *** fast for *** amount of time. Whether it be TNT, BTR, DLM, etc. They all work hard at getting customer HP numbers that reflects in MPH. So if you're only happy with E.T. and want bang for the buck.. Get a C5, save 20k and put slicks on it and run in the 11's at ***whoah***, 110 mph and be happy. Me? I"ll stick with a car that is capable of a 140 MPH trap speeds and have fun on the streets destroying bikes, etc. They always ask, "what does it do in the 1/4?" I say "with street tires, probably mid 11's to 12's with me driving"
The challengers pull out (99% of the time , they're bikes) and say "this is a 9 second bike), they kill me off the launch (E.T.!!!!), 2nd gear they're still gaining, by 3rd gear I'm even and 4th gear I'm passing them laughing... Yup, strike another win up for the dyno queen at 800RWHP that only E.T.'s in the 12's....
Racing for one person has a different meaning then for the other person. I personally want a street car , not a 1/4 mile car..
OK, this is a dead horse..
Peace
Gerald
By saying the Tuners fall short is s pretty stupid comment.
Most tuners don't have time to build their own car for the track or a customers car just for the track. I"m 100% positive if tuners were ONLY interested in 1/4 mile times, you'd see Vipers in the mid 9's. But they are more interested in getting the customer HP, not a car that is *** fast for *** amount of time. Whether it be TNT, BTR, DLM, etc. They all work hard at getting customer HP numbers that reflects in MPH. So if you're only happy with E.T. and want bang for the buck.. Get a C5, save 20k and put slicks on it and run in the 11's at ***whoah***, 110 mph and be happy. Me? I"ll stick with a car that is capable of a 140 MPH trap speeds and have fun on the streets destroying bikes, etc. They always ask, "what does it do in the 1/4?" I say "with street tires, probably mid 11's to 12's with me driving"
The challengers pull out (99% of the time , they're bikes) and say "this is a 9 second bike), they kill me off the launch (E.T.!!!!), 2nd gear they're still gaining, by 3rd gear I'm even and 4th gear I'm passing them laughing... Yup, strike another win up for the dyno queen at 800RWHP that only E.T.'s in the 12's....
Racing for one person has a different meaning then for the other person. I personally want a street car , not a 1/4 mile car..
OK, this is a dead horse..
Peace
Gerald
SlowCreamPuff
Enthusiast
Quote: "running from a roll requires nearly zero skill"...
Hmm... I am guessing that you haven't try 60mph, full throttle with 600+rwhp & 600+rwtq.
Hmm... I am guessing that you haven't try 60mph, full throttle with 600+rwhp & 600+rwtq.
jcaspar1
Enthusiast
"Hmm... I am guessing that you haven't try 60mph, full throttle with 600+rwhp & 600+rwtq.
