King of Torque?

Russ M

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Hanging out at my friends dyno shop we started to compare torque numbers from different sports cars modified or not, and the Vipers seem to come out on top.

No other car that we looked up could match the Vipers torque numbers from 700rpm on up. A vette guy who was there started to say something like a Vette has amazing low end torque until he saw the Vipers numbers. A typical zo6 lets say has 150 torque from idle, while my viper had 370 @700 rpm and over 450 at 1500rpm.

Which brings me to the conclusion that the Viper is the undisputed king of low end torque, even compared to Diesel small trucks the numbers are impressive.

small trucks the numbers are impressive.
 
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Russ M

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They had many.

Cummins old and new, Duramax, and Ford PSD and the 6.0. Only the Duramax and 6.0 ford came close to the Viper but while they were maxed out by 1500 rpm on torque the Viper still had more in it.
 

Viperzilla

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Forgot to ask what mods if any the Viper had, along with any other vehicles tested. Sorry I couldn't gather this up in one post. My brain's a little sketchy today being Monday.
 

SnakeBitten

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Hanging out at my friends dyno shop we started to compare torque numbers from different sports cars modified or not, and the Vipers seem to come out on top.

No other car that we looked up could match the Vipers torque numbers from 700rpm on up. A vette guy who was there started to say something like a Vette has amazing low end torque until he saw the Vipers numbers. A typical zo6 lets say has 150 torque from idle, while my viper had 370 @700 rpm and over 450 at 1500rpm.

Which brings me to the conclusion that the Viper is the undisputed king of low end torque, even compared to Diesel small trucks the numbers are impressive.

small trucks the numbers are impressive.

Actually the Bentley Continental R has 600+ lb ft torque most of which is available at low rpm levels....Theres an old MT or C&D article a few years ago called the "Torque of the Town" and the Bentley won....Of course the Viper would rip it a new azzhole...The new Benz's have more tq then the Viper as well especially the Maybach...At over 6k lbs it needs all the torque it can get to get moving. Those Cummins Diesels put out some ignorant torque so I dont know if you can compare them to the Viper...

The fact that you gotta think this hard to come up with torque competition for the Viper tells you everything..Incredible car :smirk:
 

onerareviper

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The OEM Twin Turbo V12 Benz has a ton of torque down low.... Not sure about exact figures, but I remember it being impressive.

N/A the Viper is King, no doubt. Add mods, and the Viper is unbeatable in a true street car, no matter what/who you compare against (Low End Torque). Just comes down to cubic inches...
 
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Russ M

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Forgot to ask what mods if any the Viper had, along with any other vehicles tested. Sorry I couldn't gather this up in one post. My brain's a little sketchy today being Monday.

Nothing much just your basics.

Exhaust(stock headers)
Smooth tubes/K&N
No cats
Pulley

439.6hp/485torque

I forgot to look up some of the new twin turbo benz's but I bet even those wont make that type of torque at 700rpm. The Bently will for sure, that thing was rated at 690 torque or so. Gonna have to look up the dyno files and see if they ever tested one on their dyno.
 

Mopar

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Hanging out at my friends dyno shop we started to compare torque numbers from different sports cars modified or not, and the Vipers seem to come out on top.

If you are speaking of NEW cars, then I agree. BUT if you are including old school muscle, then I have yto say you need to do a little more research. Classic MOPARS (440-426 Hemi's and Max wedges) and Big Block Chevy have serious torque curves (if you can even call then that). All things considered I'd match a built BB Chevy or BB MOPAR against a V10 anyday.

BEST low torque champ is the 1970 455ci Buick GS Stage 1 w/ 510tq @ 2,500rpms.
 

Mopar

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N/A the Viper is King, no doubt. Add mods, and the Viper is unbeatable in a true street car, no matter what/who you compare against (Low End Torque). Just comes down to cubic inches...

I wouldn't go as far as saying a Viper unbeatable vs EVERY car on the road, that's just ludicris. There are a lot bigger engines on the street these days than a 488ci V10 or even a 510ci V10. 540ci Chevys are becoming very common and some are even running Big Cheif 632's on pump gas.

Here is a 1192rwhp (Pump Gas) BB Vette, this is the guy's DAILY DRIVER

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=340400

http://www.nonethewiser.net/542c2/Video/Run3.mpg
http://www.nonethewiser.net/542c2/Video/Run4.mpg

He's in the process of building a 632 at this time, he's looking for 2,000hp on pump gas w/ spray :eek: :

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=599541

You must be registered for see images attach
">Dyno Run
http://www.nonethewiser.net/542c2/Video/Run3.mpg
http://www.nonethewiser.net/542c2/Video/Run4.mpg

He's in the process of building a 632 at this time, he's looking for 2,000hp on pump gas w/ spray :eek: :

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=599541

You must be registered for see images attach
 

Torquemonster

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Hanging out at my friends dyno shop we started to compare torque numbers from different sports cars modified or not, and the Vipers seem to come out on top.

If you are speaking of NEW cars, then I agree. BUT if you are including old school muscle, then I have yto say you need to do a little more research. Classic MOPARS (440-426 Hemi's and Max wedges) and Big Block Chevy have serious torque curves (if you can even call then that). All things considered I'd match a built BB Chevy or BB MOPAR against a V10 anyday.

BEST low torque champ is the 1970 455ci Buick GS Stage 1 w/ 510tq @ 2,500rpms.

I beg to differ on the old motors - those were rated at SAE GROSS and their net actual figures would be less than the Viper. The Viper V10 would rip the arms off any of the old muscle car engines by a country mile stock for stock. I'm not including the race Hemi in that as they were a low volume engine - but they had no where near the bottom end of the V10.

I do agree that a "built" aftermarket big block will compete with the Viper - but if you want to compare apples with apples - the Viper will still be adding power adders while the muscle car engines will be throwing blocks and heading for race blocks. The Viper engine is a lot stronger than the old muscle car engines in stock form. The glory days of old have been replaced by better engines and if you want to beat the V10 you'll be needing the latest parts to build an engine that only looks like the old muscle car engines.

I'm a big fan of the 440 Mopar - but it is a fact that it'd take a hot one to take the Viper engine - no stock 6 bbl would even get close in the same car same gears etc - same for the street Hemi - sorry - no contest. The Viper rules all those old cars. The muscle car engines will need hot gear and blueprinting then they can line up head to head.
 

Mopar

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I beg to differ on the old motors - those were rated at SAE GROSS and their net actual figures would be less than the Viper.

True, a different rating system.

I'm not including the race Hemi in that as they were a low volume engine - but they had no where near the bottom end of the V10.

I agree, but woulnd't say all old muscle.



[/QUOTE]
I do agree that a "built" aftermarket big block will compete with the Viper - but if you want to compare apples with apples - the Viper will still be adding power adders while the muscle car engines will be throwing blocks and heading for race blocks. The Viper engine is a lot stronger than the old muscle car engines in stock form.

[/QUOTE]

The old school cars are more stout than most believe. Most of these engine are 4 bolt mains, forged crank, rods, and pistons. Are 2000 and up Vipers cast engines???? The engine were the birth of drag racing and these old motors hold MANY, MANY records.

The glory days of old have been replaced by better engines and if you want to beat the V10 you'll be needing the latest parts to build an engine that only looks like the old muscle car engines.

Well I plan on making in the neighborhood of 600hp on my stock long block 427 Vette. Only changes are cam, intake, carb, and exhaust. I'm looking for 11's on steet tires. I'll be running slicks when I add the juice where I should see 10's all on a stock long block. I will not beliving in fear of Vipers, believe me. :laugh: I hope to add a '98 GTS to my stable this time next year.

The muscle car engines will need hot gear and blueprinting then they can line up head to head.


Most muscle cars had the option of gears with most being 4.11's and even 4.56 gears. As far as blueprinting, it does nothing as far as power is concerned. It only comes into play when you blow an engine so you can rebuild the exacte duplicate of the motor.


:)
 

SnakeBitten

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Well I plan on making in the neighborhood of 600hp on my stock long block 427 Vette. Only changes are cam, intake, carb, and exhaust. I'm looking for 11's on steet tires. I'll be running slicks when I add the juice where I should see 10's all on a stock long block. I will not beliving in fear of Vipers, believe me. :laugh: I hope to add a '98 GTS to my stable this time next year.

:)

Vipers can do 11's out the box on street tires with much less than 600hp...Add juice to the Snake and 10's all day...As for not living in fear, dont believe that every Viper you run into is stock...Some of em n/a's will ****** you much less the forced induction/NOS ones.....

is that 600rwhp or crank you are aiming for...There are some Vipers with heads/cam and bolt-ons in the 580rwhp range I believe...Anyway you slice it both are great cars no matter when they were made...
 

Mopar

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Vipers can do 11's out the box on street tires with much less than 600hp...Add juice to the Snake and 10's all day...As for not living in fear, dont believe that every Viper you run into is stock...Some of em n/a's will ****** you much less the forced induction/NOS ones.....

is that 600rwhp or crank you are aiming for...There are some Vipers with heads/cam and bolt-ons in the 580rwhp range I believe...Anyway you slice it both are great cars no matter when they were made...

Make no mistake, there is always someone faster, I know that very well. There is a head and cam + N20 Viper in my neck of the woods running 10.0 (running a 727 auto, not street driven) that should give me a run for the money. As far as 11's on street tires I'm talking my 255 X 60X 15's, not quite apples to apples comared to the Viper's 335's. :laugh: I'm not niave to think I will beat EVERY Viper that crosses my path, but the majority I think I'll fair pretty well.

The 600hp n/a is at the crank ( I went a little conservative w/ the crank. I want power brakes), my heads will be changed next summer and I hope to see 600RWHP with a head and cam change. I'm trying to see what I can get out of it with a stock long block.

I love Big Blocks (GM and MOPAR) and my next purchase will be a GTS snake. :cool:
 

Torquemonster

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As far as blueprinting, it does nothing as far as power is concerned. It only comes into play when you blow an engine so you can rebuild the exacte duplicate of the motor.


:)

Mopar - I have no axe to grind... but guys like you I loved the most in the speed game. I always knew you'd be back to replace all the bits that I knew would break - I'd of course always tell my customers in advance - but only a few listened - and those ones went very fast and reliably.

Blue printing will add more hp than any other single bolt on to the old muscle car engine - but more important than that - your engine will actually get a chance to live at the rpms and power levels you are talking. If you have heard different - you've heard wrong. There's 50 hp in the bore prep alone without even looking at a multi angle valve job etc.

600hp 427 from bolt ons alone and no blueprinting or balance is BS on anything that could run power brakes - no offence - but what will happen is that you will bolt on your hot bits - go to the track and either ponder why the trap speeds are not what 600hp calculators told you they should be - or you'll throw a leg out of bed trying to reach them. You at least need to prep the rods, run ARP rob bolts, balance the engine and torque plate hone the bores - then you will have a chance. Ignore the friendly advice at your own risk.

If it does survive - congrats - there's always an exception, you will still be short of a genuine 600hp - but it'll feel so fast you'll swear it has got it and find excuses why it does not run 125mph on the 1/4 :rolleyes:

Your money - do what you want. I'd save my money and build a great BP and Bal engine with good heads, rods and pistons and rings etc - then you can go make the real power. There's 600hp over a beer, and there's 125mph+ down the 1/4 mile 600hp - which one do you want?

re relative strenghts of old vs new. Cast pistons in the later V10's mean nothing - they'll take serious power provided there is low boost and no detonation. They can be replaced - you wouldn't be running stock pistons/rods in a 800hp big block either. The 4 bolt mains etc are all fine - but you'll find blocks giving out around 600-800hp on all of them over time - except the Hemi which was very strong (and heavy). If the blocks held - the stock rods won't - the drag strips are covered in Chevy and Ford rod memories - every single strip there is has many such memories. They had poor rod stroke ratios or weak rods or both. Stock V10 bottom ends have seen 1000lb ft of torque and are driven daily - ask Tom at BTR. Outside the Hemi - I'd like to see you try that on any of the old stock bottom ends - blue-printed or not.

If you want to spank a stock Viper with a good driver on 255 tires - you'll need more than a few bolt ons. You'll also need diapers because once you get 600 real hp on those tires - you'll be in for some thrills. Good luck on your project.
 

Mopar

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Mopar - I have no axe to grind...

Great discussion ;) I grew up around engines, my father is an old drag racer and raced HEMI's, Max Wedges, and BB Chevy's. I agree 100% about the bottom end on the HEMI, the race HEMI's in particular. I do think it's possible to make 600 SAE hp out of a BBC with a cam, intake, and carb. There is a local racer at the track who holds the Super Stock record in his '69 L71 Vette. In this class he is limited to O.E.M. stock parts. This means he can run any cam, heads, intake, carb, tranny, and gears optioned for the 1969 Corvettes. He can only jet up the carb, advance the timing,run headers and port and polished the intake and heads. He has held this record for the past 5yrs (you can look this up in national dragster his car is a Red '69 Vert and his name is Sammy Pizzanlo (not sure of the spelling). I'm not sure of his hp/tq level but he is running 10.0-10.2 w/ 10.5 slicks. I was told by several racers so many people thought he was breaking the rules by running more displacement, different cam, etc that NHRA tore his engine down 3 tires and everything is legit.

Now mind you he's probably running a L88 cam (270 @ .050 duration) 11:5 ratio and at the limit with his heads and intake, but the fact remains he's stock and has the records to prove it.


On a side note....... I have a buddy I met about 10yrs ago from New Zealand who use to race cars there, he had a '57 Chevy. One of my closest friends and all around great guy :cool:
 

Torquemonster

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We're not all anti-american :) Actually most of us are pro.

I don't doubt the super stock guy - but you can rest assured that engine is not just bolted together it will be blueprinted and balanced to the max - as that is in the rules. The heads will be ported too - you can port as much as you want long as the chambers and ports come within the factory cc blueprint specs. They just are very careful where they remove material to get to the factory specs ;)

We sponsored a guy with a blown 440 Mopar. It ran 10's then wanted to go faster - by the time he hit 8"s block's wouldn't hold together. We got the iron block 440 to about 1300hp using grout in the water jackets and a block girdle - not streetable :) Went to an alumimun block and same car with new frame and combo 499 engine (stroker) now makes over double that and runs 6.6 at 212mph. NOt bad for a wedge head that weighs 2700lbs eh?
 

Mopar

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Went to an alumimun block and same car with new frame and combo 499 engine (stroker) now makes over double that and runs 6.6 at 212mph. NOt bad for a wedge head that weighs 2700lbs eh?

That's hauling some serious ***. :eek:
 

onerareviper

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Woooooooo.... Let me rephrase my original post. I was talking about 'true street cars'. Of course you can build a crazy race motor that makes CRAZY torque/HP that blows away the Viper V10. I'm talking about every day driveable, 50,000 mile plus durability, more than 10 miles per gallon, normal idle, and can run on 91-94 octane. I don't know of any motors that are putting out around 1000+ Flywheel HP that meet this criteria - Except SC and TT V10's. Maybe the bored/stroked 427 LS1/LS6 TT motor comes close, not sure.
 

Mopar

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Maybe the bored/stroked 427 LS1/LS6 TT motor comes close, not sure.

I do know the LPE Z06 850TT has a 2yr/24K mile warrenty and that's running 8.95 in the 1/4 getting 20mpg+. He sells the boost controller for $500 more but it voids the warrenty. LPE states w/ the boost contoller 1000hp is possible as well as low 8's high 7's in the 1/4. :cool:
 

onerareviper

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Yep. No doubt that LPE 427 TT is one bad motor. I think a comparable forced induction V10 make more HP/Torque. If memory serves, the Vettes 1/4 mile times were obtained using a custom built auto tranny, with the suspension being full-drag. I also think this package cost a fortune. After looking at the webpage, $50,000 and 725 Flywheel HP and 650 Torque. Ouch.... For around $10,000, the Sean Roe package is right there.... Not to mention Doug Levin/Heffner can produce mega-HP/Torque for $15-$30K. At these insane power levels, it all about hooking and tranny performance.

I think any of the above mentioned packages are at the top (or near top) of the food chain when it comes to true street cars. It amazing how far street performance has come in the past 10 years....
 

Torquemonster

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Yep. No doubt that LPE 427 TT is one bad motor. I think a comparable forced induction V10 make more HP/Torque. If memory serves, the Vettes 1/4 mile times were obtained using a custom built auto tranny, with the suspension being full-drag. I also think this package cost a fortune. After looking at the webpage, $50,000 and 725 Flywheel HP and 650 Torque. Ouch.... For around $10,000, the Sean Roe package is right there.... Not to mention Doug Levin/Heffner can produce mega-HP/Torque for $15-$30K. At these insane power levels, it all about hooking and tranny performance.

I think any of the above mentioned packages are at the top (or near top) of the food chain when it comes to true street cars. It amazing how far street performance has come in the past 10 years....

I agree. The V10s on steroids are the most powerful daily drivers that are not one offs.

If you want to go to one offs - Ray Barton will build you an all new aluminum 572 or 600+ cube EFI Hemi for around $30,000 that will make 850hp+ for daily driving - add the cost of twin turbos and more power than you could know what to do with - but not sure it would get 20+mpg like the boosted Viper gets. They should last ok though as they are very strong. Gale Banks has built some of the baddest twin turbo setups - 1800hp on pump gas - for $100,000 I'm sure he'd be happy to make you one... though stay tuned as he is apparently working on making a new TT Chev combo available. Suddenly the Viper looks like a bargain now eh? ;)
 

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