Lets pretend GM....

RTTTTed

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Link shows areticle that says they've been talking for a month, nothing else.

GM bought Saturn, Saab adn many other car manufacturers, if they merge it may change nothing except that GM would be the world's largest again - and have the world' fastest road car.

Ted
 

GBS

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Even if GM and Chrysler don't merge the Dodge Viper may be history. I don't think anyone really knows for sure at this point.
 

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Chrysler would sell the Viper line before merging with GM or, at the very least, kill it rather than letting it be called the "GM Viper".
 

GBS

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Chrysler would sell the Viper line before merging with GM or, at the very least, kill it rather than letting it be called the "GM Viper".

Cerberus Capital Management LP don't car about the Viper. Their going go do what ever they can to get the most money out of it.
 

ViperTony

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Cerberus Capital Management LP don't car about the Viper. Their going go do what ever they can to get the most money out of it.

Agreed which is why they won't sell it to GM, GM doesn't want it. They already have the Corvette/ZR1. No need to have to a competing model that generates little sales compared to their flagship car.
 

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Keep in mind that Bob Lutz is at GM. And he was the one that made the Viper come to reality. Back when he was over at Dodge, Chrysler. In My opinion, if GM merges with Chrylser. Theres a good chance that the Viper will still strive.
 

RTTTTed

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"Lets pretend GM.... actually merged with Chrysler...."

The very idea is a **********!

Ted
 

Joseph Houss

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Keep in mind that Bob Lutz is at GM. And he was the one that made the Viper come to reality. Back when he was over at Dodge, Chrysler. In My opinion, if GM merges with Chrylser. Theres a good chance that the Viper will still strive.

VERY Important fact!

Mr Lutz is truly a passionate car guy. He understands the Halo effect, and I'm sure would do anything he could to make "VIPER" appear on a Dodge product.... and that product would have to have GOBS of horsepower and torque!
 

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Link shows areticle that says they've been talking for a month, nothing else.

GM bought Saturn, Saab adn many other car manufacturers, if they merge it may change nothing except that GM would be the world's largest again - and have the world' fastest road car.

Ted

GM did not "buy" Saturn. They created it as a wholly owned subsidiary in 1985.
 

kennyhemi

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Link shows areticle that says they've been talking for a month, nothing else.

GM bought Saturn, Saab adn many other car manufacturers, if they merge it may change nothing except that GM would be the world's largest again - and have the world' fastest road car.

Ted

In the Detroit free press last week they wrote from an "unnamed" source that if the merger goes through GM would kill off Buick/Pontiac/GMC
then sell off Hummer which leaves them with Cadillac/Chevrolet/Dodge/Jeep
the good selling Chrysler 300 and Town and country mini van to Cadillac or roll them into Dodge. That's all they wrote about, so as far as the rest of the chrysler cars might/probably be history! I could see them keeping the viper as a ******** performance car and letting the corvette go back to a nice little middle of the pack high volume sports car..ie..chick car!:lmao:knowing Bob Lutz is the man that made the viper happen!
 

PatentLaw

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GM would kill off Dodge, take the Viper name and give it to their performance division, Pontiac, that has been looking for a sports car of their own.

GM will not kill off Buick, Pontiac and GMC. Kill off the competition.

Hummer, though, is a dead duck.
 

slaughterj

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Dodge seems like a more valuable trademark than Buick, Pontiac, or GMC, and seems likely to be retained over those others from that standpoint. Of course, there are other factors that may impact any decision, such as a balanced spread of vehicles across lines, etc.
 

Tom F&L GoR

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You can't be so selective to kill brands the consumers recognize. You have to think of car body lines, UAW groups, and efficient factories. The combination of GM and Chrysler would only save money if they get rid of a production facility or two and the workers inside. If they make Chevy, Buick, and Pontiac clones in the same place, they won't kill Buick and Pontiac because they can't rename the lost Buick and Pontiacs into Chevys. And they won't keep a factory open to only make 1/3 of the car lines.

Same for Dodge - they won't keep the 300 and toss the Charger and Challenger since they are all the same parts. It would be far less efficient to make only the 300. And who knows how many parts come from Daimler - it might be most efficient to kill them all and restyle a GM car to mimic a 300.

The sad part is that it seems unlikely GM would set up to build GM cars in a Chrysler plant or Chrysler cars in a GM plant. The result of the merger is that it won't be a merger, it will be an acquisition. Then there will be a bloody hacking off of limbs of business. And people.
 

kennyhemi

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GM would kill off Dodge, take the Viper name and give it to their performance division, Pontiac, that has been looking for a sports car of their own.

GM will not kill off Buick, Pontiac and GMC. Kill off the competition.

Hummer, though, is a dead duck.

DODGE outsells Buick, GMC and pontiac combined. That was the rest of the artical I left out. If you remeber a few years back it was a toss up on which divison was going to go between Pontiac/Buick and Olds. Olds got the AX. As far as GMC trucks dodge outsells GMC 2 to 1 those are the fact and that was the source on the inside was providing. Of course this will not happen over night.
 

chimazo

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DODGE outsells Buick, GMC and pontiac combined. That was the rest of the artical I left out. If you remeber a few years back it was a toss up on which divison was going to go between Pontiac/Buick and Olds. Olds got the AX. As far as GMC trucks dodge outsells GMC 2 to 1 those are the fact and that was the source on the inside was providing. Of course this will not happen over night.

Dodge outsold the combined Buick, Pontiac, and GMC brands by fewer than 9000 units, and for '06, sold less by over 50,000 units, so it's pretty much a crapshoot. It would make sense to ditch the Ram/Durango/Dakota because they have always been also-rans (with regard to sales), and who knows the point of having a stand-alone brand of GMC when they are strictly badge-engineered duplicates of Chevy trucks.:dunno:

From Detroit insider Peter DeLorenzo (Rants - Autoextremist.com ~ the bare-knuckled, unvarnished, high octane truth..., who's worked for BOTH GM and Chrysler,

"The Cerberus Fiasco.

First of all, as I’ve been warning for quite some time, the Cerberus “miracle” planned for the resurrection of Chrysler was a flat-out disaster waiting to happen. And unfortunately for the people at Chrysler, my prediction is unfolding as you read this. That Cerberus was completely out of their league and unencumbered with the first shred of knowledge or expertise required to turn around a flailing, ailing and deflating American automotive icon is a known fact.

And on top of that, the unbridled hubris that they brought to the table, which deluded them into thinking that they actually could venture into one of the most challenging businesses in the world - at exactly the most crucial juncture in American automotive history - and emerge with a nice big payday in a couple of years, is beyond comprehension.

That Cerberus assembled a “dream team” (at least in their estimation) consisting of Bob Nardelli - a man who was such an abject failure at Home Depot that the company has taken years to recover - and Jim Press, the architect of the modern miracle that is Toyota in the United States today, and “assumed” that they could just throw a switch and it would all be good, makes me question the sanity of the powers that be at Cerberus.

That the Cerberus brain trust was that out of touch and that detached from the reality of the situation is simply scary. There’s really no other word for it. Needless to say, the fact that things didn’t go swimmingly well for the Cerberus “dream team” was no surprise in the least. Assembling a team of alleged all-stars on paper doesn’t automatically translate into a winning performance, and Cerberus proved that timeless adage once again, but with dramatically painful consequences unique to its self-inflicted predicament.

To make matters worse, Chrysler’s public pronouncements have consisted of a particularly insidious form of overpromise, underdeliver bluster from the very beginning. Nardelli’s obnoxiously-tinged arrogance combined with Press’s incessant habit of lecturing the media about how super things are – as opposed to how truly horrific things actually were – wore thin months ago. And it seemed that the grimmer the sales numbers were for the domestic auto industry - with month after month of catastrophic results led by Chrysler’s shockingly dismal performance - the more the rhetoric by Nardelli and Press was ratcheted up. And the more Chrysler's credibility plummeted.

As a matter of fact as recently as two weeks ago, Chrysler was at it again, this time led by COO Tom LaSorda – a nice guy who has unfortunately been turned into the “Baghdad Bob” of the domestic auto industry by this Cerberus-orchestrated nightmare – extolling the virtues of Chrysler’s future electric vehicle program, a program that has little chance of happening in a future scenario of a Cerberus-planned exit strategy from the auto business.

The fact that this embarrassing smoke and mirrors, “it won’t be long now” public disinformation campaign has continued along unfettered - without even the whiff of reality emanating from Chrysler - has been absolutely reprehensible, in my estimation..."

..."When you have one company that has too many models, too many divisions and too many dealers, how could you possibly think that combining that company with another company that has too many models, too many divisions and too many dealers would be a good idea?"

"No, the real meat of the GM-Chrysler talks revolved around Cerberus wanting out – and wanting out right now – of Chrysler. And if everyone would step back and let that thought percolate for a minute, then there might, and let me say that word again – might – have been some logic to a GM-Chrysler deal. But that deal wouldn’t have been a merger. Instead it would have been a takeover, with GM relieving Cerberus of control of Chrysler.

The important thing to remember in all of this is that Cerberus is privately admitting for the first time – despite its tediously embarrassing pronouncements to the contrary – that they are done with the car business.

The Cerberus obsession with Chrysler was akin to the dog in the neighborhood that liked to chase cars all day, until one day that dog actually caught a car. But then after finally catching a car, the dog doesn’t have the first clue as to what to do next. Cerberus caught its “car” in the guise of Chrysler, and armed with zero cumulative knowledge about the business, it demonstrated its relentless cluelessness and utter futility at every turn.

If there had been any agreement at all between GM and Chrysler, it would have revolved around GM taking control over Chrysler’s assets in exchange for the rest of its stake in GMAC. That way Cerberus would walk away with 100 percent of GMAC and GM would be left to sort out what to do with Chrysler’s existing operations."
 

viperbilliam

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Sounds like the ugly truth. I thought GM acquiring Chrysler was a bad idea that didn't make any sense. I hope it doesn't happen. The only thing that makes sense here is Cerberus trying to get out.
 

GTSnake

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The talk around here is that in deed Cerbrus is looking to get out. They don't have the patience to stick it out for a few years. Which is what it takes for changes to take effect in the auto industry. Chrysler is still suffering today for what Daimler did a few years ago. It's going to take a good 3 years for things to actually happen. By that time GM will have absorbed Chrysler into its fold.

Cerberus is using GMAC to strongarm GM into taking Chrysler. It's not that GM wants Chrysler it's that Cerbrus is forcing GM to take Chrysler.

Cerbrus is living up to their name. A 3 Headed dog guarding the gates of hell. Never trust a 3 headed dog...:lmao:
 

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A quote from yesterday's WSJ: " While industry analysts have criticized the potential merger as being the equivalent of a Hail Mary, GM believes it can squeeze more than $10 billion in cost synergies from a deal, and get access to Chrysler's approximately $11 billion cash pile." Wonder how long it will take GM to burn through that $11 billion?
 

fastlane8

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The viper would finally get a balanced right & left bank block,instead of a lopsided one!:2tu:
 

GTSnake

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I think if the deal goes through we can pretty much say goodbye to Vipers. Especially since GM already has the Vette and there isn't anything in the works for the next gen Viper.
 

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Worries grow as GM-Chrysler talks gain momentum - Yahoo! News

Worries grow as GM-Chrysler talks gain momentum

By TOM KRISHER, AP Auto Writer Tom Krisher, Ap Auto Writer – Sat Oct 18, 4:13 pm ET


DETROIT – In the doomsday scenario raising anxiety around the Motor City, General Motors Corp. makes a deal for Chrysler LLC, keeps Jeep and the minivans, and vaporizes the rest of the company.
Tens of thousands of Chrysler's 66,409 employees lose their jobs as cash-desperate GM swiftly cuts redundant operations and sheds unprofitable models. Factories and dealerships are closed, and the lights go out at Chrysler's gleaming corporate headquarters campus in the northern suburb of Auburn Hills.
It's not something Andre Thibodeaux wants to think about. The general manager of Lelli's, an upscale steakhouse and Italian restaurant near Chrysler's 15-story tower, gets about half his lunch business from the automaker and related businesses.
The eatery, with roots in downtown Detroit and family owned for three generations, already has lost business as Chrysler and parts suppliers have downsized and people eat out less due to economic worries. The loss of Chrysler's corporate headquarters is almost unthinkable.
"I can't imagine moving the building or changing or selling or anything like that," said Thibodeaux. "Auburn Hills in general is built all around that building."
 

Kala

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The Case Against a GM-Chrysler Merger

Posted by: David Kiley on October 16
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General Motors executives and some Chrysler executives seem to want the two companies to merge. Though they are publicly mumm, privately reporters have gotten earfuls from the promoters boosting the idea of how successful it would be. I can’t buy it. Here’s why:
1. General Motors has been in a near constant state of restructuring since 1993. Think of that. Fifteen years of restructuring, write-downs, streamlining, plant closures, downsizing, buyouts, etc. It’s exhausting covering this company. From time to time, GM has seen a bit of daylight by earning some fleeting profit. But then the company falls prey to the next cyclical downturn, national event, etc. For the most part, the profits came when GM could crank out SUVs and pickups when gas prices were cheap, housing values were over-inflated, leading consumers to treat their homes like ATM machines. It didn’t take a lot of brains or savvy to make money this way. But these times, we think, are over.
It is the memory of those fleeting bursts of sunshine, I believe, that leads these GM executives to want to acquire Chrysler’s 10%-11% of the auto market, and get back to the broad restructuring it would take to rationalize the two companies. But if these same executives were much good at actual managing, why have they managed GM into the ground for fifteen years?
2. There is an idea that maybe the U.S. government will give the Big Three automakers an additional $25 billion in loans next year to survive the Recession. To get it, the automakers will need the cooperation of the next President and Rep. John Dingell, the automakers’ own Congressman from Detroit who is chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee. Just why would Dingell and either Obama or McCain support a strategy that would cut tens of thousands of jobs from an already economically fragile region of the country—Michigan, Wisconsin, Missouri, Indiana? By the way, the UAW hates this plan, and GM can’t do much without the union signing on.
3. The strategy seems to hinge on GM keeping Jeep, Chrysler’s minivan business, perhaps the Chrysler 300, Dodge Trucks, and punting the rest of the company and brands. Perhaps the Chinese automakers will want all or parts of Chrysler and Dodge cars? While I’m fairly sure the market would not miss Dodge Avengers and Aspens, or even the Dodge Viper or Chrysler PT Cruiser, I’d wonder if the exodus of customers from Dodge trucks wouldn’t out-run GM’s ability to restructure the whole company. “Why buy Chryslers if they are really GMs. If I wanted GM, I’d have bought a GM.”

4. The opportunity cost is frighteningly high. This is a time when innovation is needed more than ever to meet stricter fuel economy regulations. Chrysler doesn’t have any technology GM needs. Why doesn’t GM simply focus on restructuring GM, keep its focus on innovating, and take the additional loan money that is sure to be available next year. GM managers will spend 20-hour days trying to figure out how to shrink Chrysler fast enough for the whole mess pay off instead of making GM stronger and more innovative. It wants the $10 billon in cash Chrysler is reportedly sitting on? Take the Fed loans next year instead.
5. Could it be that GM is also thinking of this as a pre-emptive move? Keep Dodge Trucks and terrific minivans out of the hands of Nissan or the Chinese? Give me a break. GM management hasn’t earned the right to be that smug. There is nothing that would come from Chrysler, except minivans, that GM doesn’t already have. GM says it wants the Chrysler 300? For what? To sell as a Buick? Or in Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealerships as a Chrysler?

6. Why merge to save billions? Ford and GM saved hundreds of million by developing a six-speed transmission together. Both companies, I am told are deliriously happy with the outcome of the cooperation on what amounts to a commodity part. Analysts who know about these things say that GM and Ford, for example, could save billions upon billions more by entering into more of these global “co-opetition” arrangements developing engines and transmissions. Add other stuff like wiring harnesses, headliners, etc. that nobody views as a competitive advantage, and the savings are enormous.
7. Ford rebuffed GM in late summer about merger. Take that as a sign that maybe the idea stinks. Too, when was the last time you saw Toyota or Honda sniffing around to make an acquisition? Try, never. Ford executives say they are focused on integrating Ford globally, and making the company it has as efficient as possible. The sanity of this approach is crystal clear.
8. Just how many botched automaker mergers do you have to see before you get the message that these things don’t work very well. DaimlerChrysler? BMW-Rover? Ford’s buy of Jaguar and Land Rover? I know. I can hear it now. “We won’t make those mistakes.”
9. Good luck with the dealer consolidation. You are going to buy Chrysler, take the $10 billion it has in cash, and start paying Chrysler and GM dealers to go out of business? What kind of return-on-investment is that?
10. I’m sure there are reams of paper being generated that shows why this deal pencils out. Take all that paper and use it to start a fire. It’s going to be a cold winter.
 

RTTTTed

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Nightmares - you guys are giving me nightmares! If this becomes true (and I refuse to believe) then there'll soon be Hennessey Venom Vettes??? Fast Macedo vettes?

All this BS being true it's time to get Ford to start building GTs again. I truly can't imagine myself owning a vette. Everyone I've ever know throughout my life would laugh to see me in a vette. No one would laugh at me in a GT, and they don't laugh at my Viper.

Myself and other vette 'busters' always said that to drive a vette you'd have to buy a white silk shirt and a large diamond ring. I've got colored shirts and wear a Star Sapphire ring driving my Sapphire Viper = See the difference? Lol.

Actually I can't do white. That would disallow me checking oil, doing adjustments, polishing, etc.

Ted
 

GTSnake

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Well at least the upside is our cars will be instant collectors. More than it already is.

You think you have nightmares??? Be thankful you don't get a paycheck from Chrysler. What about the tens of thousands of Chrysler employees and the supply chain? :crazy2:
 

Tom F&L GoR

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I think if the deal goes through we can pretty much say goodbye to Vipers. Especially since GM already has the Vette and there isn't anything in the works for the next gen Viper.

According to the news, there isn't much in the works for a next Corvette, either. The C7 is delayed indefinitely.
 

99 R/T 10

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Yes Gentleman, for those that can't recognize it, this is an end of an era. We are seeing not only the automotive industry imploding, but our economy and possibly our country as a whole. The next couple of years are going to be bumpy and face changing. I don't "think" things are going to look or be the same. Time to batten down the hatches and hunker down....................................
 

RoadiJeff

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You think you have nightmares??? Be thankful you don't get a paycheck from Chrysler.

Umm...some of us were. I've been with the company 25 years and they gave us the bad news back in June that our division was being "idled" at the end of October.

I was one of the more fortunate ones to find a new job in my field very quickly - more quickly than I expected to, actually. The conflict was that I had to start my new job before my old job was to end in two more weeks.

I won't go into details but let's just say that it is possible to work two jobs at the same time and 16 hours per day. The dual income is fantastic and I've been doing it for over a month now. Getting 3 hours of sleep per night does take a bit of getting used to but I'm managing.

Anyway, see ya Chrysler. It's been a fun and mostly enjoyable 25 years.
 

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