Lets Settle This Once And For All

[black mamba1]

I am either going to TT or supercharge my Viper. I see horsepower packages ranging from 650 rwhp to 1200 rwhp. BUT high rwhp does not necessarily translate to a faster car in most situations.

There has to be a magic point where more hp is actually less in the area of better performance due to traction and drivability issues.

I want a Viper that is second to none in the 1/4 mile battles, and that will kick ass at the track. I dont want a 1600 hp car merely for bragging rights. I saw a thread where a guy owns both a Z06 w/ exhaust mods and w/ 502 rwhp and a 666 rwhp Viper. He says his Z06 will walk his Viper in a street fight due to heat soak, belt slippage, etc. I do not want that to happen to me.

So, what I am asking is what is the best hp for 1/4 mile fights, roll on street fights, and the track w/ PS2's and a 3:07 stock rear end. I simply do not think 1600 hp makes sense...but what is the best rwhp number? 650 rwhp? 700 rwhp? or 800 rwhp? or 1000 rwhp? I wil be making my mods in a few weeks...HELP!

 

[Nader]

I am sure you will hear plenty on this topic... If money is no object, I would say a twin turbo set up is best since it is more adjustable any more power under the curve throughout the rpm band.

 

[rtigert]

but what is the best rwhp number? 650 rwhp? 700 rwhp? or 800 rwhp? or 1000 rwhp? I wil be making my mods in a few weeks...HELP!

That is about the same as asking what is the best footwear? It depends on wether you want to go hiking, cycling, boating, or running. All have there niche. There is no perfect # for all applications. Example: My 500Hp 4 door sedan '08 M5 has crushed both a Z06 and a 980rwhp TT Ferrari from a dig.

 

[MikeR]

If I had the Money I would do a Very nice UGR TT setup. Beef up a few things,bottom end, rear end etc. You could adjust the boost controller to have 600 rwhp at the road courses and dial it upwards of 1000 rwp for the 1/4 mile races. I love the idea of a TT.
Ive talked to guys that bought a 70k Viper, dropped 60k at UGR and have one of the baddest cars on the planet. So for $130k you have a almost unbeatable car,one of a kind. And it will mop up ferraris, Lambo's, that cost the same money just for the car, no mods.

But I personally cant afford that, so I will be going the Paxton route. For basically 10K ,I'll have a 700 rwhp car that will be tons of fun to drive. My buddy ILLSMOQ put a Paxton on his an hasnt lost s street battle yet. Lately he hs had a few challenges,some didnt know he had a S/C. And he walks them hard. So you could have a car thats one of the faster on the streets.

It really comes down to money and where/how you want to drive. If it was a track only car, some would say to leave it N/A. Change the wheels and suspension. So it really comes down to you. Good luck, either way it will be wicked!!!

 

[Joseph Dell]

You've got mail!

1000+rwhp is pretty ******* a car as a whole.

Things that break:
Transmission(s), clutches, half shafts, driveshaft, differential. With a SC, the head units sometimes need to be replaced. And if you ever over-tighten a belt you could snap the snout off of a crank. And then there is the tune... the higher the HP, the more conservative the tune has to be OR the more 'attentive' you need to be to the car.

Basically, when you add HP to these cars, prepare to open your wallet.

And worse, if you ever race, you will break. Everybody does. It is a universal truth. you cannot avoid this.

my .02...

Joseph

 

[black mamba1]

Thanks guys. I see all the excitement about the 08 putting down 546 rwhp. While that is fascinating, there are guys in here putting down over 850 rwhp, but I RARELY here them talk about how fast their cars are on the track or in the 1/4 mile. My Viper is for street fights (I hope the VCA police dont delete me) and for the track. Even w/ my car the way it is I have never lost a battle yet, but I have not come across other Vipers or serious competition. I want to keep reliable and streetable...but very deadly!

 

[Disturbed]

TT all the way.

 

[Paul Hawker]

Both Twin Turbo and Supercharger applications will have traction and throttle control issues.

Best for 1/4 mile should be Twin Turbo. Gotta consider tires.

Best for street battles might be a single Paxton. Comes on strong and gets stronger with revs. Easy to drive normally.

Best for track is probably naturally aspirated.

 

[B767DRIVER]

Deleted by B767DRIVER

 

[black mamba1]

Both Twin Turbo and Supercharger applications will have traction and throttle control issues.

Best for 1/4 mile should be Twin Turbo. Gotta consider tires.

Best for street battles might be a single Paxton. Comes on strong and gets stronger with revs. Easy to drive normally.

Best for track is probably naturally aspirated.

This is very helpful! It seems TT is really the way to go for boost control, but at $30,000-40,000...hmmm I dunno.

What do u think of a Viper w/ say 525 rwhp naturally aspirated putting on a Paxton? Will this car pull better out of the hole than a Paxton on an otherwise stock car? I know it seems like an elementary question, but I am curious if the 120 or so hp needed to spin the Paxton somewhat nullifies the addtional na power.

 

[black mamba1]

If I had the Money I would do a Very nice UGR TT setup. Beef up a few things,bottom end, rear end etc. You could adjust the boost controller to have 600 rwhp at the road courses and dial it upwards of 1000 rwp for the 1/4 mile races. I love the idea of a TT.
Ive talked to guys that bought a 70k Viper, dropped 60k at UGR and have one of the baddest cars on the planet. So for $130k you have a almost unbeatable car,one of a kind. And it will mop up ferraris, Lambo's, that cost the same money just for the car, no mods.

But I personally cant afford that, so I will be going the Paxton route. For basically 10K ,I'll have a 700 rwhp car that will be tons of fun to drive. My buddy ILLSMOQ put a Paxton on his an hasnt lost s street battle yet. Lately he hs had a few challenges,some didnt know he had a S/C. And he walks them hard. So you could have a car thats one of the faster on the streets.

It really comes down to money and where/how you want to drive. If it was a track only car, some would say to leave it N/A. Change the wheels and suspension. So it really comes down to you. Good luck, either way it will be wicked!!!

Where can u buy and install a Paxton for 10k?

 

[Joseph Dell]

The paxton kit (case kit) can be had for 6250 in lots of places. UGR was installing the kit for 9k at one time. they have an up-sell deal where they give you an AEM and an enhanced fuel system for 15k.

Depending on where in the world you are, there are lots of tuners who will bolt on the kit for you. or you could do it in a weekend. The tuning is the harder part...


JD

 

[black mamba1]

The paxton kit (case kit) can be had for 6250 in lots of places. UGR was installing the kit for 9k at one time. they have an up-sell deal where they give you an AEM and an enhanced fuel system for 15k.

Depending on where in the world you are, there are lots of tuners who will bolt on the kit for you. or you could do it in a weekend. The tuning is the harder part...


JD

Yeah, we both know how hard or important I should say, getting the tune correct is. That is my biggest concern. I would want it bolted on and tuned and dynoed before I picked it up. How important or how much affect does the AEM fuel system have on performance and drivability?

 

[VIPER R]

I have found that in 1st and 2nd gear the Paxton is a draw back for several reasons, but when you hit 3rd sometimes you swear the other guy shut down.

 

[black mamba1]

I have found that in 1st and 2nd gear the Paxton is a draw back for several reasons, but when you hit 3rd sometimes you swear the other guy shut down.

Are you saying in first or second you are actually slower than stock w/ your Paxton? Is this due to traction problems?

 

[VIPER R]

Driving around town you do have parasitic loss, when going into boost you go through 1st and second so fast they're almost useless. I know this isn't a very technical answer but it is the biggest difference I felt after I installed the Paxton. Without it you bounce off the RPM limiter occasionally, with it you bounce off the limiter in 1st and 2nd , you have to pay much more attention. I installed a shift light to help me concentrate.

 

[adamlotus]

tt all the way imo

 

[MikeR]

Where can u buy and install a Paxton for 10k?

Like JD mentioned, you can get a Kit on superchargers4less.com or other like sites for around $6-7k. Then most shops will charge about $2k to install. Factor in a DLM tensioner and upgraded intercooler and all can be had for about $10k. My buddy ILLSOMQ will be installing mine, he has done one of the cleanest installs on his own. It looks factory, all wires and pumps are hidden in fender area. It came out very nice. Then I would just drive it down to DC Performance in L.A about a 4 hour drive and have them dyno tune it.

I know you got Chuck in your area, Im sure they could install for you.

 

[Joseph Dell]

A SC install is NOT that hard. In fact, if you call Paxton, they will usually send you the instructions manual in advance if you want to see what it takes. Even w/o the DLM tensioner set-up, you are looking at 650-700rwhp out of the box w/ virtually no tuning.

If you are a budget-minded individual, take a serious look at the paxton.

JD

 

[black mamba1]

A SC install is NOT that hard. In fact, if you call Paxton, they will usually send you the instructions manual in advance if you want to see what it takes. Even w/o the DLM tensioner set-up, you are looking at 650-700rwhp out of the box w/ virtually no tuning.

If you are a budget-minded individual, take a serious look at the paxton.

JD

Until CPE gets a TT system for a Gen 3 up and running it looks like a Paxton for me. The Roe is not online yet, and I cannot imagine trying to control all that power at 2000 rpm. Gen 2 Roe owners say predictable traction is almost impossible w/ the Roe in the first 3 gears.
But I cannot see paying 4x the cost of a Paxton for a TT when most of my power usage and driving will be in the 700-750 rwhp range. If that is not enough for me (and there are guys in here who say it wont be), then I will sell the Paxton and install a TT.

 

[plumcrazy]

good choice

i wish CPE did have the gen3 kit for ya. have you called him on it ?

 

[Kenneth Krieger]

Where did you get the information that it takes 120hp to turn the Paxton S/C? That's a CRAZY statement!!

 

[black mamba1]

Where did you get the information that it takes 120hp to turn the Paxton S/C? That's a CRAZY statement!!

1. Benefits of Turbocharging vs. Supercharging:

1. It takes 100-150 RWHP (depending on boost level) to spin the Paxton supercharger.

What does this mean to the end user?

a. With Supercharger, lower peak RWHP on stock fuel pump/Boost-a-Pump combination.
b. More stress crank snout and reciprocating assembly at a given RWHP compared to a turbo car.

So whatever the supercharger is putting to the wheels, add another 100-150 the engine has to make to spin the supercharger.

More power output = shorter engine life period

That is from Paolo Castenallo's CPE Turbo site.

 

[Joseph Dell]

Where did you get the information that it takes 120hp to turn the Paxton S/C? That's a CRAZY statement!!

Read Corkey Bell's "Supercharged". he quotes it there. there is a complex formula but 10-20hp per rib of a belt (plus a 3% loss through the belt) is what it takes to spin any supercharger.

JD

 

[black mamba1]

good choice

i wish CPE did have the gen3 kit for ya. have you called him on it ?

Yep. After he got thru cursing like 3 sailors (those who have talked to him know what I mean!) he told me he was going to start working on a Gen 3 in a few weeks. That was a few weeks ago, so I imagine he is up to his ass and elbows in his Gen 3 turbo project.

I will call him b4 I go to build to check on his progress.

 

[plumcrazy]

Where did you get the information that it takes 120hp to turn the Paxton S/C? That's a CRAZY statement!!

not crazy, pretty dang close to true. what do YOU think it is ???

 

[418viper]

Call Kevin at Underground Racing. He even offers a warranty...

 

[Bobpantax]

1.With the stock Paxton kit and stock runflats, you have to roll into the pedal at launch or you will go up in smoke. Depending on the temperature, some traction loss can sometimes occur from first to second and even from second to third. With pedal modulation and the proper shift points, the Viper with the stock Paxton is incredible. It is a matter of practice, practice, practice and making sure you heat up the tires first.

2. A stock Paxton kit properly installed and tuned is very reliable. It is also capable of being serviced by many tuners and some dealers. e.g. Woodhouse. I believe that there are relatively few tuners capable of properly servicing and maintaining a twin turbo setup - especially with an AEM controller like the Heffner setup which is widely regarded as the best TT setup. Go to his web site for more data.

3. An AEM controller, from what I understand, is a pretty complex piece that requires more than your typical tuner's skill level to program, etc. (I think that Joseph Dell knows quite a bit about the AEM and perhaps he will comment on it.)

4. From what you say about your budget, the Paxton kit appears to be what you can afford to do and, from a tried and true point of view, the Gen III stock Paxton kit is your best bang for the buck. I have had mine since I received the car and have driven Monsta a bit over 9000 miles. The only thing more I could ask for is four wheel drive so it launches like my 2008 Jeep SRT8. LQ.

 

[Joseph Dell]

To address Bob's points -

1 - Spot on.

2 - Spot on. We've all mentioned UGR, but they are just one of the many (and there are LOTS!). OR do it yourself. DLM has done more SC'd SRT's than anyone else. And his modifications are superior to other tuners IMHO. Not that others are bad, but his are the best.

3 - Spot on. and NOT emissions legal (not OBDII compliant). And also over-kill for most people. Even for a 1000rwhp application, the AEM is nice if you understand it but not a requirement.

4 - Spot on.

1.With the stock Paxton kit and stock runflats, you have to roll into the pedal at launch or you will go up in smoke. Depending on the temperature, some traction loss can sometimes occur from first to second and even from second to third. With pedal modulation and the proper shift points, the Viper with the stock Paxton is incredible. It is a matter of practice, practice, practice and making sure you heat up the tires first.

2. A stock Paxton kit properly installed and tuned is very reliable. It is also capable of being serviced by many tuners and some dealers. e.g. Woodhouse. I believe that there are relatively few tuners capable of properly servicing and maintaining a twin turbo setup - especially with an AEM controller like the Heffner setup which is widely regarded as the best TT setup. Go to his web site for more data.

3. An AEM controller, from what I understand, is a pretty complex piece that requires more than your typical tuner's skill level to program, etc. (I think that Joseph Dell knows quite a bit about the AEM and perhaps he will comment on it.)

4. From what you say about your budget, the Paxton kit appears to be what you can afford to do and, from a tried and true point of view, the Gen III stock Paxton kit is your best bang for the buck. I have had mine since I received the car and have driven Monsta a bit over 9000 miles. The only thing more I could ask for is four wheel drive so it launches like my 2008 Jeep SRT8. LQ.

 

[VIPER R]

A SC install is NOT that hard. In fact, if you call Paxton, they will usually send you the instructions manual in advance if you want to see what it takes. Even w/o the DLM tensioner set-up, you are looking at 650-700rwhp out of the box w/ virtually no tuning.

If you are a budget-minded individual, take a serious look at the paxton.

JD

Just go on the Paxton website to download the instruction manual