Doug Supercharged Vipers
Enthusiast
Ps. I'm short on time and have to run - I'll be back soon. PLEASE play nice! You are some of the best bunch I've ever had the privilege of knowing!
Lets Settle This Once And For All
- Thread starter black mamba1
- Start date
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black mamba1
Enthusiast
Doug...Happy Holidays and thanks for chiming in. You will be seeing me soon!Hello Bob,
FYI, our DLM front mount cooler weighs LESS, not more. The dry weight of our cooler is 3lbs and the stock one on your car weighs 6lbs.
As noted, our cooler does not "cure" heat soak, although it helps to eliminate elevating temperatures on & off boost. The byproduct of compressing air is heat, and heat causes detonation. The whole principal of utilizing an intercooler (or actually an aftercooler) ...
1) to remove heat from the boosted air resulting in cooler charge air temps, hence, denser air equates to MORE air being packed into the engine cylinders. The result, more power.
2) SAFER power, pump gas friendlier, more spark advance - again, more power.
Also, since we are on the subject for anyone interested
Which measurable boost pressure number will make power AFTER a few spirited boosted runs?
3 psi of cold air ?
- OR -
6 psi of hot air ?
Next:
Which measurable boost pressure involves the least amount of risk of breaking a cast piston during boosting?
7 psi of cold air ?
- OR -
7 psi of hot air ?
Thanks for the comments and input!Happy Holidays!
Best regards,
Doug
I noticed some of you are worried about books written ten years ago, look up the books by Sir Harry Ricardo. His research and facts about supercharging and water injection are 70 years old and more relevant than anything else since. The science behind water injection is way beyond just cooling the charge.
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black mamba1
Enthusiast
Thanks Plum, thats what I hear. I will be buying a house down Doug's way soon, and I plan to visit him w/ my Viper soon as well.Keith, doug is da man for s/c'ing, call him.
Doug, i'll see ya sunday....
"FYI, our DLM front mount cooler weighs LESS, not more. The dry weight of our cooler is 3lbs and the stock one on your car weighs 6lbs."
Hi Doug. How does your unit cause a greater cooling effect? More surface area? More water? greater water flow? I do not understand how it could weigh less, with the water in it, and provide greater cooling efficiency. Please explain.
Best,
Bob
Hi Doug. How does your unit cause a greater cooling effect? More surface area? More water? greater water flow? I do not understand how it could weigh less, with the water in it, and provide greater cooling efficiency. Please explain.
Best,
Bob
Water/**** will certainly give you more tuning latitude, but as stated earlier, and I might add the best description yet (Adding a layer) of potential complications. I'm not taking sides here, but just stating my personal experience. Water/**** is great for the drag racer or anyone else who is on top of his or her game. Eventually the system will fail, it could be a pump or foriegn object, short, forgetting to fill, etc. When it fails, game over.
A point I have experienced, yet have never heard anyone else speak of is corrosion. My use of water injection was with a roots type application, my application was also daily driven. Three months of use and upon blower dissasembly I noticed significant corrosion of the Aluminum parts which were in direct contact with the stream of water. Constantly adding water was really annoying as well. The more inefficient the design of the supercharger system as a whole, the greater the benefits of using the water injection. The gas laws (Pressure, Volume, Temperature) still apply today as they did in WWII.
A point I have experienced, yet have never heard anyone else speak of is corrosion. My use of water injection was with a roots type application, my application was also daily driven. Three months of use and upon blower dissasembly I noticed significant corrosion of the Aluminum parts which were in direct contact with the stream of water. Constantly adding water was really annoying as well. The more inefficient the design of the supercharger system as a whole, the greater the benefits of using the water injection. The gas laws (Pressure, Volume, Temperature) still apply today as they did in WWII.
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black mamba1
Enthusiast
Geez, I am in mortgages and real estate now..amazed my engineering degree keeps coming back into play..
Water moving thru a heat exchanger creates a much more significant cooling effect than air alone (conductive effect). The effect of 3 lbs on a 3400 lb car vs denser air is significant. The cooling effect of the water conduction provided by water cooling GREATLY outweighs the 3 lbs weight disadvantage of water cooling.
v10kingsnake
Viper Owner
Camfab, agreeing with most of what you wrote I need to clarify one of my points which seem to have been misconstrued. UGR does not tune with the methanol injection for all out aggresive "kill mode". It is used as a secondary method on top of the supplied paxton intercooler to keep IAT's COOL under full load boost scenarios. It is merely a side benefit that the cooler boost will prevent detonation, increase hp slightly, and prolong you motors life. If a setup such as mine were to ever fail from any of the situations you described I would experience some heat soak, nothing more. Chances are one running a UGR setup like mine that has a **** system fail may never even know it. I was even told by UGR that if you wanted that "warm and cozy" safe feeling for peace of mind you could toss some good fuel into the tank when it was at the track for that. He by no means thinks it is necessary.
My car will be tuning today at Kevins shop and I should see some numbers this afternoon.
. It will then be further driven on the road around Charlotte by both Kevin and KC with laptop in "lap" making the needed fine tune adjustments of REAL WORLD situations not displayed on a dynojet. The car is being picked up by Gary Almond a day or two after Christmas for the trip back up to me.HI-NOS-Viper
Enthusiast
v10kingsnake, congrats in getting your snake done by UGR, you for sure cant go wrong with them. Let us know the numbers and how it rides when you get it.
v10kingsnake
Viper Owner
I just got off the phone with Kevin and heard my baby for the first time in a while humming on the rollers. First pass coming soon.
Camfab, agreeing with most of what you wrote I need to clarify one of my points which seem to have been misconstrued. UGR does not tune with the methanol injection for all out aggresive "kill mode". It is used as a secondary method on top of the supplied paxton intercooler to keep IAT's COOL under full load boost scenarios. It is merely a side benefit that the cooler boost will prevent detonation, increase hp slightly, and prolong you motors life. If a setup such as mine were to ever fail from any of the situations you described I would experience some heat soak, nothing more. Chances are one running a UGR setup like mine that has a **** system fail may never even know it. I was even told by UGR that if you wanted that "warm and cozy" safe feeling for peace of mind you could toss some good fuel into the tank when it was at the track for that. He by no means thinks it is necessary.
My car will be tuning today at Kevins shop and I should see some numbers this afternoon.
That's probably the safest and best use of water/**** as an insurance policy. Most people will use it as a means of achieving the max tune. This is why I did'nt go with the Roe Blower on my car. I know myself, and with cast pistons I would have tested the limits of the tune. Happy Holiday's ...........Merry Christmas...........Happy New Year and enjoy the beast!
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black mamba1
Enthusiast
If I am at 600 rwhp n/a, and I put on Paxton...will my n/a gains suffer down low? In other words willl the parasitic drain of the Paxton at low rpm (120 hp to spin the Pax) nullify my n/a gains? Commons sense tells me it wont negate my n/a gains...but common sense does not necessarily apply when it comes to mods!
ILLSMOQ
Enthusiast
still confused...what parasitic drain down low
here is a graph before and just after the paxton went on.
I don't see any loss of power down low and now the car is around 700 at the wheels.....am I missing something here?
And that graph ILLSMOQ posted was I beleieve before his tuning and also before the DLM tensioner, so he had alot of belt slippage seeing, sometimes only 4lbs of boost.
The car flat out flies with a Paxton. There is not one spot on the graph were a N/A 500 rwhp car will be faster. The only problem will be traction.
The car flat out flies with a Paxton. There is not one spot on the graph were a N/A 500 rwhp car will be faster. The only problem will be traction.
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black mamba1
Enthusiast
Thanks guys! This info basically satisfies my and many other Viper owners concerns and questions, as we have touched on just about everything related to Paxtons here. I dont care what Chevy or Nissan or Ford puts out...a Viper w/ the right Paxton set up seems absolutely untouchable against 99.99% of the competition!
So does that mean you finally made your decision? Is it "settled once and for all"?
Did you have any luck with the tuning of your car? With your engine work, a paxton and a good tune i would think you would be over 700 at the wheels.
Did you have any luck with the tuning of your car? With your engine work, a paxton and a good tune i would think you would be over 700 at the wheels.
jimmy6383
Enthusiast
The 120 HP to turn the paxton....isn't that just saying the paxton puts more strain on the engine (equivalent to 120 HP) not subtracts 120 HP from the motor? That's how I took it anyways, but it seems some of you guys think it takes away from the engine.
BAD 2TB
Viper Owner
Looking at ILLSMOQ's dyno he has an increase of 30hp @ 3000RPM, @ 3500 +45hp, @4000 +60 hp, @4500 +75 hp, @5000 +95hp, @5500 +115hp and @5800 +130hp. Used 5800 as a shifting point. Using a 20% decrease for drivetrain +156hp total increase @ 5800rpm. Is this an average hp increase for a Paxton SC install.
Go read above post, he had belt slippage so only at times 4 lbs of boost, instead of the normal 7-8. After the DLM tensioner install,it is alot better. He hadnt had it tuned. He should be right around 700 rwhp now, which is about 200rwhp moe then when he had just headers and corsa.
And where do you get 20% drivetrain loss from?? Its about 12%
ILLSMOQ
Enthusiast
with a proper running paxton you can expect around a 200 rwhp increase....the power curve will be linear.
You are looking at a graph that is showing an out of the box paxton install with belt slippage. Belt slippage is a common occurance and can be corrected a few ways. I chose to go with the DLM tensoiner mod and it works great.
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black mamba1
Enthusiast
Chuck has my car now and is working on the tune w/ Sean Roe. Tuning the VEC 3 for my mods on a n/a car has turned out to be trickier than anyone thought. Chuck built the motor for eventual forced induction and the VEC 3 parameters for forced induction work like sh*t on an n/a car. It has been tricky, I keep throwing codes, a/f is not right, etc. But Chuck is working night and day w/ Sean Roe to get it right.
My reasoning for a Paxton is this: once my car is running like it should n/a then I will have the low end grunt and power that will rival a Roe blower at lower rpms. Now, I have been waiting over a year for the Roe, and I am not going to wait any longer. Once Chuck has my car correctly tuned I will put whatever supercharger is available for the Gen 3...my betting hand says bet on the Paxton. If the Roe is available I will go with it, if not I will go w/ Paxton. I plan to do use Doug Levins after cooler, tensioner, and I will also use the water-**** injection. I will aim for around 700-750 rwhp, that should be more than enough for me!
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Building up the engine for forced induction is a good idea, especially beefing up low end grunt where the paxton lacks as compared to a Roe blower. But if Roe does come out with a blower, isnt that working against your entire argument regarding too much power/torque to put to the wheels in 1st and 2nd gear? Sounds like in your application, Paxton would be the best option overall.
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black mamba1
Enthusiast
You are 100% correct. I am leaning towards the Roe simply b/c it has more power under the curve for most of the power band. If you look at some of the Paxton graphs in the forum, you see modest power increases, from 30-60 rwhp increase until you get past 5000 rpm. That is why a 650 ish rwhp Roe will walk a 750 rwhp Paxton in the 1/4 mile. That is also why practically every manufacturer goes w/ a screw blower instead of centrifugal (new ZR1, Ford GT, etc). Now, that being said, if I go w/ Roe I will go w/ a conservative boost level and I will also have to go w/ stickier tires than my PS2's. I think the Roe is the closest you can get to TT for less than 30k. Now, again, that being said...this also all depends on how Sean Roe and Tator get my n/a car to perform rwhp-wise. If they get close to 600 rwhp I will go Paxton due to traction and seeing that I will already have enough low end grunt. If they get substantially lower I will probably go Roe, if it is available. If they get substantially lower and the Roe is still not available, I will drive the car off a cliff!
Honestly, there are many variables to consider. Where everything stands today I will go Paxton.
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black mamba1
Enthusiast
If I go w/ Paxton I will deff take the car to Doug Levin, especially since his shop is not too far where some of my offices are in Florida. And there is a 90% chance I will go Paxton b/c other options are not available or too expensive/and overkill.
There are pros and cons to each forced induction system available for Gen 3's. I am not a big fan of most of the hp increase on the Paxton all coming after 5000 rpm or so. I do like the better traction you get with Paxton. However, IF you can get the car to stick, a Roe will kick a similar powered Paxton car's ass in a dog fight up to about 145 mph or so.
For where I am today, the Paxton is best. While much of the power comes on at 5000 rpm, the power curve is smooth and rather linear, that is advantageous as well.
i also dont like the idea of being a first run on the roe's.....id wait for the second batch to come out before i spent my cash there.
not to mention you will need a different hood right ? EDIT: you already do have the hood. and it looked amazing !
not to mention you will need a different hood right ? EDIT: you already do have the hood. and it looked amazing !
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black mamba1
Enthusiast
I am with you on the Roe first run to a certain degree. I guess its kinda like buying a Gen 4...amazing performance, but these are the first run of them...I think it is worth the risk. Also, Sean has been building his system for years. He did not do a complete new system, just a redesign of the same for Gen3 programming and space availability. Yes, there is risk. But Sean is a stand up guy, if it is a unfixable disaster I am sure I hope) he will honor the warranty and take it back!
