New Whiners Forum

[gtsviper]

I think we should have a separate discussion board for the people who insist on forcing those of us interested in the new VGX to read their chronic complaints and personal criticism about the new car.

If you don't like the new Viper you have several choices...keep your Gen I/II cars and don't buy a new VGX or buy another car and impress the next owner's club with your constructive opinions. You must eventually accept the fact however that the next Viper will look the way it looks and your constant whining and complaints will not change that for at least a few years.

We know that the squeaky wheels get the grease but if you grease them a few times and they still squeak... they are probably defective and need replacement.

Come on guys, your opinions have been heard, read, reviewed (ad nauseum). Let's move on and give DC a chance to make the cars and let us see what they can do.

 

[Frank 03SRT]

I believe there is an advantage in complaining about the looks of the SRT-10. It isn't just a few on this board that don't like it. However, on the other hand, all the polls say it is a big success, so DC will probably listen.

But if the faithful few that really care about this design continue to voice their concerns, maybe, just maybe DC will bring out the coupe sooner, and make it look like it should.

Even though the constant complaining gets on the nerves of some of us, it probably is a good thing.

 

[Venom Lover]

I have a better idea. Since those who prefer SRT-10 styling seem to be in the minority, maybe they should be the ones to get shipped off to a separate forum. Didn't you know, this is the SRT and VGX whiners only forum?

 

[Mike Brunton]

I don't mind people saying they don't like it... hell, they can say they HATE the car and would NEVER buy one,or that they thing it's heinously ugly and a stab in the groin of all current Viper owners - that's ok too. What DOES bother me is when we have folks who insist on insulting the car - in other words, folks who are ragging on the car just to rag on it, without offering anything constructive or without voicing genuine dislike of the design - you know, the guys that say "that thing is uglier than Roseanne's love child with Janet Reno!". That bothers me. I don't care if someone else likes or dislikes how my car looks - but I'm going to think someone is a dink-head if I hear them on here just making fun of the car, and then see them at an event.

Am I going to want to hang out with someone that jokes about my car or compares it to a miata, etc? Or perhaps I'd just stick to hanging out with other SRT guys? Or maybe I'd show the guy ragging on the car what it can do in the performance department and then they'd shut up? None of these options are good for the club - they just breed cliques and segregate us and thats not a good thing.

You guys might have noticed that the current Viper club is mainly comprised of late model RT/10's and GTS's. The 92's are sort of the "fathers" of the current Vipers. Well, at 1,500 SRT's a year and no more RT's or GTS's, it won't be long until this club becomes SRT dominant - just like how the Vette clubs are mostly centered around C5's, and C4's are sort of the old dogs. You guys might not agree, but the SRT - like it or not - is the future of this club and of the Viper. It's perfectly Ok not to like it, but to ostracize it and cause it (and it's owners) to be unwelcome ain't gonna make for a friendly VCA where everyone feels welcome.

And I'm NOT talking about the guys who replied to this thread who probably think I'm talking about them

.. I'm talking about twinks like GTS Bruce that just like to ridicule the SRT

 

[Venom Lover]

Gosh, you guys sound awfully defensive.

Hey, Mike, are you saying that, even though I'm behaving badly, you'll still hang out with me at VOI 7 (if I decide to drop the $1.4K plus shipping and handling for Dot and me)?

Also, if you look at corvetteforum.com, you'll find that the C4 forums today contain only 10-30% fewer topics and posts than the C5 forums. Not bad for a car that went out of production 6 years ago. Perhaps it's true that at local clubs, more C5 guys show up than C4 guys. I wouldn't know. Anyway, for sure I don't think you'll find viperclub.org is SRT-dominant any time in the near future. If the CF is any indication, it may take 4-5 years just to break even in terms of Gen II vs. Gen III participation. And even so, you know human nature....There are going to be nay-sayers to the bitter end. Just savor the fact that conflict makes for more interesting threads. If we all sat here all day long stroking each other's egos, it would get boring pretty quickly. And I don't think people are saying bad things about the SRT just to stir things up. I think they are expressing how they honestly feel.

In my case, I'm far from trying to "ostracize" those on the SRT order list. After all, I'm one of them. And I am hoping that I like the car in black!

 

[Mike Brunton]

Mike,

I'll still hang out with you, because if you can afford to buy 2 Vipers, then you can certainly afford to buy me a lot of beer. That's my reasoning anyways

As I said, I'm not talking about guys like you, and Jon, and so on, but rather the ones that seem intent on being outright rude to folks who bought the SRT. They seem to have some sort of personal offense at the SRT, and I don't understand why. I can understand the dislike, I can understand the dissatisfaction, but I can't understand why someone would call me a "wimp" for buying one, or claim that it's not a "real" Viper.

Actually I *do* understand why some of these guys take the SRT as a personal shot... because they like the ego boost of having the latest and greatest (and fastest), but if they don't like the SRT then they won't have any of that. Surprisingly enough, the folks who seem to be actually INTO racing don't seem to mind the SRT as much as the folks who like their performance keyboard-style.

Just my .02... but what do I know?

 

[Eddie N]

it does seem as if most current viper owners are dissappointed with the new SRT10 and have decided not to purchase one.. do you think that if the car flops badly that dodge will stop viper production all together? that would be BAD.

- eddie -

 

[Nsane1]

Mike makes a good point (and he's cool to hang out with too). I personally don't like the RT. I think I have stated this once on this board, ever.

How quickly would people hate me if every time I came on I wrote "Geez, only an idiot would be driving an RT, what a stupid wanna-be-top that thing has, and those ******** 3 spoke wheels, only a clown would wear a clown shoe".

How constructive is this? Even if I DID feel this way, its darn rude, and insulting to those owners who DID (make the mistake) buy them. I think its a mistake that DC is gonna see all this whining and change the design of the car, or change their plans on building a coupe, because of it, but I could be wrong there

Would I rather have a GT40? Well heck yeah, if Ford sent me a cert and said I could buy it for 500 over invoice, and have it in my garage this year? Well sure, but then reality sets in.

Thanks Mike.

 

[King GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frank 01GTS:
I believe there is an advantage in complaining about the looks of the SRT-10. It isn't just a few on this board that don't like it. However, on the other hand, all the polls say it is a big success, so DC will probably listen.


But if the faithful few that really care about this design continue to voice their concerns, maybe, just maybe DC will bring out the coupe sooner, and make it look like it should.


Even though the constant complaining gets on the nerves of some of us, it probably is a good thing.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I for one, agree with Frank 01GTS!

 

[I Ben Therbefor]

"Design-wise, it's a mixed bag," said Roy Sjoberg. "I think you will get a different customer with that styling, more of a Corvette customer than the original Viper owner. It is certainly true to the Viper general looks, and is a very pleasent evolution; but it is not bodacious, which the original Viper was."
Dodge Viper
by Daniel F Carney
pg 147

"more of a Corvette customer than the original Viper owner"

 

[BigsViper]

Here comes Eyore with another "Bored" layout suggestion... Maybe it's time to implement my icon suggestion from the "vette vs. Viper" threads onto the Great "SRT Debate" threads...

How about an Icon showing the outrageous Viper GTS/RT10 duke-ing it out with the mild mannered (but powerful) SRT. Imagine the two cars with boxing gloves on... you could post this instead of spending all that time rehashing these tired old debates and defenses. Clicking on the icon would take you back in the archives to the beginning of this area on the forum (November '01?) and you could read (or copy/paste) all these arguments without using up all the bandwidth.

In reality, I think all the bantering is entertaining to those who engage in it, whether they admit it or not (or else they wouldn't spend the time posting). If people were really tired of reading these posts and threads then they wouldn't!

 

[MichaelP]

It really would be too bad if the sales of the VGX are so low that the Viper is no longer produced.

However it would be very nice if Dodge listened to the MANY people who think it looks like **** and change the design.

To all you who are buying one don't listen to the people (including me) who think your new car is ugly(which it is unless you like a Lebaron mixed with a Corvette mixed with a Viper). Your opinion is the only one that matters.

BTW Mike Brunton drive your GTS a lot more than your VGX you may not get any more stares but at least the stares you get, will be from people who have a smile on their faces and not a frown.

 

[BigsViper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MichaelP:
BTW Mike Brunton drive your GTS a lot more than your VGX....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Eerrrr,,,, I'm pretty sure that's not an option.....

(had to look twice, thought this was Mod Pierce piling on my Eyore take....)

 

[MichaelP]

Bigs thanks for pointing that out. If I had know he crashed it that would be a REALLY ****** post.

In that case Mike just drive your new car and enjoy it.

 

[Mike Brunton]

MichaelP,

I think if I still had my GTS it would get aALOT more frowns than the SRT in it's current condition

MarkO,

I didn't mean to imply you were one of the folks I was talking about. There was a guy on here who said SRT buyers were whimps or something to that effect, and our ever-eloquent Viper whipping boy GTS Bruce is often lacking in tact with his shots at the SRT.

I can understand folks not liking it - I actually really like it the more I see it - it's grown on me tremendously. I remember when I was young(er), my jaw would drop when I saw a Viper. After owning one for 3 years, I guess that somewhat wore off. I love how the GTS looks, but I didn't sit in my garage drooling over it every night either. The excitement of the GTS has worn off on me - to the point where I got aggravated when EVERY SINGLE TIME someone had to talk to me at a gas station and ask the same dumb questions (you know the ones). Maybe the SRT isn't *as* aggressive looking - I personally think it's pretty close to the GTS and definitely more aggressive than the RT/10. We'll see what the long-term outlook is as the years go by. Either the SRT is a big hit overall and a minority of people just don't like it (even though they may be a majority in this group), or the car's sales taper off sharply after just a year or two, and everyone realizes it was a lookalike design.

One thing's for sure - and maybe this is a reason some folks are unhappy - Dodge chose performance and a new buying group over the traditional GTS guys. They are obviously positioning the new car to a different market of folks which has a relatively small intersection with this group (apparently). I can see folks being disgruntled about that - but you have to understand there are a LOT of folks who really *really* like the SRT too!

 

[FrankBarba]

gtsvipe... not whining just my opinion. this new snake just doesn't HAVE IT. Sorry when i saw the viper for the first time in 1993 i got stiff. in 1996 when i saw the first coupe i was rock hard, when i saw the vgx coupe 2 years ago it was ****** i couldn't get enough. now that i've seen the SRT/10 i'm limp.

 

[Venom Lover]

Sorry, Mike, but I don't get the point of view that somehow aggressive looks and performance are mutually exclusive. Based on the styling studies for the SRT in the fall '01 Viper Quarterly, it's clear that more aggressive styling alternatives were considered.

With the exception of top speed, the current "styled in a wind tunnel" design would have suffered minimal performance degradation in going to more aggressive styling. So there must have been a strong desire by DC to make the styling more mainstream to attract some other market. That or an inordinate amount of emphasis was placed on top speed as the primary performance parameter.

Either way, you can see why most current Viper owners would be displeased. Many bought the car for aggressive styling. Many bought the car for outrageous performance, but of those, few have top speed as their most important requirement.

 

[Joseph Houss]

Humble opinion:

The SRT-10 demand will increase dramatically (even within our highly respected group of naysayers) as the true performance numbers are revealed.

This car was designed with ONE goal in mind. ULTIMATE performance, and as was discussed previously, that is why the FIRST concept car of the next generation Viper was the GTS/R. Our friends at Team Viper agreed that if they design the Track Car first, with a "field of dreams" list of performance criteria, then they could build the ultimate, never to be paralleled production car. Round fenders, "speaker grills", and other cosmetic touches, would just add to aerodynamic issues, and as little as these issues might be, you must consider that it's the little things, in combination, that make a car a winner! Think about weight factors... if you want to drop even 50 pounds off a car, you end up shaving, and removing a multitude of modest weight objects to move you in the right direction.

There is no doubt in my mind, that Mr Fernandez and the engineers at Team Viper are obsessed with racing, performance and speed! Just ask anyone where John F is on any weekend....

RACING! (and one heluva driver if I might add).

...was that Sterling Marlin in Arizona racing the SRT against an F14? Not necessary! We've got Herb Helbig as well!

In my opinion, there isn't one spec in Team Viper's DNA that spells bean counter! These guys build what THEY want to race! They build what they know will be bulletproof on the track, what will fly past ANY of their competition!

Gen 1's and Gen 2's are absolutely beautiful cars... and heck, at the time the original Viper was introduced, who else had the cojones to produce a 400 Horsepower "weather resistant" roadster? The combination of style, and unbelievable power, convinced all of us to write the check, and now our focus, on this website, at VOI's and through conversations, surveys and discussions has been convincingly weighted towards performance, with just a few of the topics on this site (until now!) discussing car shows, cosmetic niceties, and seat covers. Team Viper knows what we want! And through the years, Team Viper has learned more about reaping more power, more performance and more speed from our cars. But evolution sometimes demands change, and in my humble opinion.....

Change is good!

C'mon John, is the placard at the NY Auto Show our next tease? Are the SRT's hitting 525 lb/ft of torque? Keep the facts coming! We want to know more!

 

[Venom Lover]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph Houss:
But evolution sometimes demands change, and in my humble opinion.....

Change is good!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and unfortunately for Dodge, one change they may see is a bunch of previously-loyal Viper owners buying GT-40's....

I'm still not getting the point of view that somehow styling had to be sacrificed to make the car a good performer. Does anyone think that Ford didn't design the GT-40 for performance? Yet it's a stunning car....

Sorry to be a pain.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Venom,

You are absolutely right - the idea that looks had to be sacrificed for performance is a line. The truth is that they are trying to attract a different market... as I was told "performance is one thing, and first-year sales will be great, but DC needs to SELL these cars for 4, 5, 6, or more years". Yes, they made it more mainstream looking... yes, they sacrificed *some* of the outragrous look.

How much of the look was changed for performance reasons, and how much was changed for sales reasons? We could debate that one forever I guess, and we'll never really know. I'll concede that it had something to do with marketing if you concede that it also had something to do with performance

The REAL answer to the question? Well, the mighty GTS that we all know and love isn't exactly selling like hotcakes. The design is only in it's 7th year and it's been in sales trouble for a good 2+ years now. Since they are only making one car going forward, and they are going to make more of them than they made RT's and GTS's combined, how do they plan to sell all of them? Well, by making it appeal to a wider market. And they do that by making it a little more refined (deal pedal), alot better performing (waiting to see the #'s still), and more visually appealing to the masses.

We all know that's the truth in the styling change. It's not going to make a difference if everyone whines about it, because DC knows that alot of us arent' buyers for the new car - and I'm sure they've done their research on the folks who ARE going to be the new car buyers. I hear they are making some changes for a more aggressive look - which is good. But what we've seen so far is 95% of what we're going to get.

The only thing that remains is for the folks with certs, or who are eligible to buy a car decide if they will take it or not. The folks whining about it (and I don't mean you Mike), sound to me like the kids who ran to their mom when things didn't go their way growing up. "But MOOOOOM, I wanna go play!". "Sorry kid, you can't", "But that's not FAIR". "life aint' fair kid... deal with it".

for those that don't like the SRT? They're gonna have to deal with it somehow. If they deal with it by ragging on the car and the owners, it won't be too long before the new guys say "screw you" and just do their own thing. And I bet that suits some of the traditional Viper owners just fine - which is sad.

 

[Joseph Houss]

"If they deal with it by ragging on the car and the owners, it won't be too long before the new guys say "screw you" and just do their own thing. And I bet that suits some of the traditional Viper owners just fine - which is sad."


No way! WE ARE ONE! No dividing lines here!

The ULTIMATE SRT owners club has existed for years, and we're all members! www.srtclub.com !

 

[gtsviper]

HOW THE VIPER WAS BORN

"The early drawings, very close to the final Viper, were (to tell the whole truth) initially disappointing to me. My personal vision had been of a car much closer to the original Cobra, though somewhat modernized. But Tom Gale and a tiny handful of designers had (wisely, as it turns out) decided instead to embark on an all-new look, an interpretation of the character and feel, the aesthetic impact, of the Cobra, but bearing no direct Cobra-derived visual cues.

Over the years, I have learned not to react too quickly when shocked by a design proposal. The very best designs, the freshest and most audacious, are often hard for a nondesigner to integrate. Appreciating them takes 'soak time'.

"So I deliberately gave myself soak time with the Viper. Later, when I saw it as a full-size clay model, I was overwhelmed by its impact."

These are not my words but a description of the Viper's birth by none other than Bob Lutz. (see Guts, Pages 50-51)

I would imagine that many of the whiners have not even seen the SRT in person much less had time to let the design "soak".
In the unlikely event they have, I respect their opinion not to like the car, not to buy the car but for cryin out loud quit complaining. As Lutz would demand, get on the team and support the program. If you doubt he would say that, re-read his book.

 

[Frank 03SRT]

I for one am pleased that the car isn't the looker it once was, because I really DON'T LIKE the attention. A little is fine, but too much is too much for me. And I'll bet a lot of current owners feel the same. And a lot of potential owners feel the same and the possible reason for low sales of the current model. A lot of folks just don't like that much attention. The SRT is great looking to me, and I will be able to hide a bit since it ain't so striking.

I got my first GTS because I wanted to go back to my childhood and relive the Charger RT era, with the great power and good looks. When I first decided to buy the GTS, it's was a bit too much for me, because of the attention I knew it would get. Now, I can have the goodies with the SRT, but not as much gawking. I won't be as afraid of taking it on a big trip, leaving it in a parking lot, and worrying constantly about the attention, and the resulting damage that might bring.

I'll bet there are a lot of other out there like me.

 

[Venom Lover]

Mike,

I know you and I have already had this discussion many times over....But....

Yes, I will concede that the look of the SRT is based in part on improving performance. I'll also concede that part of the objective was to address a broader market. With respect to the former, I'm on record saying I would sacrifice a few hundredths of Cd, or even half a tenth of Cd, to have more outrageous styling, since I'll never see more than 150 mph in the vehicle anyway, and I don't care about bragging rights.

With respect to the issue of broader market, everyone keeps saying that the object is to tap into the Corvette market, for one. But when I did a poll on the Corvette Forum, only about 25% of the people said they preferred the SRT styling to the current Gen II styling. So, let's not pretend that there is anything close to "broad appeal" of the SRT in the Vette community. Of course, on a base of 40,000 units sold per year, 25% is a decent number. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that 25% of the people would plop down nearly $80K MSRP to buy one. That's nearly double the C5 price. If DC had come in at $60K MSRP, I can see eroding Vette market share significantly, but not at $80K.

Anyway, time will tell how SRT sales go. If Ford makes the GT-40, it'll be interesting to see how the sales compare. Clearly Ford didn't feel obliged to dumb down the styling of their supercar.

gtsviper,
I did exactly what you said: I gave the SRT the benefit of the doubt until I saw it in the flesh at the LA Auto Show. Unfortunately, that only solidified my opinion on the blandness of its styling. In contrast, the first time I saw a blue GTS, I was awestruck and remain so to this day. No rinse cycle ("soaking time") required. That being said, I still intend to take delivery of mine in the hope that (1) the performance numbers are outrageous, and (2) the car looks more evil in black.

Jon,
Roger that. I am not on the Viper team because for any reason other than that it's the most outrageous sports car on the market in my price range today. I'm happy to join the GT-40 team if the situation changes in the future. I certainly hope Dodge isn't counting on the fact that we owe them any allegiance.

 

[GTS Dean]

I for one think that pictures alone are enough to clearly convey the styling of the car. I don't need to make a trip to see it in person.

I have said many times that there are several styling cues that I don't particularly like about the VGX - whether it be the GTS/R showcar or the SRT. The main screwup being the side air extractor. I realize that it is aerodynamically efficient, but the car completely lost its character when the fool who designed it managed to convince the styling managers that it was the right thing to do.

It stinks, it stinks, and it stinks.

Do I have one ordered? Yes. Will I keep it? Time will tell.

 

[jwwiii]

The Whiners bug the ##@&* out of me.

If looks are all that matters to folks, then what a plastic bunch we have! If power, handling, better convenience in operation, is a problem for many, perhaps they should re-evaluate why they drive the Viper.

When I drive the new beast, I really only care about impressing myself, and getting away from the things that really bug me. The Viper is my "escape pod", and fortunately, I don't feel the need to impress anyone.

If looks are the problem for the whiners, then I would imagine that the problems of SRT ownership go much deeper into other insecurities that should be discussed in therapy with a professional.

I would think that the people who can afford a new Viper would be more concerned with the performance and quality than getting gawked at. Really, haven't most in this economic bracket outgrown the showboating in favor of quality, performance, and value?

Don't mean to %$#$* anybody off, but this styling thing in view of the performance sounds like a serious case of insecurity to me. Whiners, buy a kit car with lots of fins and make a real statement!

Please, take it somewhere else!

Jim

 

[MichaelP]

You tell em Jim.

By the way if you don't care what others think of you, ytou shouldn't let the whinners piss the &#$($&#* out of you.

 

[Venom Lover]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jwwiii:

If looks are the problem for the whiners, then I would imagine that the problems of SRT ownership go much deeper into other insecurities that should be discussed in therapy with a professional.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, Jim! You're saying anyone who has a problem with the looks of the SRT needs psychotherapy? That's pretty harsh. Also, I sense I lot of insecurity in the tone of your post....Tell us about your relationship with your mother.... J/K

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Jon, you forgot me in that statement! And I DID NOT BUY A VIPER BECAUSE OF LOOKS, but rather for what the Viper embodied, a big block, NO FRILLS, no CONVENIENCE, back to BASIC sport car. At the time, there was nothing in the world close to what Viper offered,and I had to have one.

Now We are being promised something that will pale the original and current model in performance, and that is all MANY of us need to know to be fans.

Someone called the early Viper owners "fathers", and too that I say we are the ones most likely to appreciate the SRT/10, since the notion of supreme performance rules all other factors.

I would venture to say that many of the "whiners" are those who own later more refined Viper's, you know the one's who could not HANDLE DRIVING an original because it "doesn't have air" or "because it leaks"?

I still get more of a thrill pushing my foot on the gas peddle than I do looking at my Viper. For those of you who see it differently may I suggest that you attempt pushing the gas pedal on you Viper instead of starring at it!

 

[Venom Lover]

Sorry, Steve, I'm still not buying into the "performance rules all" theory. Brunton hit it on the head. DC dumbed down the looks of the SRT to appeal to a different market. Look at the design studies; more interesting alternatives were considered.

Does .02 (or whatever small) difference in Cd make a hill of beans difference on a road course or at a drag strip? Not to 99% of Viper owners. Does bragging rights that the car will go 200+ mph matter? Not to me. I'll never even see anything above 150. You anti-whiners are complaining that we whiners don't have our priorities straight. I submit to you that bragging rights on a top speed that virtually no one will ever see is an even more twisted priority than great styling.

Let me say it again. Great styling is not mutually exclusive with great performance. In the 1/4 mile, on the skid pad, in braking tests, on a road course, how much difference in performance would we see if the car had been styled more exotically? Virtually none. The only significant hit would be on the top end, and that comes at about 3% top speed per .02 Cd, if I'm doing my physics correctly. I.e., if the SRT comes in at Cd = 0.29 as currently styled, there would've been a 3% hit on top speed if the Cd was instead 0.31. If top speed was 210 mph at Cd = 0.29, it would drop to around 203 mph at Cd = 0.31. In the world of my priorities, I say BFD.

Oh, and for the record, I love looking at my Viper. I also love driving it. I also love racing it at the drag strip and on road courses. And I never turn the AC on, complain about NGR, complain about squeaking brakes, etc. And I lived with and loved a Lotus that leaked every imaginable fluid for years. So don't try to fit me into your stereotype of whiners.

As much as the SRT aficionados don't like hearing people whine about SRT styling, we whiners don't like being told we're wimps or insane because we don't love the car's styling.

As a matter of fact, I would argue that the crowd that drove DC to bland SRT styling is exactly the cupholder, AC-on crowd. Don't blame it on us whiners!!!

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Venom Lover on 04-04-2002 at 02:44 PM</font>