No more videos guys :(

ceieio

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joe117 - sadly, you have the right of it. While we flop around and rail at each other and the board, we overlook the real issue.

The real issue is our legal system and how easily one can be tied into a lawsuit as a potential source of income.

No matter how far fetched the claim is, you have to spend real money to prove the claim to be stupid and get yourself out of the mess.

The cases take months if not years to get to trial and you are paying big time until you can get out (if you can). You will not get that money back just because you are not part of the lawsuit... you just lost it all without even losing an judgement.
 

Daffy Duck Viper

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Do you guys remember the big night club fire that took place a couple of months ago? Well, the people who owned the club also owned a Shell gas station, they had an poster in the gas station window and handed out flyers for the club at the station.
Who do you think was recently added to the list of people who are being sued?.......That's right, SHELL OIL!

Whenever there is a big deal liability case, the lawyers look hard for folks with deep pockets that they can add to the target list. This is real, it's not just some old guy crap.

Here's the scenario. A Viper driver is street racing. While racing, some guy in a tour bus pulls out in front of him. It's not the Vipers fault but the bus is hit, catches fire, and 40 people are killed in the fire.
The Viper driver is dead, he had insurance with a max of half a million. The bus company had coverage of 10 million. How many people are going to sue? Probably over 100.

This is a BIG case. A law firm takes it and wants to get 10 million for each person who had been wronged. They can't get it from the Viper or the bus. Do you think that they will look for ways to tie DC to this?
Do you think that they are smart enough to find the VCA website?
Well guys, how much more real does it sound now?
It's not a question of anyones rights, it's liability and in this day and age in the USA that's the truth.

The "viper alley crew" is not invoking privelidge arguments. This is the same liberal banter used by tree-huggers to take away the rights of citizens over and over again. We are just pointing out the obvious. That this is again an unwarranted, example of overmmoderation without representation of the memberships requests. Moreover the liability issue is flawed. What happens if someone reads about aftermarket exhausts on this website and goes have them added. Then sues the website to have it remvoed becuase it violated emissions laws? What happens if the same happened with a heads cam package? What happens if someone installs a nitrous system after reading about it here and didnt install a blow down tube and died of N02 poisoning? What happens if someone used non-DOT approved Teamtech harnesses and died in an accident? What happens IF IF IF IF IF? Common sense and logic people. But of course the liberals here are void of that concept...as usual.

Both arguably good points. If people were SENSIBLE, and could REASON properly, this would NOT be an issue!
So, I guess this leaves us at a standstill, and having to go elsewhere to see such videos. That's a pain in the @$$. *sigh*

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Moundir

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guys check out the alley, the videos will be there shortly :)
 

joe117

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I've got nothing against them. I wish I had a fast enough link to get them.
Perhaps I'll just try it and see how long it takes.
 

vipah

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You are greatly mistaken. If that were truly the case Dodge would not produce a 500HP car. Heck, the lawsuits would be flying right now for every speeding ticket or accident.

As for the video, they are not on the VCA servers. They are links. I see nothing that ties the two together as long as the site clearly articulates that the views expressed in the message boards are those of the author and do not in any way reflect those of the VCA.... Without that there is more liability right now on most everything written here, especially since it is now clear that these board DO represent the views of the VCS and DC!

The case would likely be thrown out before ever going to trial. Kind of like suing McDonald's because your kid is fat. Sure you can do it, but you won't win.
 

vipah

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Something along these lines are needed:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Unfortunate, but necessary in my opinion. Without this I think it is implied that the VCA and DC that the messages reflect their views. Especially since they are taking steps on certain things.
 

Bugeater

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I guess I am emotionally harmed because TobyT is emotionally harmed by this thread. Therefore I am going to sue TobyT, the board, and since someone mentioned Shell Oil, them too. And Koby Bryant.
 
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SUN RA KAT

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Seems like old times around here. I guess there will be several new Viper boards starting up again and many of the most entertaining members leaving to go to them.

Oh, well.

BTW - I'm sending you a message to put me on the video list.

BTW#2 - Management is not happy with my references to Yellow Vipers being faster, so I will not post any more jokes about Yellow Vipers being faster.

Here.
 

Y2K5SRT

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Sad Sad, the board has made it's move and it doesn't care. :mad:

Au contraire! Rest assured that as one small part of the board, I really DO care. And also rest assured that this issue pains me as much as anyone on here. Unfortunately, my feelings (and I am obviously not alone) are not the issue. The issue is very clear cut: Street racing is illegal, dangerous, and often results in serious injury, property damage, and even death. Many times those killed are innocent bystanders. Examples:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/16/ctv.drag.race.trial/

http://da.co.la.ca.us/mr/061003c.htm

http://www.cbc.ca/news/features/streetracing030205.html

http://da.co.la.ca.us/mr/100202b.htm

http://www.journalism.ubc.ca/thunderbird/2001-02/april/streetracing.html

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/cobb/0503/26streetrace.html

http://www.courttv.com/trials/dragrace/051303_ctv.html

Of course I could cite hundreds of other cases, but this is all old news. It is interesting that San Diego had 17 street racing deaths in the last year and Toronto 18 deaths in the past year. That is per city. Expand that nationwide and I suspect the statistics are staggering. The problem is also that while most of us are experienced drivers with level heads, we rarely know the background of the other driver. Street races are almost always impromptu. Last night I was out in the Viper and some guy wanted to race me - in his Jeep. We both laughed, goosed it a hair all in jest, and danged if that goofball didn't almost sideswipe me! You simply don't know.

Now, let me say with absolute certainty that I enjoy the videos, especially the bike races, etc. I would also add that many of us (note "us" and not "you") have engaged in the occasional street race. That doesn't make it any less illegal. As I was getting blasted (so much for shooting the messenger) in the other thread (which I did not close), a comment was made that the Smith & Wesson analogy was absurd. Extreme? Yes. Absurd? No. While some folks can argue "what about the illegal elimination of catalytic converters - why isn't that deleted?", the simple fact is that street racing often results in death. Catalytic converters do not - unless you count the ones that fall on your head. Again, liability is the issue.

While it pains me to no end, there is a very real issue of litigation. While we can play keyboard warriors all day long and argue this to death (which it appears some prefer to do), the fact is that neither the VCA or its sponsors want to risk a potential lawsuit by "endorsing" street racing. Do you really blame them? Rather than face the potential lawsuits, months of legal defense, etc., it is easier simply to discourage those posts on the site. While some prefer to come in here and just rant about their rights, this is NOT a site for "unlimited free speech" no matter what you think. It is a moderated site and always has been.

And Smokin, I have already put in a plug for your site, so kindly quit bashing me. After all, you don't want people to think you still visit here, do you? ;)

Chris

PS. And one note on those that are choosing not to post their opposing views (and that sent the original e-mails): When faced with an angry mob, would you loudly proclaim "It was me! It was me!" Probably not... Thus it was left to me to defend a position that I don't necessarily agree with 100%.
 

Vic

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Joe117, I once heard that the practice of law is not so much about stautes and rules, but only by what you can get a judge to go along with, and a jury to beleive, on any given day. This would support the official VCA position to disallow illegal racing videos, since it could be argued in a court of law, that since DC didn't pull the video posts, they have culpability and complicity in any accidents that arise from VCA members getting into speed related accidents in their Vipers.

Still, there are liability protections, in the disclaimers on every major corporations' website. If I were a lawyer for DC, I would argue that the official stated policy of DC is to discourage street racing, and any actions taken by VCA members cannot be attributible to DC. Wouldn't it be perposterous to suggest that every Mercedes or Dodge that has an accident while speeding incurs liability for DC? Of course, no one thinks speeders incur liability on the manufacturer of the car they are driving!

Even if the manufacturer sponsers racing, it still doesn't equate to creating an environment that condones illegal street racing.

So if a VCA member posts a video of illegal racing, and the board has a disclaimer that the actions, views, and opinions expressed by the memebers are their own, and do not represent the policy of DC, wouldn't that be enough to argure against DC's liability?

I dunno, I'm not a lawyer. Just posing some questions-

But what started all this, anyhow? Somebody got a hair up?
 

SmokinV10

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If you guys dont like what happened here. If you feel that your voice was not heard....go to www . viper alley . com. Take out the spaces. Take your technical questions, your b s. your viewpoints, your smack....everything pack up and leave. Thats just my opinion tho...
 

MHQC

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hmmmm. Don't know quite what to think about this. Balancing what seems to be potential lawsuit(s) with providing service to members...

The point about having the VCA mentioned in a car accident etc...seems to be the concern. But every magazine cover, MT car shootouts, TV commercial, movies has either a car burning out or speeding etc...

It is like saying "I am going to sue Nintendo because my kid thought he was Superman and pulled a Peter Pan off the roof"! Common sense prevails. I am not overly opinionated on this board, but I will say I am dissapointed there will be no videos. This seems to have been a quick decision. Perhaps a thread stating that videos might have to be revoked would have gone over better, maybe it would have lead to other solutions.

As a possible solution, could there not be a forum dedicated ONLY to videos, to which there could by a disclaimer with some legal terms denying any possible liability etc...?
 
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Moundir

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Vic you said it brother, a disclaimer is all that is needed, but who cares anymore. I have my videos up somewhere else. I want to thank everyone for the emails and support. You guys should really head out to the alley to see the drag run with the GT2. Have a nice day all, I'm done with this topic!!
 

NCVCA

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I am one of the people (maybe the only?) that was concerned about posts of kill vids. but it wasn't for many of the reasons that have come up. Sorry I'm late raising my hand here. I haven't been hiding. I've been working and getting ready for a track event in two weeks so my board watching is down to 2 times a day.

Anyway, I wrote a brilliant post and then in equally brilliant fashion did an ALT4 to close an IM window and closed the browser DOH! so here I am again.

Geesh. Let me try to remember what I said. I prefaced all of these with 'in my opinion' as to not tick anyone off too badly. This is my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.... so:

1. Not viewing videos on the board doesn't remove the liability issues. If it were 'objectionable' material that would work. I do support this argument for movies and tv shows for example.

2. The Club isn't being wimpy or controlled by pansies because of the no kill or street racing posts/video policy. If they were wimps they would allow anyone to post anything - even if it threatened the ability of the club to operate - which this does. Since the litigation risk is real the club is doing what it has to (not the easy thing as witnessed by this thread) - just the opposite of being whimpy.

3. The 'powers that be' are tasked with many responsibilities and acheiving all of them simultaneously is impossible. One goal is to insure everyone enjoys the club as much as possible (which includes use of the board). Another goal is protecting the club against risks (like lawsuits). Sometimes they run head on into one another (no pun intended) and a policy has to be made. They chose (and I think chose wisely) to not allow such posts so the club and/or it's sponsors and/or some of it's members don't get sued - or at least minimize the liklihood.

4. The other consideration is that posting of racing videos encourages others to post a more exciting video. This naturally requires that the video be filmed which ultimately means people are looking for opportunities to street race so they can post the video. A lawyer would declare that this per se means that the club supports street racing. lawyers. Now before you yell at your computer screen I realize that's over simplified, but the end result is more illegal activity (I didn't make the laws - even the good ones).

I think we all like the competition (I know I do - especially when the Viper wins) but there is a time and place for it and each of our State Governments has determined public streets aren't the place. The club has to operate within the reality of the laws and risk factors that exist - whether we agree with, like, or condone those laws and risk factors doesn't really matter.

Fortunately, if you want to make the extra effort you 'take it to the track' and go at it a lot longer (better competition) in a safer environment. If you haven't you should because most of the people I race with don't even consider a go on the street anymore. It just can't come close to road course events.

A lot of people seem upset about the policy. I hate that a policy has to exist at all as responsible adults should be able to regulate themselves. In my HUMBLE opinion the policy serves to minimize the risk of the club or board or both being shut down.

I know I would be IRATE to surf to www.viperclub.org to read a new splash page that read:

DUE TO A LAWSUIT BROUGHT BY THE FAMILY OF JOE SMITH, FATHER OF BILLY SMITH WHO WAS TRAGICALLY RUN OVER BY A VIPER WHILE STREET RACING, THE VCA HAS COMPLIED WITH A CEASE AND DESIST ORDER AS IT RELATES TO THE PROMOTION OF STREET RACING AND PERMANTLY SHUT DOWN THE MESSAGE BOARD.

Now that would blow.

I think it's a reletively small price to pay, albeit having to pay a price at all for the litigation 'risk' is maddening.
 

joe117

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OK kids, how much of your money would you bet that DC wouldn't get taken to court?
That's the way you have to think about this. If they went to court it would cost them millions even if they won.

Picture yourself as the DC ad exec who had a part in supporting the VCA website, at a board meeting, the morning after DC get's served papers.

How long do you think your job would last?

I can't believe you guys don't see this as a real liability issue.
Warnings and disclaimers wouldn't protect DC from any jury decision. There isn't any rule that says a disclaimer means anything in a civil case.

Can you hear the lawyer, while he's showing the video, saying, "ladies and gentelmen of the jury, they even call these kill videos"?

It's business plain and simple. DC isn't going to risk anything so you can show a video of a street race.

What's wrong with you guys? Grow up.
 

KenH

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I think Chris, Joe117 and a few others have made some good points. It is just like ****** harassment. If someone raises the issue (true or not), management has no option other than taking immediate action or else they and the company they represent can be held legally liable. Someone has put the VCA in that position and I do not see where they have any choice by to react in this fashion, whether they personally agree with it or not.

I enjoy the videos and certainly wouldn't complain about them, but I myself was wondering why there wasn't a crackdown sooner since we all know that there is a strict board policy against supporting street racing/kill stories.

Per Smokin's comments, there are other sites willing to take the risk that a large corporation won't/can't, so all is not lost, just a different venue. As far as getting good technical info there though.... THAT may be a stretch :) .

--- Ken
 
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SUN RA KAT

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Has the movie company that made The Fast And The Furious and 2 Fast 2 Furious been sued yet? Almost all the street racing around where I live is by ricer type cars or Camaro/Firebirds and Mustangs. Not Vipers.

I've watched some of the now banned videos and I had absolutely no desire to do street racing after watching them. Actually, I had no desire to street race before watching them, either.
 

vipah

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Joe,

You have lost your grip on reality.

Recall one of the latest Dodge advertisements that show a Viper doing a roll maneuver over the other vehicles. Do you think there will be a law suit because the Viper should be able to fly?? What about all those other car ads with some clearly spirited driving?

Disclaimers work. That is why good lawyers use them appropriately. This site needs one.

Who is the VCA lawyer. Maybe they could post the rationale for this, and for NOT having a disclaimer. Does the VCA have a lawyer, or are all us lawyer wannabes taking into it into our own hands.

Can anyone point to a legal case that was brought against a website due to information an individual put on a message board? I can't find one. Plenty of examples of the individual getting in trouble.

By the actions of the "powers that be" it can easily be demonstrated that DC and the VCA condone what is posted here.
 

Viperzilla

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I agree with Ken, there are good and valid points made. But I only voiced my opinion that I would like for the vids (as long as they display a safe, mature, and responsible behavior with no risk to other motorists) to stay. I'm not demanding that this MUST be the case. I'm just repeating with what the little voice in my head is telling me, just something that I'd like to see. Yes, there are privately run sites, but this site is already big enough that it keeps me busy and entertained throughout my day. I rarely have enough time in most days to venture off to another site. I like to help out with and learn about the Viper facts and technicals, that's also part of the reason why I stay here on the official board. I don't think you can get all the gatherings/meetings info on the alley either (correct me if I'm wrong).
 

KenH

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Vipah has a good point. I tend to think in terms of corporate law, but it would be very interesting to know if there is any actual precedence of an internet forum being held legally liable. Can anyone come up with one?

--- Ken
 

joe117

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Have you ever seen all the disclaimers on *******?
Did they get taken into court? Yes!
Did it cost them millions, probably.

And nobody is going to take VCA to court on this, they don't have enough to go after.
DC would be the target.
Go back and read the scenario I gave for the case that could happen.
 

sanco-gts

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Man, one of the first things I look for on this site is pictures or videos. Especially the racing videos. I really enjoy them. But, being a business owner I can understand the liabilty issue. It's unfortunate that that's what this great country has come to, being afraid of doing or saying anything that might offend someone. There are probably some lawyers on this site but I don't care, this country is in serious need of TORT REFORM!!

(So what are you going to do, sue me!)
 

J DAWG

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Mike, I enjoyed the videos. I thought the price for free speech was already paid. Oh well, see ya at the alley.
 

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