Birvini
Enthusiast
So, why not use the disclaimer idea? I see it in little print in almost every car commercial.
No more videos guys :(
- Thread starter Moundir
- Start date
cycloneGTS
Enthusiast
Well...I guess if they are banning videos that contain "illegal" actions (I think that was the key word in the lengthy reply), why stop there. They should stop letting people post about their speeding tickets as well. After all...it is still a moving traffic violation. If we get pulled over, we COULD say that we read about speeding all the time at VCA.org. My opinion is that this seems like last year revisited. Needless sensorship!
P.S. Although I have never street raced my car, I really liked the videos.
P.S. Although I have never street raced my car, I really liked the videos.
ceieio
Enthusiast
Ford ran a commercial based upon Charles Bronson's movie Mr. Majestik back in the early '70's that showed a ford pickup doing a jump (from the movie). Well Billy-Bob took his F250 out and tried it with predictable results. He sued Ford AND WON! It was right after that incident that the car companies started putting "professional driver on a closed course" in small print on all of their ads.
Bizare but true.
Still missing the point. Street racing is considered dangerous and very risky. And there is currently quite a bit of public and political pressure to stop it. That level of visibility justs adds to the tort potential.
The other "illegal" comments stated such as clear lights, catless exhaust, speeding, etc." are of considerably lesser risk. I do not think it is the legality that warrants restriction, but the inherent danger in the activity itself. With that danger being more toward others than to the racer. There are enough examples to show the danger inherent in street racing.
It does seem like last year revisited. Is this an annual test of the moderators ability to moderate?
The other "illegal" comments stated such as clear lights, catless exhaust, speeding, etc." are of considerably lesser risk. I do not think it is the legality that warrants restriction, but the inherent danger in the activity itself. With that danger being more toward others than to the racer. There are enough examples to show the danger inherent in street racing.
It does seem like last year revisited. Is this an annual test of the moderators ability to moderate?
vipah
Enthusiast
That is why you need to have the right disclaimer. Even then you will be sued, but your chances of winning are greatly improved (or at least the awards are more limited).
We live in a crazy society where people can sue for anything, and will. All a business person can do is their best to mitigate risk while providing the best product (or service) to the customer base.
We live in a crazy society where people can sue for anything, and will. All a business person can do is their best to mitigate risk while providing the best product (or service) to the customer base.
ceieio
Enthusiast
In most states, and including Kalifornia it is legal to remove cats etc. "for off road use". If you want to mod up your car for the track you can. It may no longer be street legal and you may be denied the privilege of operating it on a public street (legally) but you can legally make the mods.
Ain't law fun?
SmokinV10
Enthusiast
Why even discuss this here anymore. The way I see it, the members wants have hit the recycle bin. Are "they" listening? The answer to me is OBVIOUS. Gratuitous, patronizing nods, followed by reasons deemed insulting to anyone with a bit of mental intelligence, topped with a "dont call us, we'll call you's" and a pat on the back. Go where the pastures are green, there is freedom, you have a voice, where people have a bit of wit....or hang out and support a site that has shown you how much they "care" about their members wants and needs. The choice is yours. From where I stand, its mighty clear.
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
[quote
In most states, and including Kalifornia it is legal to remove cats etc. "for off road use". If you want to mod up your car for the track you can. It may no longer be street legal and you may be denied the privilege of operating it on a public street (legally) but you can legally make the mods.
Ain't law fun?
[/QUOTE]
You mean one of those er boomerang cats? The ones that keep coming back just before inspection?
In most states, and including Kalifornia it is legal to remove cats etc. "for off road use". If you want to mod up your car for the track you can. It may no longer be street legal and you may be denied the privilege of operating it on a public street (legally) but you can legally make the mods.
Ain't law fun?
[/QUOTE]
You mean one of those er boomerang cats? The ones that keep coming back just before inspection?
joe117
Enthusiast
Vipah,
About your questions,
"As far as the nightclub thing goes, it would be interesting to see who has the liability insurance on that particular gas station. Was this attached to the suite since the owner of the station was the same owner as the club? I bet it was, or every single place where a poster was posted would be named."
The victims lawyers are going after SHELL OIL, get it?
SHELL OIL didn't own the station, they didn't own the club.
The gas station wasn't part of the club building.
The only involvement of SHELL OIL was the shell sign on the pole. The club owners also owned the gas station and did some advertizing from the station.
So now SHELL OIL is involved. Just because they are a good target.
These are the FACTS, this already happened. This happens all the time.
THE LAWYERS GO AFTER DEEP POCKETS EVEN THOUGH THEIR CONNECTION TO THE CASE IS WEAK.
Don't you watch the news? You don't know that this is common practice?
You guys who are calling me names seem to think that I'm against you, I'm not. I just see what you don't seem to be able to see. And that is...
DC is not going to risk anything for your "right" to post "kill" videos.
I can understand why you don't like it. I can't understand why you can't see the facts of this situation.
About your questions,
"As far as the nightclub thing goes, it would be interesting to see who has the liability insurance on that particular gas station. Was this attached to the suite since the owner of the station was the same owner as the club? I bet it was, or every single place where a poster was posted would be named."
The victims lawyers are going after SHELL OIL, get it?
SHELL OIL didn't own the station, they didn't own the club.
The gas station wasn't part of the club building.
The only involvement of SHELL OIL was the shell sign on the pole. The club owners also owned the gas station and did some advertizing from the station.
So now SHELL OIL is involved. Just because they are a good target.
These are the FACTS, this already happened. This happens all the time.
THE LAWYERS GO AFTER DEEP POCKETS EVEN THOUGH THEIR CONNECTION TO THE CASE IS WEAK.
Don't you watch the news? You don't know that this is common practice?
You guys who are calling me names seem to think that I'm against you, I'm not. I just see what you don't seem to be able to see. And that is...
DC is not going to risk anything for your "right" to post "kill" videos.
I can understand why you don't like it. I can't understand why you can't see the facts of this situation.
Frank 03SRT
Enthusiast
They choose not to see the facts, or see the facts and have other motives. Nobody should be that dense. It appears it's last year all over again, ignited or fueled by a few that did it last year, the result of which got a lot of visitors "going over" to that/those sites, which more or less fizzled after a few months. That's sure what it looks like to me.
Smokin, is anyone who disagrees with your position without the right of speaking their opinion? Is anyone with a different perspective less intelligent? I find your comments patronizing. I am not with the board or in any way connected. Just an observer with a different opinion than you. And then you call my opinions "insulting to anyone with a bit of mental intelligence." Free speech is a two way street. If you only accept your opinion, and are unable to listen to others opinions, why do you expect others to listen to yours? I have only stated that the display of street racing videos places the VCA and DC at excessive risk or exposure for civil action.
As a member of the VCA I vote to protect those interests above the interests of those that prefer them. In the same way as a year ago when I was on the side of clean language and family channel level pictures. For those that have ventured to the other sites you will not find an appropriate venue for family environments. That may be entertaining for some, but so is an adult bookstore. I just choose not to visit adult bookstores.
One man's opinion and $0.02 worth.
I think you hit the nail on the head here about the same few trying to start another riot. Must be slow over at the alley. As I stated on the other post, I'm strongly against street racing but would allow the videos as a free speech issue. This forum is far superior to the others so I'm staying regardless of the outcome. There are far bigger issues facing most of us that would warrant less focus than this topic is getting.
Agree.... and by the way, defending what MIGHT be our protection under a written disclaimer costs legal bucks too. Bucks that are better served in subsidizing Zone Rendezvous, club events, etc.
All comments respected, this topic should surely be moved into Board and Site suggestions.
Viperzilla
Enthusiast
Smokin, we read about 5 of your posts advertising for alley (possibly on this thread alone). I think the ones that want to go there are already there or will be there soon from reading your first commercial. No reason to keep posting the same stuff. We read your message once, no need for you to clog up the thread with your advertisements. What benefit are you getting from your ads?
I think this board also requires to maintain itself so it can keep good service to the VCA, owners, and enthusiasts. I'm in amazement that only 1 or 2 people can cause a complete stop to street racing videos, even if there are certain circumstances. I don't want to see the videos banned, but I do see where .org has to keep responsibility to the true members of this board. Again, my opinion is that I think if the video shows that the race was done in a completely safe manner to other civilians not wanting to take part in the risk of racing, the video should be allowed (although I do realize that ANY street racing vids won't be permitted).
vipah
Enthusiast
Joe,
You really are confused, aren't you. You said that the nightclub owner also owned the Shell Station, didn't you. Now that is where the link is, not on a sign. They are going after his assets, and Shell Oil is probably a joint owner (it is a franchise). Try searching for all the facts.
You really are confused, aren't you. You said that the nightclub owner also owned the Shell Station, didn't you. Now that is where the link is, not on a sign. They are going after his assets, and Shell Oil is probably a joint owner (it is a franchise). Try searching for all the facts.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
No street racing vids, no moderate language (not even "tv words"), no babes, no use of the word n*zi.
vipah
Enthusiast
The people missing the point are "the powers that be". The VCA and DC have increased their liability by having the policy they now have. Everything that is posted is defacto endorsed by the VCA and DC.
Why? Because the VCA/DC is removing the posts that they can not be seen as endorsing.
The correct policy is to allow everything, with a strong disclaimer that includes something like "the moderators have the right to remove posts". Then when they do, they don't go around giving reasons.
And even then, someone can still sue.
Joe Houss, what is the difference to defending rights under a disclaimer versus defending rights at all. It still costs the same, and having a disclaimer will prevent some potential suits. I find it hard to believe people don't get it. You should talk to the DC lawyers and see why they have all the disclaimers on their ads and such.
Once again, can anyone point to legal action taken against the web site owners for a message on their message board? I can not find one.
I also find it astonishing that this site does not have e detailed policy, with disclaimers, privacy policy, rules, etc etc.. If they did that would probably prevent a lot of discussion since what seems to be happening is that the "rules" are made up as we go along.
Go over to a message board like Yahoo or others and use them as an example. They clearly have had a lot more lawyers looking at their potential liability from their message boards then the VCA or DC.
Why? Because the VCA/DC is removing the posts that they can not be seen as endorsing.
The correct policy is to allow everything, with a strong disclaimer that includes something like "the moderators have the right to remove posts". Then when they do, they don't go around giving reasons.
And even then, someone can still sue.
Joe Houss, what is the difference to defending rights under a disclaimer versus defending rights at all. It still costs the same, and having a disclaimer will prevent some potential suits. I find it hard to believe people don't get it. You should talk to the DC lawyers and see why they have all the disclaimers on their ads and such.
Once again, can anyone point to legal action taken against the web site owners for a message on their message board? I can not find one.
I also find it astonishing that this site does not have e detailed policy, with disclaimers, privacy policy, rules, etc etc.. If they did that would probably prevent a lot of discussion since what seems to be happening is that the "rules" are made up as we go along.
Go over to a message board like Yahoo or others and use them as an example. They clearly have had a lot more lawyers looking at their potential liability from their message boards then the VCA or DC.
SmokinV10
Enthusiast
If you think things are "slow" there you are sorely mistaken. Being "live" for just under 6 months, the site has already over 10 million page views and has almost 80,000 topics in the "anything goes" section alone. Thats just about the same number as the Snake Pit has...TOTAL. Whether or not its your "flavor" is the question. There are many here (especially those who can still complain about G rated material) would would be "eaten alive" in about ten seconds. For the rest, it should be fun.
jimandela
Enthusiast
Gerald,
nice rotors!
[******] lawyers got to ruin it for everyone!!
nice rotors!
[******] lawyers got to ruin it for everyone!!
slaughterj
Enthusiast
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2001
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I might poke around on that over the next couple of days.
As a side note, if there isn't a disclaimer as to content on this board, there should be.
jkracer9
Enthusiast
Maybe this is about street racing but again it should be up to everyone of us to make up our own mind to watch or not to watch. It is extremely easy to pass a post by and if by accident you do take a look I do not think that you will go blind. This board needs to look at the big picture and stop saving us from the small wood splinter when the roof is coming down. Because anyone chooses to post a video on this board does not equate to this board supporting street racing or the poster. I thought that there was a disclaimer stating that the post are not necessarily an endorsement and that the board may or may not agree. It is up to each and EVERY ONE of us to make up our own minds. This Country is great because of freedoms that we enjoy. This board belongs to DC and DC is the dictator of this board and we know that. I would hope that they would re-think their policy or (whomever) some ones personal beliefs with this one.
Look at the positive side, As long as he is here posting he is not on the street, so let him post his videos.
My 2-1/2 cents
Race on
Rohn
Look at the positive side, As long as he is here posting he is not on the street, so let him post his videos.
My 2-1/2 cents
Race on
Rohn
SMCBUILDERSINC
Enthusiast
Lets go to the alley, mark it as a favorite and at least check it a few times a day.
On to the alley...
On to the alley...
Very good points Vipah.
We did, in fact, post very prominently all rules and regulations (and allow editing and discussions) before the new software was invoked. Many edits were submitted, and added, as the website committee worked diligently so that there wasn't any gray area.
Your points are well taken, and we surely should have a disclaimer (although warning that "coffee is very hot" doesn't necessarilly stop anyone from suing you when they spill it on their lap)... but making the coffee cooler, WILL stop MOST lawsuits about scolding.
ANYONE can sue anyone in this country for ANYTHING. Heck, McDonalds got sued for teens that got fat eating their fries!
As far as published legal decisions regarding links to other websites? Yes, I'll try to find the actual Wall Street article again, but there has, in fact, been a Court decision regarding this, and unfortunately, you can be held responsible. From what I understand, linking to a site is no different than having an advertisement in a publication that offers illegal, or offensive products. The PUBLISHER is responsible.
We appreciate all the feedback, and welcome all your comments. I would hope the website committee is watching this thread carefully, and we'll try to come to some decision as to what should and shouldn't be published (for the best interest of the VCA members and to limit liability.)
We did, in fact, post very prominently all rules and regulations (and allow editing and discussions) before the new software was invoked. Many edits were submitted, and added, as the website committee worked diligently so that there wasn't any gray area.
Your points are well taken, and we surely should have a disclaimer (although warning that "coffee is very hot" doesn't necessarilly stop anyone from suing you when they spill it on their lap)... but making the coffee cooler, WILL stop MOST lawsuits about scolding.
ANYONE can sue anyone in this country for ANYTHING. Heck, McDonalds got sued for teens that got fat eating their fries!
As far as published legal decisions regarding links to other websites? Yes, I'll try to find the actual Wall Street article again, but there has, in fact, been a Court decision regarding this, and unfortunately, you can be held responsible. From what I understand, linking to a site is no different than having an advertisement in a publication that offers illegal, or offensive products. The PUBLISHER is responsible.
We appreciate all the feedback, and welcome all your comments. I would hope the website committee is watching this thread carefully, and we'll try to come to some decision as to what should and shouldn't be published (for the best interest of the VCA members and to limit liability.)
robiferretti
Enthusiast
I say we shoot all lawyers, (present company excluded)
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
LOL!!!! Chris, what planet do you live on?
"merits further discussion". Why don't I just sum up the action items on this one...
1) A few phone calls will happen between Joe, Chris, Andy, and whoever else is part of the current inner circle...
2) Some suggestions on how to diffuse the situation will be brought up.
3) The people complaining will be told they can join committees or forward their suggestions to them, or if they complain enough they will ultimately be told to vote for a VCA regional president who will voice their concerns to the national VCA guys.
In other words, you guys will evade, bull$hit, sidestep and just ignore the issue until it goes away. I have no faith in you or anyone else to actually DO anything about any concerns that any user has.
And let's just call a spade a spade, whydon'twe. It shouldn't BE your decision, Chris, or Joe's or ANYONE else's decision other than the members about what is and it not allowed on the site. That's the root of the problem - you guys think you know better than the members do, and you think it's your job to protect everyone from themselves. And that is precisely what ****** everyone off. If the members voted to allow hard-core **** on the site, GUESS WHAT, that's what should be done. It's not about you guys imposing your will or making sure you look out for the members. You guys are supposed to be instruments of the members wishes - not interpreters of what's best or caregivers to make sure everyone stays hunkily dunkily dorey.
And don't give me the "volunteer" BS. SEVERAL officers have and do benefit directly and indirectly from their offices - and many VCA officers got early SRT's. It's a fact that it's a "paying" job in one way or another.
Just admit that DC really pulls the strings and I'll have at least some respect for the "VCA officers". Or be spineless... it's expected now.
Mike, you make some very logical arguments and I enjoy the realism that you often provide.
One question though regarding a democratic decision methodology for this forum, if indeed it were to be managed on a democratic basis. Would it be a VCA member democracy (all current VCA members having one vote per membership regardless of level of board use), VCA members that are enrolled or active on the board, or all participants on the board (VCA members and non-members alike). I ask this as some of the most vocal are not members of the VCA. My belief is that they do not have a voice, period. They can enjoy what the VCA board has to offer, as can all that desire to use it, but I do not believe they have any inherent rights.
My choice would be the first. That is all VCA members even if they choose not to use the board. I am pretty sure this would change the demographics of the deciding group.
One question though regarding a democratic decision methodology for this forum, if indeed it were to be managed on a democratic basis. Would it be a VCA member democracy (all current VCA members having one vote per membership regardless of level of board use), VCA members that are enrolled or active on the board, or all participants on the board (VCA members and non-members alike). I ask this as some of the most vocal are not members of the VCA. My belief is that they do not have a voice, period. They can enjoy what the VCA board has to offer, as can all that desire to use it, but I do not believe they have any inherent rights.
My choice would be the first. That is all VCA members even if they choose not to use the board. I am pretty sure this would change the demographics of the deciding group.
NCVCA
Enthusiast
This is a personal opinion and not offered as my VERY minor position as Secretary in one of the VCA regions...
---
So girls should be boy scouts and womens basketball should have guys and pagens should devote 15 minutes to prayer and AA should serve cocktails?
I'm not attacking anyone, but I must be missing the point. Isn't there still some credibility afforded to standing for something? Having limits? Setting rules and policies? Mind you I'm not saying that it's then okay to dictate those to others without giving them the option to voice an opinion or act on their beliefs, but clubs are for the benefit of all members AND future members. Not just those of us who make a stink (even if there are legit gripes) about one of hundreds of issues.
The other sites that are willing to post these type things aren't being bashed. If they can justify or are okay with them that seems to be fine with the people who have posted about this on both sides of the argument. Why can't we all be okay with that? Sounds like a few guys are really okay with sending people there to see them. Haven't heard anyone cry about those people who visit or even join. Thats the freedom that is being tested here, not censorship.
Not the first person has called those going to VA or other sites traitors or anything else. This seems to be an okay equilibrium.
Let's let the members and market bear the brunt of the masses. If kill videos are the only reason (or at least a significant reason) people visit here and join the VCA then they don't have to visit anymore (counter to a similar argument about posting the videos originally). I don't want that - the club is better for all it's members, but it seems like those who want to street race, video it, then post it still have a forum to do so ---- AND a forum where people don't get all up tight about it!
Those people (third person iteration) don't have to visit those sites either.
Aren't we at a break even point?
I respectfully disagree that organizations are to be totally driven by vote on every issue. There are tenants and mandates of almost every organization. If there weren't how would you know what club or organization (or political party for that matter) to associate with?
Everyone (including me) has foregone the 'street racing is illegal' alone argument and offered realisitic, measurable, definable reasons why the club needs to draw a line on this one (and actually did a long time ago). It's not so much censorship as protectionism from forces that the club or even us as individuals have no control over.
As frustrated as you may be over VCA not being able to stomache kill videos, the club does amazing things for it's members. I won't go on and on about it to avoid sounding like a commercial or a brainwashed VCA guy. But it's true. Take the parts you like and enjoy them. At least in this case the parts you don't like aren't being quashed all together - they still exist elsewhere.
Can't we all just get along? ha. no. but we can probably agree the VCA is among the best car clubs in the world.
Get your kill videos at those other sites and let's all continue to hope that those involved aren't caught, don't hurt themselves or thier cars, hurt others, or inadvertently motivate someone without the mental faculties, safe vehicle, or experience to try what they've seen.
---
So girls should be boy scouts and womens basketball should have guys and pagens should devote 15 minutes to prayer and AA should serve cocktails?
I'm not attacking anyone, but I must be missing the point. Isn't there still some credibility afforded to standing for something? Having limits? Setting rules and policies? Mind you I'm not saying that it's then okay to dictate those to others without giving them the option to voice an opinion or act on their beliefs, but clubs are for the benefit of all members AND future members. Not just those of us who make a stink (even if there are legit gripes) about one of hundreds of issues.
The other sites that are willing to post these type things aren't being bashed. If they can justify or are okay with them that seems to be fine with the people who have posted about this on both sides of the argument. Why can't we all be okay with that? Sounds like a few guys are really okay with sending people there to see them. Haven't heard anyone cry about those people who visit or even join. Thats the freedom that is being tested here, not censorship.
Not the first person has called those going to VA or other sites traitors or anything else. This seems to be an okay equilibrium.
Let's let the members and market bear the brunt of the masses. If kill videos are the only reason (or at least a significant reason) people visit here and join the VCA then they don't have to visit anymore (counter to a similar argument about posting the videos originally). I don't want that - the club is better for all it's members, but it seems like those who want to street race, video it, then post it still have a forum to do so ---- AND a forum where people don't get all up tight about it!
Those people (third person iteration) don't have to visit those sites either.
Aren't we at a break even point?
I respectfully disagree that organizations are to be totally driven by vote on every issue. There are tenants and mandates of almost every organization. If there weren't how would you know what club or organization (or political party for that matter) to associate with?
Everyone (including me) has foregone the 'street racing is illegal' alone argument and offered realisitic, measurable, definable reasons why the club needs to draw a line on this one (and actually did a long time ago). It's not so much censorship as protectionism from forces that the club or even us as individuals have no control over.
As frustrated as you may be over VCA not being able to stomache kill videos, the club does amazing things for it's members. I won't go on and on about it to avoid sounding like a commercial or a brainwashed VCA guy. But it's true. Take the parts you like and enjoy them. At least in this case the parts you don't like aren't being quashed all together - they still exist elsewhere.
Can't we all just get along? ha. no. but we can probably agree the VCA is among the best car clubs in the world.
Get your kill videos at those other sites and let's all continue to hope that those involved aren't caught, don't hurt themselves or thier cars, hurt others, or inadvertently motivate someone without the mental faculties, safe vehicle, or experience to try what they've seen.
RedEnuf93
Enthusiast
It is THEIR forum, not ours.
I pesonally would like to see the videos, but understand their decision on this one. If this was my site, I could limit the posts any way I prefer and delete anything I want, simple as that.
If it were OUR forum, we could form it the way we feel appropriate.
My computer can access other sites as well as this one, so I keep searching the videos other ways.
Thanks for the videos so far. They have been fun to watch and so far have not changed my behavior on the highway.
Lauri
I pesonally would like to see the videos, but understand their decision on this one. If this was my site, I could limit the posts any way I prefer and delete anything I want, simple as that.
If it were OUR forum, we could form it the way we feel appropriate.
My computer can access other sites as well as this one, so I keep searching the videos other ways.
Thanks for the videos so far. They have been fun to watch and so far have not changed my behavior on the highway.
Lauri
BACKNBLACK
Enthusiast
I'm a little late on this post.But the moderaters were talking about getting sued if these kinda videos promote illegal racing.If thats the case, why do they sponser guys who sell S/C and No2. From the last time I heard, N0s is illegal in NY 
..Let Moundir put his vids back..It was great Entertainment..
..Let Moundir put his vids back..It was great Entertainment..Viperzilla
Enthusiast
Back, correct me if I'm wrong, you can't use nitrous on your drag strips? I know it's illegal for use on public roads in every state.
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