Oil Starvation

[GTS Bruce]

My gts is on order.Here is a question for some of you that really like to max out a corner or high speed bend.I have driven cars that have dropped oil pressure to Zerro on exit and entrance ramps with the expected results.Of course you don't know until it happens.Has this ever been a viper problem?After break in I'm planning to do some lapping days at Watkins Glen and don't want to trash the motor . Bruce

 

[Marv S]

Check out:
http://64.70.135.137/ViperUBB/Forum14/HTML/000771.html

 

[Jerry Scott[CO]]

There has been a problem in the past with oil starvation on long high speed turns such as NASCAR oval tracks or combined road courses with oval tracks. K&P Engineering makes a fix for the problem by adding gates to the pan and adding holes to the pan cover. The new, after year 2000 windage trey also must be used in conjunction. Here's two pictures of the modification: The phone no. is 303-697-5821, ask for Kip.

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[Mopar Steve]

Baffled pans may help in some situations, but remember oil flow back to the pan is gravity fed. Durring constant cornering, centrifigal force keeps oil in the top end (valve covers etc) causing it to not drain back into the pan. This is the purpose of an accumulator. When no oil is in the pan, or at the pick-up, and oil pressure falls off, the accumulator sullpies (up to) an extra 3 qts of oil to the engine, under pressure. When oil pressure resumes, the oil is forced back into the accumulator until needed again.

We used this when we ran "one lap of america" in '98 & '99. After many hard track laps and thousands of very hard highway miles, we never had any engine problems. (supercharged @ 10-12 lbs of boost). Steve

Moroso made ours.

 

[Jerry Scott[CO]]

I used a K&P's oil pan all of last year on track events that included Pike's Peak International Raceway which is a high speed oval combined with a road course. I had no problems with oil pressure loss. In 97 I lost the engine with a stock pan for this same reason, as have others who have run on high speed turns. An accumulator would probably fix the problem, but I think that it is over-kill for someone who is running a street car with occasional track events and not needing a dedicated track car.

 

[Bob Woodhouse]

Great advice on oil starvation by Jerry and Steve. I have been researching this issue for some time and can contribute.
During the 2000 Viper Days racing season I watched the needle on my "capillary style" oil pressure gauge fall while cornering and braking hard. My "#13 Woodhouse.com" Viper has been campaigned without engine failure for three years. The first year it ran World Challenge with Bobby Archer. Now all this just to tell you our cars have a problem. Regardless of the best oil pan baffling available we are still drying up the sump. At the end of each season we remove the oil pan and replace the bearings. Yes there is some wear on a couple of the rod journals. I can't say it is from starvation but it is a likelihood. The oil pan we run is the deeper model with the gates and fences (looks like the ponderosa) in the bottom of it. Jerry Scott showed you the pan in the photos on this thread. We are still getting starvation! I highly recommend this pan, or the Mopar equivelant becuase it is a definite improvement, and I probably should anyway becuase we sell them. But it still remains that the oil is not getting to the pan as pointed out by Steve. Chrysler engineering helped with some answers. Our engines keep the oil wound about the crank allowing the pan to continue losing oil as the rpm rises until we reach 5000 rpm, then for some reason it begins to come back down. So what to do? Oil level is very important, try running a quart above the engine's specification. In nearly all of the occasional track cars an oil pan is probably enough protection as they keep the starvation from happening as quickly. By the way, your stock gauges are damped heavily so what you see as a momentary wiggle is much more dramatic and you really don't see the short pressure losses at all. For an all out high-G race car we still don't have the ultimate anwer, yeah dry sump but not allowed. We have worked with restricting the upper engine oil by reducing the oil hole size in the push rods. That also seems to help. An accusump can't hurt a thing either. If you run a lot of track events, check your bearings occasionally and look carefully at #2 thru #4 rod bearing journals. Hope this helps.

 

[Henry Cone]

We use Joe Dozzo modified 2000 oil pans and windage trays in both of our 1996 Coupes that we run in Viper Days. We also use the 2000 style gasket. All of the 2000 pieces are significant improvements over the original 1996 parts. The increased oil capacity is a bonus. I would certainly recommend this modification for anyone running a car in Viper Days. We haven't noticed any oil system problems but we run on street Michelins so our g-forces are not as high as Mr. Woodhouse's....

We will be installing the ACR oil filter mount / shuttle valve on both cars this winter. We got them from Parts Rack, of course!! (Hi Jon!!!) Again these are recommended for Vipers run on the track and this is the one oiling system change that was thought to be important enough by Team Viper that it did make in on the ACR's...

I hope to have details and pictures of the ACR oil filter mount / shuttle valve install soon. I'll try to do a cookbook on this as well.

Both of these changes are cheap insurance, IMHO...

 

[JonB]

Thanks Henry ! Oil starvation in "sweepers" is definitely a Gen-II problem........for TRACKRATS ! For 95% of Viper owners, (and 60% of owners HERE!) many of the panmods are 'overkill.' And could easily even invalidate the warranty. ) Obviously NOT a factor for those trackrats capable and content to routinely refresh their own motors!

The best bang-for-buck mod, (call it insurance?) that an "occasional" track-day owner can make, is to simply add a 2000 pan, windage tray, and gasket. Period. MoPar OE equipment, so your WARRANTY and extended warranty is not an issue. And your Viper stays "original."

And, the extra 1.5 QT solves 75% of the issues that even frequently track-driven Vipers experience!

(I was sad to see oil "overcapacity" go away after Gen-I. There are no GEN-1 oil-starvation problems, even with the very unsophisticated Gen-1 pan...just because of extra CAPACITY! Gen-I owners can relax! )

PartsRack can provide an economical pan/tray/gasket upgrade package for 95% of you.....Easy bolt-on. The next suggested step, as Henry mentions, is the ACR-Oil Filter Adapter. STILL an OEM part ! Better oil pressure (+12lb) at idle and at 4500rpm (+5-7lbs.) And a simple bolt-on Gen-2 upgrade, warranty safe ! E-me, or call Todd-877-475-1100.

After these, I agree w/ the advice on sumps, accumulators, pre-oilers, baffles, etc for the "maniacs" of you that need this! (please know that 'trackrat and maniac' are used only with extreme affection.....)

ps....Bob Woodhouse, a GREAT resource here, mentions adding an extra QT of oil. I would strongly urge you to take this comment IN CONTEXT! If you have Bob's mods, Bob's tires, Bob's venues, and Bob's skills(ie holding .85Gs-1.5Gs fore v e r...) then add a qt. 95% of you should NOT! Get your extra QT with our Gen-2 pan upgrade!!

JonB~~~~~:<~

JonB~~~~~:<~ PartsRack

 

[Marv S]

JON,
2000 oil pan and windage tray VS the Mopar pan Part Number P5007009

1) How many qts of oil with each:
a. Stock '98 Pan
b. Stock 2000 pan
c. Mopar Pan P5007009

2) Is the Warranty voided when using the Mopar pan?

I know the Mopar pan is $$$ but just wondering these things.

 

[JonB]

Marv........just to clarify, I am not suggesting the MoPar Performance pan you cited...because of 'unreasonable' expense. and no significant cost-benefit ratio. (But we certainly will offer it at a discount off the $1200 list price!)

The 2000 pan we do suggest for 95% of owners holds 1.25-1.5 qts more oil than the 1996.5-1999 pans....and has much-improved pickup and tray. And is definitely 'warranty safe.' And the pan/gasket/tray upgrade package is $509 complete !)

Unfortunately, MoPar will NOT state that their performance parts, (like that long-promised ACR pan!) protect the OEM or service-contract warranty. And some is 'off-road' only and definitely not warranty-safe. But I cannot imagine that a warranty motor claim would be denied because of the costly MPP pan....unless by an overzealous zone rep. who would later likly be overruled. That rep might suspect and spot other things. But would 95% of owners risk it?

JonB (B for Bigger pan, not bigger Bucks!)

 

[Marv S]

Thanks Jon,

Sounds like the 2000 pan and windage tray is a big priority but I was just wondering how much oil the $$$$ Mopar pan holds. Maybe it's less than the 2000 pan.

 

[JonB]

I suspect the MPP pan holds less, since it was designed (by CDI) off of a 1998-199 pan ! I do not know this for a fact, but suspect it holds less than the 2000 pan.

I will know by tomorrow, because we have 1 'expensive' pan in the warehouse!

JonB~~~~:<~

 

[luc]

John,

My understanding is that the non ACR oil filter adapter, by-pass the oil cooler "sometime".
It is done to reduce the load an the A/C condenser created by the oil cooler that is in front of it.
Is this "sometime" being all the time that the A/C is on or is that temperature regulated?. And if so by what.
You also mention that the oil pressure go up by 12lb at idle and 5 to 7 at 4500rpms.
Is that only due to a cooler oil having a higher viscosity?
Also I could not find the ACR adapter part # in my micro-fiche.
What the price on it?
Thanks.
Luc.

 

[JonB]

LUC., et al

The "oil cooler shuttle valve" is purely mechanical. When pressure is 20+, all oil routes thru the cooler. On A/C cars, this heats up the the A/C condensor, and cuts out the AC.

So, to protect the A/C from cutting out, at idle, and up til 20 lbs, the oil is NOT sent thru the cooler..to protect the A/C.

Since we all here would prefer to protect our motors full time, and NEVER bypass the oil cooler, the ACR adapter achieves this, and a higher avg pressure and cooler oilflow as well.

This was first tested in Gene Martindale's T-1 GTS in Arizona P.G. during ACR development work.

At a cost of around $209 it is cheap insurance. (Sells even cheaper when bought w/ Pan upgrade)

 

[Tom and Vipers]

1st law of oil pans:

There is no substitute for a really deep sump and the extra oil capacity associated with it.

Gates and flappers cannot solve the fundamental problem that oil just doesn't get back down into the pan.

BB Chevy guys will tell you horror stories on this topic.

 

[JonB]

Exactly right, Tom.....and Dan

CAPACITY, CAPACITY, CAPACITY ! And bang-for buck, the deeper OEM pan, with a larger oil return line is the best bang4buck improvement to suit 95% of Viper owners, 96.5-99, and is 100% warranteed!

(Am I paranoid? The wholesale price of all 3 components, pan/tray/gasket went up yesterday, $2-$10 each! Truth ! But
we're still honoring our "package upgrade discount" thru at least this week....only $509 complete! ACR adapter $199 extra.)

JonB~~~~:<~

 

[Ron]

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">I get the clear impression that this upgrade is mandatory for anyone that runs their car on a track however, is there any benefit to the pan / windage tray upgrade in a purely street driven '96.5 ~ 99 (is the stock set up that deficient?) or is the money better spent elsewhere? </FONT f>

 

[JonB]

Ron 96 GTS.......as much as I'd like to sell another Pan Upgrade Special.......

if you are a street-driver, with no track events or Autocross or dragrace or driving schools in your future, just spend the $509 on an upgraded PCV harness ($26-$36) and a totally new, improved fan module (a must for 96-97 and early 98 under $140) and frequent changes of Mobil One Oil and Mobil One Filters!

Oil flow is not problematic on Gen I cars, or Gen II cars that are driven at 'normal', highway 'Sunday driver' speeds, with only occasional straightline bursts. Your 'worst case' will be highway exit off ramps and on ramps....cloverleaf sweepers that tempt you to DRIVE ! G-forces cause the problem. Rearward, centrifugal, and even De-cel, but less so.

No-Sale JonB ~~~~:&lt;~

 

[Ron]

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Thanks Jon for your "no sale" honesty, but your going to get the sale anyway because I know someday I'll be doing an event somewhere that will require it. Better to upgrade before I need it rather than after.

On the fan module... what is it that the new module does different versus the standard 96.5 module? And what problem does a PCV harness fix?

Thanks for the info... </FONT f>

 

[JonB]

96.5, 97, and the "first few" 98s had the Gen-II small offset fan, with "airflow baffles" that were gravity/airflow-activated.
This fan turns FAST, draws a lot of current, and moves too little air at low road speeds (hence the rt-side baffles) The motor itself is about $200 to replace.

Enter a RDC for 1998.......larger motor, less electrical draw, quieter, larger fan, better shroud, and better CFM airflow for noticably-improved cooling. We have sold many dozens, and feedback is 100% THANKFUL! Takes about 45 minutes and one 10mm socket and a 1/4" wrench to install. Bolts right up after removing one threaded stud. Best of all? Despite recent wholesale increase, we sell it for only $139....COMPLETE!

Your other question (which Tony will say I should probably have made a new thread) is about the 1996.5 PCV harness. Or "oil-puker" as we trackrats call it !

Fact is, the 1996.5-1997 early PCV hose set was NOT compatible w/ Mobil One! (TomFLOGoR once told me why.) The rubber parts deteriorated, leaked, and literally fell apart. Many folks just added zip-ties, clamps, drip cans,etc....but A RDC fix from late 97 is available for under $35, and replaces the rubbery hose fittings with plastic and Synthetic-compatible rubber.

It does NOT fix the puking caused by heavy de-cel track event braking...but it does not flop/fall off and leak!!!

E-me direct: [email protected] comes to my computer

 

[Henry Cone]

Jon, on the updated fan module installation. The installation requires the removal of one stutd and moving a second one to another location. Fortunately the stud that must be moved screws into threads already provided by DC...

We have made this change to both of our 96 coupes and highly recommend it. The new fan is a BIG improvement.....

Did I finally find my chance to correct you??

 

[JonB]

Thanks, Henry. YUP ! I wonder if this a "year-matters" deal w/ 97? Anyone w/ a 97 confirm? THANKS.

Glad to hear ANOTHER satisfied customer ! That fan kit is our #1 best seller upgrade, and a great value.

 

[Jerry Scott[CO]]

Here's another fix for the oil puking into the air filter problem that JonB mentioned. The lastest version has a puke tube also for the power steering pump. This is another K&P product. It has a drain petcock in the front of the can that is not seen in the picture.

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[JonB]

Hey Jerry......thanks for the photo.

Interesting that it appears to fill at the bottom!

Various anti-puke fixes have been proposed....from trap cans to actually installing fuel-cell foam INSIDE the valve covers !

JonB

 

[Jerry Scott[CO]]

This can also has fuel cell foam inside to keep the oil from sloshing out. I've been using one for two years and it works very well. I drain it once a year and get maybe a few ounces to come out.

 

[Jay Lopez]

I've got one of those puke cans. It works great. No more messy engine after a track event.