Power Transplant...(putting rumors to sleep)

[cstegall]

Scott,

You are the pioneer!!! I continue to be amazed by the work you do on your car. I plan on getting Doug to do a Level 1 on mine..so I guess I am a "settler"...but a fast one at that! Thanks for sharing your story and I look forward to seeing the results of the work...

CStegall

 

[treynor]

Yow... I can't wait to hear the next chapter in the story of "Scott P and his quest for Insane Horsepower"! I'm sure if Doug weren't so busy (with my car ) he would have built you a crazy turbo system. As it is, you have a very solid foundation on which to crank the power through the roof. My only caution is, as with any pioneering project, it will take considerably longer than you think, and there will inevitably be some unanticipated setbacks.

That said -- what turbos are you using? Keeping the NOS? single or twin intercoolers?? Inquisitive minds want to know!

 

[King GTS]

Wow! Now that's a Viper I can't wait to see run at VOI 7. The number Scott lays down should be impressive. I myself would also like to know who you trusted to work on your snake & the price for the job, as I heard only a few were really qualified to do so.

 

[Tusc]

So, uh, what exactly did you do with the supercharger system? (wink, wink) I'm sure one or more of the VCA members might be interested...

 

[Chuck B 98 GTS]

Scott, can't wait to see it run at VOI. You've got to be a kid again! Why not tell us who's doing the work. They should be very proud of building onto a powerful car. Is there any patent issues that may apply to the old system or DLM parts they are working on? Otherwise, I can understand them being silent about the whole deal.

Keep us posted,
Chuck B.

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

Chuck -
With consideration of trade secrets and/or issues that pertain to "duplication" of a DLM product; would be the only issues that could apply (I'm NOT specifying this issue). As long as the "said party" does not "replicate" or "duplicate" a patent or patent pending DLM product, there probably wouldn't be patent infringement problems. I don't hold a patent to lines, injectors, etc ... just on the product as a "whole." And of course, to some of the technical parts constructed for our system.

Scott has a right to add or subtract performance modifications to his car and turbo's are just what the doctor ordered! He's right, I would be happy just to see him happy in return!

Scott -
I would be very interested in purchasing back your SC unit and/or supplying you with the necessary parts to convert your snake back to your requirements, I have the crossmember etc... Thanks for keeping me in mind

.

I wish you the best of luck and keep in touch!
Doug

 

[Anthony - 98 GTS]

Wow,Scott keep us posted on the details. I hope you can post some pics soon. I can't imagine the kind of numbers you will put down at anything near 22 psi.

If you haven't yet - you need to make a call to John Purner for some slicks and skinnies to get that power down the track. Looks like someone outside our great State of Texas might be in the 9's.

Good luck,

Anthony

 

[-RUNNR]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Brunton:
Scott,

Sounds fun! I'm in the middle of building a twin turbo 427 Vette... I'm hoping for about 1,000hp (yes, at the wheels) when all is said and done - at some point I would want to also do a TT on the SRT Viper I have coming (in a way, the Vette is a guinea pig so I know what to do with the SRT comes in!).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike, are you doing this from scratch, or a pre-built kit?

From scratch would be one heck of a challenge for sure.

 

[ronviper]

Scott many Mustangs are running insane boost with superchargers. They are using larger crank pulleys and making 30psi plus of boost. I have had twin turbo stage two buicks making 1200hp with a six cylinder. Currently i have a 66 turbonetics turbo on my 87gn, the car hauls sick *** . My 2000gts runs hard but there is no substitue for turbo boost, just turn up the boost regulator and you can go from 0 boost to blowing a head gasket. The control is in your hands

 

[Paolo Castellano]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ScottP:
With turbos your boost is controlled through some gate something and is spun by your exhaust so you are held back by the size gate or turbo that you use.
ScottP

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Scott, I have also been researching the turbo issue and have come to learn a few things: Depending upon how much exhaust gases are calculated to be exiting the engine for whatever modifications have been done to the engine thus far, the first thing you need to do is choose the correct size for the turbos so there is little, if no lag. With an 8 liter V-10, it is not too difficult to do this part. The second thing that can be done is choosing the area ratio of the turbine housing=&gt; this is the ratio of the diameter of the snail shaped, spiralling channel that the exhaust gases flow from the exhaust manifold into the exhaust side of the turbine to the center axis of the turbine wheel. This ratio is adjustable so you can have FULL boost come on say, at 2500 or 3000 RPM where the centrifugal superchargers boost can only be a function of the RPM. This is why I think turbos are more flexible than the superchargers. The other consideration here is the fact that any given turbo has an efficiency map where it makes the most power while at the same time generating a relatively lower amount of heat. The more power you want to make, the bigger the turbo, longer the lag(Assuming no further mods to the engine, as the initial amount of exhaust gases will not change,) and of course, you will have a different efficiency map for the new properties of the area ratio/boost of the bigger turbo. Good luck with your turbo project, I am waiting for Rob Tynmann in San Antonio, Texas to finish up his level 1 Twin Turbo bolt on kit for the Viper. Paolo

 

[Mike Brunton]

Scott,

Sounds fun! I'm in the middle of building a twin turbo 427 Vette... I'm hoping for about 1,000hp (yes, at the wheels) when all is said and done - at some point I would want to also do a TT on the SRT Viper I have coming (in a way, the Vette is a guinea pig so I know what to do with the SRT comes in!). I'd be very interested in your results, the shop you used, and any pics you have of this when all is said and done. You definitely went with the #1 guy who made your TT conversion a cinch (relatively speaking).

 

[JonB]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ScottP:
......I thought for a moment (knowing I was about to void every warranty in the book with my car) but then I thought of something JonB said to me once when I complaining about the check engine light on the new Vipers. He said “Scott, you should be proud because you are one of the pioneers” after that I told the guy the car was on the way! ScottP <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Clark sez "that Makes Me a SETTLER"


The difference between a PIONEER and a SETTLER:

Pioneers get arrows in the chest.....Settlers get em in the buttt.

Im glad my words proved 'inspirational' but NEVER take a stock-tip from me !!!!

 

[MaxedGTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ScottP:
As some of you may already know, my Viper underwent a MAJOR change this past week. I had a tuner put a Twin Turbo system on and had my Supercharger removed. I wanted to take a quick second and apologize to the guys I was supposed to meet on Friday night at the Atlanta Drag Way…I was looking very forward to you guys seeing my new TT Viper! Saturday morning, I was also looking forward to going up to Benson for the Dyno day, but the tuner told me to be patient and it would be worth it…what led me to my decision about the TT system was this….

When I had Doug build my 2000 GTS, I told him no holds barred! He promised me an animal and an animal I got!! After fighting with fuel problems (which after MUCH diagnostics pointed to other problems NOT DLM!) Doug discovered that with his current technology, we could NOT get enough boost in the car for it to be happy (with its LOW compression). It seemed that we needed WELL over 22psi to get the motor to be happy in order to make SICK DLM power. Doug and his guys looked at MANY options before Doug told me that he could do a couple of things (raise compression or put on some technology that I will NOT talk about since Doug has NOT made it official news). I asked him about doing a twin turbo on my car…Doug sighed and said I’m too busy. He was right and I knew it. Doug got all the problems on the car worked out with the exception of getting more boost in the car and PROMISED me he would if I wanted. At this time, I told Doug I would rather enjoy the car for the summer and he needed to get some cars out and should not be working on mine at present. The reason I’m saying this is because I have nothing, but respect for Doug and his work and have NO problems with anything he has done to my car! He built an incredible motor and an equally incredible fuel system!

Now about what I’ve done since then…
After picking my car up from Doug’s, I really wanted to look more into putting a Twin Turbo system on, so I called a couple of shops, who hung up on me as soon as I said Viper. Finally, I spoke to a company that said sure (company wants to remain nameless for the time being (until we go to the dyno for numbers next week)), when do you want to start. Lucky for them, I already had a GREAT motor and an INSANE fuel system for them to work with. The guy told me to give him a week to draw it up and he would get back with me. Sure enough a week later, he called me up and said he was ready to order parts! I thought for a moment (knowing I was about to void every warranty in the book with my car) but then I thought of something JonB said to me once when I complaining about the check engine light on the new Vipers. He said “Scott, you should be proud because you are one of the pioneers” after that I told the guy the car was on the way! The car was in the shop for about a week and now she is running great, however we are working through some MINOR issues during HIGH boost (no, not 10 psi that is NOT high boost… that to me is a starting point). The air/fuel seems to be doing GREAT and of course my favorite part is the sound…giddy up.

I have some pics and will be posting them soon as well as the dyno sheet after we go next week.

ScottP<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What the heck is the difference between 10psi supercharger boost or turbo boost?
I thought boost was boost?

Max

 

[treynor]

Boost IS boost. However, you must also consider:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Intake air temperature
<LI>Exhaust backpressure
<LI>Parasitic drag
[/list]

Soo... a S/C setup will have low exhaust backpressure but high parasitic drag. A turbo setup will have no parasitic drag, but medium-to-high exhaust backpressure. Intake air temperature will depend on intercooler (or lack thereof), impeller sizing, and air source (underhood vs cold air intake).

As a real-world example of this, my '97 Supra made 345 RWHP @ 18 PSI with the stock turbos, stock intercooler, and high-flow cats. After modification, it made 550 RWHP @ 18 PSI with big aftermarket turbos, big aftermarket intercooler, and a 3" pipe where the cat used to be. Similar examples can be found in the supercharging world.

 

[John Myrick]

A big difference between belt driven superchargers and exhaust driven turbochargers is the relationship between engine RPM and boost.

Turbochargers typically include a wastegate that is used to divert exhaust gas away from the turbocharger to control boost. The turbo system can be tuned to achieve its maximum desired level of boost well below the maximum RPM of the engine. Once the turbo system achieves its desired boost level, the wastegate then begins to bypass any additional exhaust gas around the turbo to prevent the boost from exceeding the desired amount.

Belt driven centrifugal supercharger system (Paxton, Vortec, Procharger, etc...) typically do not include such a system. Boost from a belt driven centrifugal supercharger is directly related to the engine RPM. Maximum boost occurs at maximum engine RPM. Lower the RPM and the boost is reduced. In summary, you will only see maximum boost just as the engine reaches its maximum RPM.

Although an exhaust driven turbocharged engine running 15 pounds of boost may produce the same peak horsepower as a belt driven centrifugal supercharged engine running the same 15 pounds of boost, the car with the turbocharged system should accelerate faster. The ability of the turbo system to reach maximum boost at a lower RPM and then hold that boost level to the maximum engine RPM with have more area under the horsepower curve.

Peak horsepower is only a bragging issue. In the real world cars have only a few gears and therefore cannot keep the engine speed at the RPM that produces the most power. So... it's the area under the curve (in the RPM band that the engine operates the most) that determines how fast the car will be.


<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by John Myrick on 04-29-2002 at 01:23 PM</font>

 

[Jason-Middle Tennessee]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by King GTS:
Wow! Now that's a Viper I can't wait to see run at VOI 7. The number Scott lays down should be impressive. I myself would also like to know who you trusted to work on your snake & the price for the job, as I heard only a few were really qualified to do so.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Trey I meet Scott in Atlanta this past year. The car looked GREAT with the supercharger, I can't even imagine it now!! I never know what to expect next from Scott.... Look out Sir Hiss!!

 

[MadMaxx]

I know you've got a waiting list... but, I want the blower incase no one else does

Plus, i'm local.. hehe

MadMaxx

 

[GR8_ASP]

Not a supercharger or turbo expert but still have a few comments. First, some superchargered applications have a relief valve system (similar function to a wastegate)as well. At a specified pressure they vent back upstream into the inlet manifold prior to the supercharger. Second, positive displacement superchargers provide near maximum boost at almost all engine speeds, and provide it almost instantaneously. I believe the previous comment about superchargers only providing maximum boost at maximum rpm or power was in error. This must be in reference to non positive displacement superchargers like a vane type. Similar to turbochargers, vane or centrifugal superchargers provide a very non linear flow rate with speed. Therefor, they provide maximum pressure at a specific engine speed based on their efficiency curve and the driven speed, which can be chosen by the engine builder.

Ron

 

[Anthony - 98 GTS]

Scott,

Did you ever get your car to the dyno? Any update?

Thanks