Side Sill Insulation (Recap)

[Iceman]

Option 1: http://www.atpwrap.com/viper.htm#
Option 2: http://www.designengineering.com/products.asp?m=sp&pid=28
Option 3: http://www.dcperformanceinc.com/Nav.aspx/Page=%2fPageManager%2fDefault.aspx%2fPageID%3d322924

Most of us with 1st and 2nd generation Vipers will have this problem. Upon removing the side sills I noticed the insulation is pretty burned in the Cats area.

The "Thermo Tec's Adhesive Back Aluminized Heat Barrier rated up to 2000°F." described in the cool "96 Viper GTS Venom 550" thread seems to not only catch on fire, but has problems sticking to the car.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/2842000-2842999/2842608_87_full.jpg

I am in the process of replacing the cats with new Random Tech High flows and Corsa catback. BUT any cheap way of covering up the burned areas in the old heat insulation?

PS: I have searched and read ALL the threads on the subject and I still don't think there is a consensus on what the answer is.

 

[TAXIMAN1]

let me save you some time. DO NOT try option #2, again DO NOT try option #2.. I had the same idea as you. Replace the damaged area with new insulation(got mine from Jegs, but its the same cheap stuff). I did exactly that. 5 minutes after installing this, I see smoke billowing from the side sill.... You've never seen someone remove 9 screws so fast.. No damage luckily.

Bottom line, its destroyed this stuff in 5 minutes of running.. Wasnt even near operating temp. yet.. The factory side sill insulation may be charred, but it still works. Believe me.. Just do the high-flows an re-install the sill, as-is..

As far as options 1&3. Seems a but too expensive for me. But that stuff, Im sure works..

Option 1: http://www.atpwrap.com/viper.htm#
Option 2: http://www.designengineering.com/products.asp?m=sp&pid=28
Option 3: http://www.dcperformanceinc.com/Nav.aspx/Page=/PageManager/Default.aspx/PageID=322924

Most of us with 1st and 2nd generation Vipers will have this problem. Upon removing the side sills I noticed the insulation is pretty burned in the Cats area.

The "Thermo Tec's Adhesive Back Aluminized Heat Barrier rated up to 2000°F." described in the cool "96 Viper GTS Venom 550" thread seems to not only catch on fire, but has problems sticking to the car.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/2842000-2842999/2842608_87_full.jpg

I am in the process of replacing the cats with new Random Tech High flows and Corsa catback. BUT any cheap way of covering up the burned areas in the old heat insulation?

PS: I have searched and read ALL the threads on the subject and I still don't think there is a consensus on what the answer is.

 

[rraulston]

wow, i just did the rendom tech cats and wrapped both sides with 2" header wrap. Its the thermo-tec 2000 degree stuff that is impregnated with a copper color substance. I had it on the hotside of my turbo car and it worked perfect. So i would guess it would work on the NA viper. I even wrapped the cats with it. I hope they dont go to 2000 degrees continuous......

 

[GTSjbud]

Option 1: http://www.atpwrap.com/viper.htm#
Option 2: http://www.designengineering.com/products.asp?m=sp&pid=28
Option 3: http://www.dcperformanceinc.com/Nav.aspx/Page=%2fPageManager%2fDefault.aspx%2fPageID%3d322924

Most of us with 1st and 2nd generation Vipers will have this problem. Upon removing the side sills I noticed the insulation is pretty burned in the Cats area.

The "Thermo Tec's Adhesive Back Aluminized Heat Barrier rated up to 2000°F." described in the cool "96 Viper GTS Venom 550" thread seems to not only catch on fire, but has problems sticking to the car.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/2842000-2842999/2842608_87_full.jpg

I am in the process of replacing the cats with new Random Tech High flows and Corsa catback. BUT any cheap way of covering up the burned areas in the old heat insulation?

PS: I have searched and read ALL the threads on the subject and I still don't think there is a consensus on what the answer is.

Hey Iceman...maybe I am misunderstanding but I chose Thermo Tec Adhesive Back Aluminized Heat Barrier because of its rating up to 2000 deg. F. Before I installed the heat barrier I made sure to remove all the weld spatter so that it could stick. And it sticks very, very well!

I removed the original OEM insulation because it looked very weathered after only 1800 miles. I have also seen Vipers that have caught on fire in this area because of the insulation. When I removed my side sills the OEM insulation had detached from the sill itself and was resting up against the exhaust.

My last step will be to wrap the exhaust to keep the temperatures contained in the pipe. I am going to consider using the Roe Racing exhaust wrap. Apparently it works very well.

Hope this helps
GTSjbud

 

[RAYSIR]

My last step will be to wrap the exhaust to keep the temperatures contained in the pipe. I am going to consider using the Roe Racing exhaust wrap. Apparently it works very well.
GTSjbud

I put the Random and Corsa system on my 98 GTS and wrapped the cat and pipes with the exhaust wrap Summit sells. The 6" wide 100' roll. I drove the car for about 10 miles, pulled into my garage and the smoke wouldn't clear from the sills. I'm sure it was smoldering and it was a lot of smoke. I had to start hosing the sill down thinking I had a fire going. When I pulled the covers that is what was happening, black char all over. I removed the wrap and drilled a dozen 1/4" holes in the riveted plate at the front of the sill covers. I firmly believe that you need air to circulate around the pipes not cover them up. IMO the solution is the mesh front sill plates only then water and dirt will get in. I don't think anyone has a definite answer or else DC would have fixed it a long time ago.

 

[KWIK96]

Did mine 2 weeks ago.
Tried the exhaust wrap and the same as RAYSIR, 10 miles and she was smoking.
So I decided to get serious, and this is what I did.
1. removed interior and completely lined the cabin with heat sheilding. Replaced interior. So you end up double insulted. Also reduces cabin noise. approx $200
2. Installed Random Tech high flows. approx $400 installed
3. installed side sill vents. Made my own. approx $10
4. Custom made insulator between headers and plastic air/heater box. Keeps intake air to vents cooler and therefore AC works better. approx $10

Cabin heat is greatly reduced. Took me 4 days but I am VERY happy.
Also did a stereo upgrade, alum radiator, and passport SRX at the same time. The laser shifter works, saved my behind already.

A few pics

 

[Ron]

RAYSIR is right, it's all about airflow and you can get airflow in the sills without cutting anything or providing a path for water and debris.

GTSJBUD in my opinion you had it right up until you added the ROE insulation. That insulation will eliminate any heat carrying airflow and only "delay" the inevitable heat rise. It's great stuff, just the wrong application. In addition, any water that enters the sill via car washing for example, will soak the insulation and maintain that moisture up on the inner sill for weeks if the car isn't run or if it is, give the sills a nice internal steam bath, both of which could allow sill corrosion to occur. The early factory insulation did that and a lot of sills were replaced because of it. Lining the inner sill with Thermotec should prevent that from happening though. Header wrap, Thermotech (assuming it's strong enough to survive in there), and hi flow cats along with the introduction of additional airflow sounds like a nice way to try to minimize sill heat. You could always add the ROE insulation later if you didn't like the results.

QUIK96, nice job on installing your Thermotec. Having the reflective side facing the heat source as you did is optimal.

I found a way to get a little additional airflow in the sill, though by still using the factory insulation which is quite bulky not as much as I would have liked, and it help considerably in lower sill temps.

 

[WOT!]

"I found a way to get a little additional airflow in the sill, though by still using the factory insulation which is quite bulky not as much as I would have liked, and it help considerably in lower sill temps."

So tell us what you did?

 

[xlrashn]

Can we get some of you that have "air flow" ideas and installs on your cars to post some pics of these. I would really love to see the options. Thanks!

 

[Iceman]

And most importantly the results. I do think airflow is the key. For all the vendors out there, just how hard would it be to duplicate the factory insulation at a reasonable price. The dealer wants $600 a piece for the inside Thermal sill inner liner.

I would be happy just to have a new original insulation, now with the high flow cats and exhaust it would be fine. Most likely it would not burn out again.

Thanks to all for the suggestions.

 

[xlrashn]

Iceman.. I agree, airflow is the first beat area to address. Could we please see pics of these installs from those of you that have them? I crave visual input............

 

[dave6666]

I found a way to get a little additional airflow in the sill, though by still using the factory insulation which is quite bulky not as much as I would have liked, and it help considerably in lower sill temps.

Yeah... You are officially teasing us...

 

[ViperTony]

I drilled a series of holes in the plastic/fiberglass piece in front of the side-sills, behind the front wheels. I then used some JB-weld to glue a piece of screen mesh behind that cover to keep debris out. If my hole pattern didn't look so awful, I'd post pics. But it works and my sills have been cooler when the car is moving. Air now has a way to circulate through the sill.

 

[Iceman]

But what about the water that gets in? Also, the header pipe has quite a bit of room around it going into the still, so I don't know if air coming in is realy a problem.

It seems to me that the factory CAT was so big that it blocked all the air from flowing properly to the back.

 

[ViperTony]

But what about the water that gets in? Also, the header pipe has quite a bit of room around it going into the still, so I don't know if air coming in is realy a problem.

It seems to me that the factory CAT was so big that it blocked all the air from flowing properly to the back.

Water not an issue. I have hi-flow cats and catback so plenty of room for air to circulate through unblocked. Noticeably cooler sills if the car is moving. At a stand-still, traffic not much difference. I wish I had done it earlier.

 

[dun4791]

Wouldnt eliminating the cats altogether take care of the problem?

 

[xlrashn]

I have a Gen 1 and was wondering if the bulk of the air flow tips helping are adressing Gen 1 2 or 3 cars?

 

[Sir Hiss RT10]

Wouldnt eliminating the cats altogether take care of the problem?

No they will still get hot

 

[GTSjbud]

Hey Ron, RAYSIR, KWIK96, Iceman & ViperTony,

Thanks for all the ideas on how to reduce side sill heat temps. I was planning on purchasing Roe Racing exaust insulation...but no any more.

Here's my new plan:

- create air flow into the side sill area by drilling holes at the front of the side sill or installing a real fine mesh...To Be Determined

- maybe purchase Thermo-Tec's header exhaust wrap and install on pipes.

I have purchased Random Tec's high flow honey comb catalytic converters and plan on installing them. I have also had the exhaust pipes coated with high tempertaure ceramic coating to keep the heat in.

Cheers
GTSjbud

 

[JonB]

I was forwarded this thread and asked to comment. THis is a no-win reply for me, I may be seen as self serving , but here goes, Im just trying to be helpful.

1) DONT WRAP CATS. EVER. With ANYTHING. If you search this topic, some anal-retentive-perfectionist owners (thanks) have found that its just postpones and prolongs the heat. AND IT MAKES THAT CATALYTIC REACTION TOO HOT. Wraps just DISGUISE, CONTAIN and POSTPONE heat, not eliminate it.

2) We have removed numerous WRAPPED exhasut systems from wrecks. They cause corrosion and oxidation BAD, even on Stainless systems. Team Viper covered this at a recent VOI tech session. DONT WRAP THE EXHAUST they said. The fine-grained road minerals, dust, film, combine with water and make an acidic electrolysis. DONT DO IT.

3) HiFlow cats and HiFlow cat-backs run 125-150 degrees COOLER SILLS than OE. tested over and over with thermo-coupling data gathering eqip. Even roasted NOMEX (OE) is better than cheap-o waffle. Cooler exhasut eliminates heat, not discguizing it

4) We do sell front-sill Gen 1-2 louvre vents, E-Z install, on our website for $75/pr. ($69 VCA) They DO IMPROVE AIRFLOW even when stationary, allowing convection out the back. DONT INSTALL WIDE-UPEn hardware-cloth screens, as these ingest combustibles like leaves and cigarette litter

 

[Iceman]

Thanks Jon, but one question that I still have is, WHAT do we replace the burned insulation with? Would some kind of exhaust tape work?

In my case the insulation looks ok, but the aluminum wrap covering it is black and cracks and desintegrates when you touch it.

 

[Ron]

Thanks Jon for your feedback. Your observations on other exhaust wrapped Vipers makes it clear that wrapping isn't the answer. I have observed the same in headers that were wrapped, but wasn't aware that stainless would similarly corrode.

I did a lot of work a while back in measuring temps, trying different cat & pipe coatings, insulating sills, driving air into the sills, etc., to the point of even having one exhaust side coated and leaving the other stock which allowed direct side by side comparisons. I've piece-mealed out some of what I did in various other postings so a search might help. To make it easier, I will try to summerize it in this post soon. That said, while I found a way to get some airflow into my sills both while in motion and at a standstill, my personal rule is to do nothing to my car that isn't completely reversable and that sometimes limits the effectiveness of my projects. In the meantime, I'm sure someone has even a better idea and will be willing share it. That's the tremendous value of this forum....

 

[2001 GTS]

So Jon, what do I do about a fiberglass side sill with a HF cat and Moroso muffler that burn though the fiberglass. Both ends open, but the factory heat shields are long gone.

 

[rraulston]

I was forwarded this thread and asked to comment. THis is a no-win reply for me, I may be seen as self serving , but here goes, Im just trying to be helpful.

1) DONT WRAP CATS. EVER. With ANYTHING. If you search this topic, some anal-retentive-perfectionist owners (thanks) have found that its just postpones and prolongs the heat. AND IT MAKES THAT CATALYTIC REACTION TOO HOT. Wraps just DISGUISE, CONTAIN and POSTPONE heat, not eliminate it.

2) We have removed numerous WRAPPED exhasut systems from wrecks. They cause corrosion and oxidation BAD, even on Stainless systems. Team Viper covered this at a recent VOI tech session. DONT WRAP THE EXHAUST they said. The fine-grained road minerals, dust, film, combine with water and make an acidic electrolysis. DONT DO IT.

3) HiFlow cats and HiFlow cat-backs run 125-150 degrees COOLER SILLS than OE. tested over and over with thermo-coupling data gathering eqip. Even roasted NOMEX (OE) is better than cheap-o waffle. Cooler exhasut eliminates heat, not discguizing it

4) We do sell front-sill Gen 1-2 louvre vents, E-Z install, on our website for $75/pr. ($69 VCA) They DO IMPROVE AIRFLOW even when stationary, allowing convection out the back. DONT INSTALL WIDE-UPEn hardware-cloth screens, as these ingest combustibles like leaves and cigarette litter

HHMMMM

1: Disguise heat????irrelevent....Contain the heat??? correct!! Postpone the heat????? irrelevent again. Contain the heat and send it out the tail pipe is what were after Disguise and postpone the heat mean nothing....

2: Corrosion and oxidation....well maybe. Ive never seen it..if you drive when its wet outside..perhaps???..If the tape were to get wet, i dont think they would stay that way long enough for anything to happen.....Oxidation.... 'stainless steel' doesn't rust and ordinary steel does. The stainless steel has a thin coating of another metal which does not contain free radicals. Regular steel may be painted for protection against oxidation, but oxygen can still exploit any opening, no matter how small. Doesnt wraping keep a little air away???? And the electrolysis theory, wheather wrapped or not, those items can and will get on your exhaust. I think This is a NON-issue, especially in Arizona.

3: Disguising???HUH???? You cant hide a steady volumn of heat. Its there. The idea is to CONTAIN the heat and make it go where WE want it to, like out the tail pipe, and not to radiate all over the place. Cooler exhause eliminates heat???? HUH???? cooler exhaust is just that ...cooler!!! nothing gets eliminated.....


Cars have been wrapped forever....and all kinds of cars too. My turbo Mitsu pushed 28 PSI and was wrapped for years. That saved my xfer case, a/c compressor and countless hoses. Zero issues. I know that a NA Viper gets no where near as hot as that Turbo Mitsu at 28 PSI. This thermo tec tape reduces heat radiation by like 70%. By retaining it in the exhaust stream, ill send it out the rear of my car where it belongs...Ime not bashing, But Jon's thread is very misleading......So i threw the flag....... Ray

 

[RAYSIR]

[/quote]

Cars have been wrapped forever....and all kinds of cars too. My turbo Mitsu pushed 28 PSI and was wrapped for years. That saved my xfer case, a/c compressor and countless hoses. Zero issues. I know that a NA Viper gets no where near as hot as that Turbo Mitsu at 28 PSI. This thermo tec tape reduces heat radiation by like 70%. By retaining it in the exhaust stream, ill send it out the rear of my car where it belongs...Ime not bashing, But Jon's thread is very misleading......So i threw the flag....... Ray[/quote]



ONE thing I think you are missing in your comparison of your Mitsu to a Viper. Look at the clearance of the Viper cats and mufflers enclosed in the sills. LESS than 1" circumfrence clearance inside the sill covers for a 5' length. If the Cats and mufflers were exposed as a turbo or normal exhaust then the wrap would work fine. I was thinking the same way you are with "sending it out the rear" but mine almost burned. BUT it doesn't work, not when it's enclosed.

 

[luc]

I don't pretend to have the definitive answer on this subject, only to add my own experience.

First some background:

At about 3000 miles, I had to replace both sills due to heat damaged paint ( the car was still under warranty and my local Jeep service manager was a good friend,so I choose to have new ones put on instead of repainting the old ones.)
Both insulations had some burn marks and, to avoid the same issue on my new ones, I tried to understand what had caused those burns.
The main question was why will the shields be burnt at some specific locations and not everywhere?
Due to the heat transfer properties of the metal , the cats have about the same temperature (about 1200*with the correct A/F ratio but can go up to 2000* if raw fuel is dumped) on their whole surfaces, not some very localized hot spots, and obviously the shieds have the same heat resistance property along their whole surfaces.
So, why those localized burns?
Furthermore,It did appear that the insulating material was slightly more compressed at the location of the burns.
That lead me to believe that the issue was a combination of heat and friction ( due to movement and vibrations) between the cats and shields.
Will removing the friction factor from the equation solve the problem?
The ony way to know was to try.
In order to remove this metal against metal friction,I needed to add, between the shields and the cats a heat resistant material that would act as a buffer between the cats and shields ,and be flexible and thin enough not to add any bulk to the cats.
From my work experience, I knew that Silica fabric could do the job.
I ordered from McMaster-Carr (part #87855K1) some 0.030" thick Silica fabric rated at 2100*.
I then wrapped ( 1 layer only ) the fabric around the cats and used some SS safety wire (3 rows equally spaced) to hold the fabric on the cats.
A few years and 8000 miles later, I removed one of the sills and the insulation had no more burnt marks.( and no more heat related paint damages either).

Luc 00GTS

 

[JonB]

If you wrap any pipes, the wrap quickly and over time impregnates with fine silicates, dust, salts, minerals and oily road film. When you wash your Viper, the sills get wet inside. When the wrap gets wet FROM WASHING the wrap ABSORBS water and soap. This creates an acidic bath that STAYS WET/DAMP a long time. This corrodes the welds, stainless, etc etc.

And that same wrap heats up slowly and retains heat and cools off slowly. It delays the cooling afterwards, and prolongs the heat soak.

Running less restrictive, cooler components to ELIMINATE heat is more effective than 'disguising' the heat with (questionable-smokey) wraps. Your experience may vary.

 

[rraulston]

you know, ime always open minded, perhaps since the majority of our cars are not race cars makes a difference. ALSO...we are not wrapping THE HEADERS......we are wrapping down stream 2-3 feet where the metal(i believe) is much cooler than an ACTUAL header. I had a $1299 header on the Mitsu from Full-Race. Top of the line. They suggested NOT to wrap it. I didnt. All i wrapped was the exhaust from the turbo hot side and back. I could hit 1600 degrees EGT for short durations. After a few thousand miles, i will give you HONNEST feedback. I just put a 10k paint job on the car and AINT screwing up the paint. Ill take some pics in a month or two. Ray

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

My 2 cents based upon my experience with my 01 Viper. I put RT high flow cats on, and the existing insulation was still in good shape. The new cats and RT cat back made a big difference in side sill temperature. No more burns on my leg!

I put a Roe SC on the car this summer, side sills are warmer, but still not as hot as stock cats. I would not wrap anything in the side sill with this setup. No need to, and all you do is invite other issues, e.g. corrosion.

 

[ViperTony]

I replaced my stock cats with RT cats and later added a 3" Belanger catback and headers. The RT cats made a huge difference in side-sill heat reduction. The RT cats are running 200 degrees cooler than the stock cats. Also, the aluminzed steel in the Belanger system seems to cool off quicker tham the stock pipes or the stainless steel catback I had prior to the Belanger setup. I then added my own version of vents to the front of the sills to allow air to circulate through the sills and push heat out through the back of the sills. No insulation was added. Amazing how much room is gained in the sills by replacing the stock cats. Air now has a way to circulate through. My sills are much, much cooler to the touch. Hi-flow cats and side sill vents are worth the investment and seem to do the job. The principle is simple...get air moving through the sills so that the heat has somewhere to go other than inside the cabin or roasting side sills. On a hot summer day at the beach would ya' rather wrap yourself with a blankie or shed some clothing and feel that breeze to stay cool?