Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

What is the ignored market you speak of that the gen1 (original viper) solved, but the gen 2/3/4 did not? In relative terms, the viper has consistently been the most brutal and easy to work on car for the time. The genv does not seem like much of a departure (if at all) from the core parts you mention (engine/trans/suspension/brakes) are all still very easy to work on. Sure, more electronics in the interior (about time), but it is not like the 80's vette digital dashes. If I carry your logic too far (just as an extreme example), you would still want a car that you had to tune up every 3000miles, adjust the carb and timing, etc like those of the 50's/60's? Point is I don't think the purest miss the carb or setting the timing. I am happy to have a electronic gizmo work for years and years vs replacing/adjusting a cable, points, condensors, etc. If the issue is quality, I get it but you have to admit that has went way up over the years.

So, if I had two gen2's in my garage (I don't), man I would be pumped to put a GenV between them with the only fear asking myself why do I have two gen 2's. Having a Gen3, I am equally excited to add a GenV. So for me, they not only hit the demographic, but expanded it (if the person has the money to purchase). If they don't have 100-130k, they were never in the market anyways (ie, never had a plan to produce a 50-70k viper).

Sometimes I'm too tired to continue explaning the difference between an electronic nanny and a performance upgrade. Spend some time on a track. You'll find out the difference and the rewards.

 

[05Commemorative]

Sometimes I'm too tired to continue explaning the difference between an electronic nanny and a performance upgrade. Spend some time on a track. You'll find out the difference and the rewards.

See, now you are talking to the wrong guy. I spend a ton of time on the track (road coursesa) as I think that is what these cars are great at, but if all it takes is to push a button to turn off nannies, then I am not going to complain and in fact think it will be best for the majority of drivers that do not know how to drive these cars at the limit, particularly on the street. So, now I would love to see a better explanation of what your are talking about. I am particularly interested on how the original (gen 1) was somehow the right car, so are you saying the following gen's are not?

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

See, now you are talking to the wrong guy. I spend a ton of time on the track (road coursesa) as I think that is what these cars are great at, but if all it takes is to push a button to turn off nannies, then I am not going to complain and in fact think it will be best for the majority of drivers that do not know how to drive these cars at the limit, particularly on the street. So, now I would love to see a better explanation of what your are talking about. I am particularly interested on how the original (gen 1) was somehow the right car, so are you saying the following gen's are not?

Yes, for me, the 2001 and newer are not the right car. And for all those drivers who need government mandated nannies to give them that false sense of ability they have virtually every other car to choose from. The purists have none.

But aside from market neglect, the government is dictating what auto manufacturers can build and consequently, what you can buy. That should enrage an American, particularly auto enthusiasts. Surprisingly and disappointedly, it does not.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Chuck if the nannies can be turned off, hence returning the car to unnanny state, then how is it the purists have no choice? Just turn it offf and you are back to barebones, right foot control. SRT has effectively made the car accessable to all by offering the nannies to allow the less skilled to get the Viper experience while still catering to the purists such as yourself by allowing the nannies to be defeated. I sense the problem you have is not so much the nanny issue but that now everyone will be able to drive a car like the Viper. Maybe I got you wrong. You want the Viper to stay exclusively for purists only, right? But if you really look at it it is still that way. It just has grown to include a new demographic.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Chuck if the nannies can be turned off, hence returning the car to unnanny state, then how is it the purists have no choice? Just turn it offf and you are back to barebones, right foot control. SRT has effectively made the car accessable to all by offering the nannies to allow the less skilled to get the Viper experience while still catering to the purists such as yourself by allowing the nannies to be defeated. I sense the problem you have is not so much the nanny issue but that now everyone will be able to drive a car like the Viper. Maybe I got you wrong. You want the Viper to stay exclusively for purists only, right? But if you really look at it it is still that way. It just has grown to include a new demographic.

Where is the freedom of choice? The pro-nannies have always had it, but the purists are forced to pay for something they do not want - both initially and maintenance, both financially and time (most purists wrench their own cars). Take a look at the monthly "tire air pressure light" threads on the SRT forum. Those are emblematic of the nanny mandates.

I liked the image the original Vipers had. Every article was the same - "rough", "noisy", "hot", "uncomfortable", "low tech", "no frills." And they all wrapped it up with "the funnest car I ever drove." I didn't agree with everything they said, but everything they said made me smile.

Last Sunday I took my low tech, uncomfortable 137,000 mile non-nanny RT/10 around a wet Sebring track. A 2010 ACR, Porsche and Mustang GT went out a minute or so ahead of me. My little no-nanny Viper passed them all half way through the second lap.

I've mentioned before, the kit car market is the only place for purists anymore. Maybe Dodge can find a way to assist that industry...if the government will let them that is.

BTW here is a thread that clearly indicates the benefits of nannies on a sports car. Perhaps they should be relabelled "placebos" instead of nannies.
http://forums.viperclub.org/threads...on-Same-Stretch-of-Autobahn-(Including-an-ACR)

 

[PJ9454]

Chuck, I feel ya' I witnessed many wrecks at Sebring and Daytona from my windshield (I missed them all..thank goodness).

I raced in American Sedan at Sebring and Daytona (3300# and 450 h.p. cars), won the SCCA Championship, track record, blah blah. On a wet track "ON SLICKS" I took the overall win in a field of 50 cars including the GT-1 cars by over 30 seconds. That rain will separate the drivers from the guys who drive.

You know that 2010 ACR can whip you, but the driver can't. Now put all the electronics on the car and all goes well until that driver that has no skills loses control and piles it up going REALLY fast. Electronics make bad drivers have worse wrecks as they are going faster than their abilities in response time, experience or seat feel should allow. Now hopefully they don't take anyone out with them.

My only complaint is the fact that all these poser whiners want them, NOW, I have to pay the money to buy a car with these launch control and traction control devices. Why should I be forced to buy them, make them part of an option out sheet as I will be disabling them anyway. Thats what I am saying.

On a lighter note...heres some fun video of me racing my Mustang in Daytona in the rain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge1u7nLO2CE

Heres a damp track qualifying session from Sebring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=wGmfvYCFB-U You had to drive way off the proper line as it was too greasy in the proper line. The braking zones were like 50 percent longer...not a good track that day.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Where is the freedom of choice? The pro-nannies have always had it, but the purists are forced to pay for something they do not want - both initially and maintenance, both financially and time (most purists wrench their own cars). Take a look at the monthly "tire air pressure light" threads on the SRT forum. Those are emblematic of the nanny mandates.

I liked the image the original Vipers had. Every article was the same - "rough", "noisy", "hot", "uncomfortable", "low tech", "no frills." And they all wrapped it up with "the funnest car I ever drove." I didn't agree with everything they said, but everything they said made me smile.

Last Sunday I took my low tech, uncomfortable 137,000 mile non-nanny RT/10 around a wet Sebring track. A 2010 ACR, Porsche and Mustang GT went out a minute or so ahead of me. My little no-nanny Viper passed them all half way through the second lap.

I've mentioned before, the kit car market is the only place for purists anymore. Maybe Dodge can find a way to assist that industry...if the government will let them that is.

BTW here is a thread that clearly indicates the benefits of nannies on a sports car. Perhaps they should be relabelled "placebos" instead of nannies.
http://forums.viperclub.org/threads...on-Same-Stretch-of-Autobahn-(Including-an-ACR)

Ok. I get your perspective. I guess SRT did the only thing they could by offering the defeatable option to try to keep the purist interested. They cant even offer a la carte delete option since, for the vehicle to be legally sold, it now has to come with that nanny. One can only wonder what else will be mandated soon.

 

[PJ9454]

If this stuff is mandated it sure explains it. Cuz thats a lot of expense to folks that dont want it.

 

[kdaviper]

Chuck, it seems like your problem lies with government regulation, not the Gen V itself. Maybe you're displacing your anger a bit.

 

[05Commemorative]

Yes, for me, the 2001 and newer are not the right car. And for all those drivers who need government mandated nannies to give them that false sense of ability they have virtually every other car to choose from. The purists have none.

But aside from market neglect, the government is dictating what auto manufacturers can build and consequently, what you can buy. That should enrage an American, particularly auto enthusiasts. Surprisingly and disappointedly, it does not.

So then anti-lock brakes are the nanny you are referring to introduced in 2001-10? Never heard anyone before complain about abs, particularly in relation to performance. I do totally get your point later that you make around the expense all these features cost folks that don't want them, but most are in the name of safety (vs performance).

 

[VENOMAHOLIC]

After some time of reading this thread I have learned nothing except for the shocking pic Nine Ball made of his disassembly of a C6 to get at the clutch. I going to have to trade my wife's 99 C5 in before it needs work and I pay an arm and a leg. I also think his other cars in the garage are sweet BTW.

SRT and Ralph did almost everything I wanted to the Gen V. More power, less weight, the V10, Gen II styling, etc. They also did what they had to do to sell the car to appeal to more people and pass government regs by adding comfort, tech, and nannies. It is a shame that the purist version of the Viper is over but it is still one hell of a ride. I am a poser owner of a 2000 Rt/10 because I didn't want ABS. I have had it for 8 years and never plan on selling it. I am able to do minor service to it at home. I am a purist because nannies are overrated, often malfunction, give people a false sence of security, and mask the real road feedback you need when driving a car.

If I get a Gen V, I actually may lease instead of buy, not because of money, but because I may really start to panic if I am left without a warranty on a complex $100k car. The cam in cam tech, electronic nannies, and tech gadgets added since the Gen II really are beyond the skill level of not only backyard mechanics, but also most small business garages and even some Dodge dealerships to work on.

 

[VENOMAHOLIC]

So then anti-lock brakes are the nanny you are referring to introduced in 2001-10? Never heard anyone before complain about abs, particularly in relation to performance. I do totally get your point later that you make around the expense all these features cost folks that don't want them, but most are in the name of safety (vs performance).

ABS does not work well and specifically not on ice. Pumping the brakes and having full control of the pressure on the pedal works better for me personally. When ABS activates, it virtually takes over the car and makes steering difficult.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Chuck, it seems like your problem lies with government regulation, not the Gen V itself. Maybe you're displacing your anger a bit.

Largely yes, but I don't like to get too far into politics in car specific sections of the forum. But since you caught on, yes it is very disappointing, frightening actually, that Americans are so indifferent, complacent even, with laws and the freedom each law eliminates.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

So then anti-lock brakes are the nanny you are referring to introduced in 2001-10? Never heard anyone before complain about abs, particularly in relation to performance. I do totally get your point later that you make around the expense all these features cost folks that don't want them, but most are in the name of safety (vs performance).

Yeah, it's always in the name of safety. Well, that and $$$. Seriously, a government mandated backup camera to save 50 children from getting run over every year? Well then, what about the 50 children that get killed by airbags every year? Shouldn't we get rid of air bags or don't those deaths count because Delphi and TRW make millions from airbag sales? A percentage of which is no doubt contributed to both political parties to ensure more mandates.

We're being scammed...in the name of safety.

 

[MoparMan]

Largely yes, but I don't like to get too far into politics in car specific sections of the forum. But since you caught on, yes it is very disappointing, frightening actually, that Americans are so indifferent, complacent even, with laws and the freedom each law eliminates.

+1. Everyone should be outraged at the pace at which government is growing and increasing their control over our lives. Every little bit it grows is that much more of your liberty that's been taken away.

 

[05Commemorative]

ABS does not work well and specifically not on ice. Pumping the brakes and having full control of the pressure on the pedal works better for me personally. When ABS activates, it virtually takes over the car and makes steering difficult.

You are driving a Viper in freezing conditions? Your statement of ABS is shocking to me, but then again, I would not buy an early year viper because of the brakes. ABS clearly makes steering the car EASIER in a panic situation and you do have more control of the steering aspects because you don't have a tire locking up, etc. So, I am not sure if your data is referenced to a car with a bad ABS system or not, but drive a Gen3 or newer and the brakes are known to be fantastic.

I get many of the "PURIST" points of view and in many ways put myself in that camp, but I think you can be a purist and still believe that ABS, EFI, power brakes, and power steering are absolutely the right things.

So, what defines a purist? Does a true purest require drum brakes, carbs, bias ply tires, manual steering & brakes, manual windows, no AC, points/condensor, etc? What is the line?

 

[VENOMAHOLIC]

You are driving a Viper in freezing conditions? Your statement of ABS is shocking to me, but then again, I would not buy an early year viper because of the brakes. ABS clearly makes steering the car EASIER in a panic situation and you do have more control of the steering aspects because you don't have a tire locking up, etc. So, I am not sure if your data is referenced to a car with a bad ABS system or not, but drive a Gen3 or newer and the brakes are known to be fantastic.

I get many of the "PURIST" points of view and in many ways put myself in that camp, but I think you can be a purist and still believe that ABS, EFI, power brakes, and power steering are absolutely the right things.

So, what defines a purist? Does a true purest require drum brakes, carbs, bias ply tires, manual steering & brakes, manual windows, no AC, points/condensor, etc? What is the line?[/QUOTE. I have cars other than the Viper for winter use that have ABS It is difficult to describe what happens when the ABS goes on I know I do not like it. Power steering does work. Steering by wire is a scary concept to me. It will always be safer to have a mechanical connection with the front wheels.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I get many of the "PURIST" points of view and in many ways put myself in that camp, but I think you can be a purist and still believe that ABS, EFI, power brakes, and power steering are absolutely the right things.

That would make you a level 2 purist. Level 1 purists don't want ABS and only tolerate power brakes and power steering because they are mechanical and not electronic.

 

[ViperGMC]

So how do you produce anything "new" while maintaining purity/tradition? The very definition implies old, handed down, long established. Wouldn't it be more akin to the production of a replica. So what some are saying is that the GenV should be a replica of a GenI or II. That seems rather boring to me. I guess if your Gen II has 150K miles and is showing its age and you want one with 10k miles than a new replica makes sense. There are plenty of Gen I/II out to there to buy however. The introduction of the GenV does not diminish any of the previous Gen one bit. I love my Gen III and will never sell it. I love the Gen V and can't wait to get mine. I can see me getting a GenII at some point and enjoy each one for what it is. I just don't see the hang up, no one is coming to get your older Gen Viper. The only way to I can see to satisfy "purists" is to remake the same car and that's not what the Viper nation is all about.

 

[PJ9454]

What I am saying is: I hate the added expense of the electronics that I am going to disable. The big fun of driving my 2010 ACR is that tire shake about 20-40 mph as it struggles to hold onto the surface, once in awhile is gets real loose on you and you have to steer out of it and even better yet once in a while it gets right out of control and you have to back pedal it. OMG so fun and passengers are in awe of the monster under the hood ahead of them. But you add traction control and it just goes fast...theres no danger, no talent required, no reason to be up on your toes, no adrenaline rush. So keep that stuff turned off and ride the bull. Now on the Gen V if I could just not have to buy those parts in the first place AND get the headlights changed to something that looks good, a wing and some canards...I may buy the new one. But right now you'd have to pry my my 2010 ACR out of my cold dead hands as its waaaay cooler looking than the Gen V. Even my 1997 GTS is better looking than the Gen V. I think the best the new style can place is third, but it may get even with my 1997 if the ACR version of the Gen V is cool.

 

[VENOMAHOLIC]

So how do you produce anything "new" while maintaining purity/tradition? The very definition implies old, handed down, long established. Wouldn't it be more akin to the production of a replica. So what some are saying is that the GenV should be a replica of a GenI or II. That seems rather boring to me. I guess if your Gen II has 150K miles and is showing its age and you want one with 10k miles than a new replica makes sense. There are plenty of Gen I/II out to there to buy however. The introduction of the GenV does not diminish any of the previous Gen one bit. I love my Gen III and will never sell it. I love the Gen V and can't wait to get mine. I can see me getting a GenII at some point and enjoy each one for what it is. I just don't see the hang up, no one is coming to get your older Gen Viper. The only way to I can see to satisfy "purists" is to remake the same car and that's not what the Viper nation is all about.

. Since when is newer always better. Brand-new houses typically get aluminum siding that looks cheap and instead of plywood they have chipboard. My very old furnace is actually more reliable than the newer ones and easier to work on.