dtenney
Enthusiast
Last edited:
Stability Control and my 2009 SRT crash
- Thread starter ferraritoviper
- Start date
Flying Viper
Enthusiast
Im with you Rck, The Viper should have the traction control features and it will soon, just like it now has ABS and even windows that go up by the use of a little button.
Its the way of the future which is way past due for the Viper.
Its the way of the future which is way past due for the Viper.
I read the recent 5 page thread on electronic stability control, and was absolutely amazed at the the vast amount of replies, that were adamantly against it! So amazed, that I felt a separate post in favor was necessary, based on my first hand experience this past Sunday....although I'm sure I'll be condemed in one form or another, certainly for lack of concentration and/or poor judgment, however **** happens!
When shifting into second at approx 30mph, I popped the accelerator a tad aggressively and went into an immediate violent 360 deg spin out crashing both sides of my 09 Viper, so damn fast...and with no time and/or room to react. Had there been someone walking a dog or riding a bike, etc., they would have been crushed. As it is the damaged estimate is $55K. With electronic stability control, this almost certainly would not have happened, assuming of course that the switch was onIf I'm not totalled out by insurance, guess what I'm having installed...beside PS2 tires? I left my machismo back in the bush a long time ago.
RCK
P/S: In my opinion, "Cop Magnet" had the best common sense response in favor of ESC, in the original thread, page 4.
Sweet Ride
Enthusiast
Meanwhile:
Good news, my Beautiful Hot Red Viper is saved! Insurance settled with Indial Auto Collision (Katonah, NY, recommended by Chuck Tator) at $53k. I will have my act together the 2nd time around. Again, thanks for all the well wishes and general valued input...however, there will be a switchable tuned ESC controller in my repaired Vipers immediate future
Good news on the repairs!
If you're getting new tires get a set Kumho ASX's while your're at it. By many opinions it is a better tire than the PS2 and/or PSC.
eucharistos
Enthusiast
First off, I'd like to say that Ferraritoviper is quite a "stand-up" guy. He could have taken all the "criticism" here and told us all what we could do with it. Instead, remarkably, he's taken the opposite attitude and virtually apologized for his mistakes. That speaks a great deal about him!Quite impressive to me!
me three
glad you will be back in the game soon
Took off on an "on ramp" to the interstate last year and the road was a little bit damp but not sopping wet. Anyway was trying to feel out the car since I had not driven it much, so I held into the throttle. Seriously maybe 30-45 mph. Rear wheels started to spin and I can distintively remember the power jump from the right rear wheel to the left rear wheel to the right to the left, very quickly and the rear was getting loose quick, I rode that out for about 1 second and then let off but the car was pretty squirrelly at that point.
My opinion is the factory rear diff ***** in these cars and are up there for the culprits with the snake bite. It starts with a disrespect for the car and the power you have underneath your lead foot, then many who feel it wil eventually hook up so they hold in there, then the car's rear diff just not handling the power correctly.
Again, only my opinion, but a Quaife type of diff where the power is equalized across the rear tires all the time, is the only way to handle this amount of torque. From what I distinctively remember feeling, the rear diff is a problem.
My opinion is the factory rear diff ***** in these cars and are up there for the culprits with the snake bite. It starts with a disrespect for the car and the power you have underneath your lead foot, then many who feel it wil eventually hook up so they hold in there, then the car's rear diff just not handling the power correctly.
Again, only my opinion, but a Quaife type of diff where the power is equalized across the rear tires all the time, is the only way to handle this amount of torque. From what I distinctively remember feeling, the rear diff is a problem.
CitySnake
Enthusiast
That's my plan.
I'll move that along with admin.
Good news, my Beautiful Hot Red Viper is saved! Insurance settled with Indial Auto Collision (Katonah, NY, recommended by Chuck Tator) at $53k. I will have my act together the 2nd time around. Again, thanks for all the well wishes and general valued input...however, there will be a switchable tuned ESC controller in my repaired Vipers immediate future
Indian Auto are great folks. They do top notch work and stand behind it. I see you've already found Chuck Tator too, so you're in the best hands all around!
adamlotus
Enthusiast
i have had that happened to me also at low speeds,i have had 5 vipers and the 08 is the easiest to loose imo again can happen to the best drivers ,its just a beast and can bite anytime glad u got your back in control.
ferraritoviper
Enthusiast
That's my plan.
I'll move that along with admin.
Indian Auto are great folks. They do top notch work and stand behind it. I see you've already found Chuck Tator too, so you're in the best hands all around!
Yes sir...I'll be looking you up City!
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Buy a Vet or any one of the dozens of other TC-equiped sports cars, but leave our Vipers alone. The Viper is not the car for you. There are a lot of other great cars, buy one of them.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Oh, and spend some of those big bucks at a track.
Amazes me how many owners [VCA members or not] bought a viper knowing what it is capable of and yet whine about it. Plain and simple - it is not the right car for them.
Warfang
Enthusiast
It's simple really... they want the Viper for it's reputation for being a bad@$$ car, but they're too much a ninnie to really handle one. So they whine all day about nannies. The irony is that what makes a Viper bad@$$ is it's lack of nannies. Maybe they're hoping that no one notices if they have it their way.
HOW many ninnies track their cars regularly? Seems all the track rats here won't even consider it as an option. Tells you something.
WILDASP
Enthusiast
First off, I'd like to say that Ferraritoviper is quite a "stand-up" guy. He could have taken all the "criticism" here and told us all what we could do with it. Instead, remarkably, he's taken the opposite attitude and virtually apologized for his mistakes. That speaks a great deal about him!
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
+1. And in many cases can be the cause of the accident rather than a prevention.
Last edited by a moderator:
FastestBusaAround
Enthusiast
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2009
- Posts
- 226
- Reaction score
- 0
Wild, yes, but nowhere near as scary or deadly as a bike if you lose it...which is much easier to do on 2 wheels.
Even with PS2 non run-flats, if the tires are cold you will break the rear loose. They need to be warmed up. Took my '09 to the track and ran 2 times as soon as I got their and they hooked up OK, after waiting about 2 hrs to run again fish tail city...need to be warmed up.
viperbilliam
Enthusiast
For those of you talking about not lifting the throttle - I think that depends on the situation - the weight transfer does make sense - I'm aware of that but I was just talking about WHAT WORKED, not theory. A related concept of not lifting is trail braking. These are weight transfer and traction management techniques. Some mentioned counter steering techniques. My point was that none of these worked once a snake bite begins with the old stock rear end.
Sorry about your car. Traction control is good for most people most of the time for street use. Wet road, old cold run flats, falling road pitch, high horse power and a little too early or too much throttle, or all of the above and she spins. Guy behind me caught this clip on his helmet cam and it may help you analize your moves. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u84k_C3f9pQ[/media] Fortunately it was at an open track. Once momentum starts beyond a controlled drift, and the rear breaks free (it can happen fast), there is very little a driver can do. Off the gas and clutch in and you actually spin in a staight line. Drop it down a gear, drive away, and pretend it never happened. Of course solid objects will ruin the fun.
pteam
Viper Owner
it doesnt matter. everybody is not a professional driver. everybody doesnt goto driving school. this car should have traction control and for the advanced drivers they can simply push the button and turn off the traction control that would take a whole 2 seconds. traction control saves lives and vipers, and no I have never wrecked a viper and owned 2 of them. plus no traction control scares buyers away and thus viper sells less cars which could be part of a reason if they discontinue viper...
Chrissss
Viper Owner
Ridiculous statement....I would venture a guess there hasn't been a single Viper sale that would have been made but didn't solely because the car didn't have traction control. You buy the car, learn to drive it. You don't want to do that? Don't buy the car.
Last edited:
Traction Control cost money. Taxes cost money, inflation costs money, option cost money, crash tests cost money as does emmissions testing and approval.
Viper would be less than half cost without taxes and Gov. charges. Cheaper than half price if we didn't have taxes.
Traction Conrol would cost more money and raise the cost of our Vipers thereby losing customers and leading to the death of the Viper. Unless you meant for Chrysler to supply Traction Control for free and lose profit, also creating a reason to quit Viper production?
I have more options in my car than a new Viper comes with. Even though there are $10,000 systems that will give you traction control - that is not an option I ever considered adding.
On the other side I do know a guy with a Z06 vette. After leaving him in the dust during a road acceleration test he mentioned that he's never turned the TC control off in his car. His Z06 bhp is rated at 430. Father-in-law has TC in his V6 Chrysler 300 - why? His car will not release the brakes in snow until the TC is turned off.
Reading up on ECS and ECP they apply the brakes when skidding? So on ice and snow they would apply braking and cause you to lose control, right? Extremely dangerous? It seems that our new Ram has some electronic system that doesn't turn off, ever. Since nearly everyone here has a new Dodge Pickup and I've had to read that they come with an Electronic Program I'd guess that no one else even knows they have it. Obviously can't be too intrusive if no one knows they have it?
Ted
Viper would be less than half cost without taxes and Gov. charges. Cheaper than half price if we didn't have taxes.
Traction Conrol would cost more money and raise the cost of our Vipers thereby losing customers and leading to the death of the Viper. Unless you meant for Chrysler to supply Traction Control for free and lose profit, also creating a reason to quit Viper production?
I have more options in my car than a new Viper comes with. Even though there are $10,000 systems that will give you traction control - that is not an option I ever considered adding.
On the other side I do know a guy with a Z06 vette. After leaving him in the dust during a road acceleration test he mentioned that he's never turned the TC control off in his car. His Z06 bhp is rated at 430. Father-in-law has TC in his V6 Chrysler 300 - why? His car will not release the brakes in snow until the TC is turned off.
Reading up on ECS and ECP they apply the brakes when skidding? So on ice and snow they would apply braking and cause you to lose control, right? Extremely dangerous? It seems that our new Ram has some electronic system that doesn't turn off, ever. Since nearly everyone here has a new Dodge Pickup and I've had to read that they come with an Electronic Program I'd guess that no one else even knows they have it. Obviously can't be too intrusive if no one knows they have it?
Ted
Cop Magnet
Enthusiast
Ted, your argument that taxes and waste are a huge part of the cost of the car are right on the money. But I don't see how that means any of us should be arguing against traction control. It's a whole lot less wasteful than anything else you mentioned. In fact, people would be a lot better off arguing with the Gov about taxes than with each other over this issue. Let's keep it in perspective. Once people let go of the ego in this--the "I can drive a car without TC and you can't so get off my playground"--Dodge would be in a better position to sell cars.
As far as the previous poster's comments, they are correct. Lack of TC scares off potential buyers. And rightfully so. NO ONE who is not a master of driving skill should drive a 600HP car without TC. How many of the MULTIPLE Viper owners who posted throughout this thread have referred to not only near-misses but frank accidents that happened because they couldn't handle the "snake bite"? It's like a right of passage, people are proud of it. Fine, be that as it may, but it's a hell of an initiation fee to join this club. Remember, the goal here is to SELL CARS, not create an exclusive club of survivors of Viper crashes.
As far as you r last comment: "Reading up on ECS and ECP they apply the brakes when skidding? So on ice and snow they would apply braking and cause you to lose control, right?" all I can say is you don't have a grasp on how this works at all. TC would cause you to lose control in as much a way as ABS would cause you to skid. It's not perfect, but it helps.
Anyway, I don't care one way or the other. I'm just digging a hole with the old-school here, and my impression is its coming regardless. See you at the track, with the switches off of course.
As far as the previous poster's comments, they are correct. Lack of TC scares off potential buyers. And rightfully so. NO ONE who is not a master of driving skill should drive a 600HP car without TC. How many of the MULTIPLE Viper owners who posted throughout this thread have referred to not only near-misses but frank accidents that happened because they couldn't handle the "snake bite"? It's like a right of passage, people are proud of it. Fine, be that as it may, but it's a hell of an initiation fee to join this club. Remember, the goal here is to SELL CARS, not create an exclusive club of survivors of Viper crashes.
As far as you r last comment: "Reading up on ECS and ECP they apply the brakes when skidding? So on ice and snow they would apply braking and cause you to lose control, right?" all I can say is you don't have a grasp on how this works at all. TC would cause you to lose control in as much a way as ABS would cause you to skid. It's not perfect, but it helps.
Anyway, I don't care one way or the other. I'm just digging a hole with the old-school here, and my impression is its coming regardless. See you at the track, with the switches off of course.
In general I agree with you. But I've been argueing with the Gov about fairness and money and have decided that they couldn't care less about us - only themselves ... and our money.
I am one of the members that wrecked a Viper and no nannies would have helped. Night before last a vette lost control and smashed into another car then skidded through a bus stop over top of a pedestrian those vettes have TC.
I tried a Charger with ESP and it only allowed me to go 20 - 30mph on a gravel road that I normally cruise down at 40-50mph and went 60mph after turning off the electronic - I didn't consider that to be an improvemnt.
As far as TC on ice and snow, it has to be turned off to move in most cases. Amything applying brakes while driving on ice is dangerous. Like having cruise control turned on while driving on ice snow or rain, you could easily lose control when the cruise control downshifts your automatic and the tires start to slide. Driving uphill I had this happen to me in my 91 F150. Nearly went over a cliff when the truck went sideways on a steep, ice covered hill called "Revenge."
If we 'need' more JUNK, make it an option. Adding tens of thousands of extra dollars to the Viper is fine for the people that want that extra cost, but I'd prefer to keep the cost down. If the Viper will cost more ... then it should go faster. Voice modules and digital heater controls are nice, but cut down on reliability and aren't needed in a race car. Cup holders need to be integrated before TC. I did nearly crash when I stood on the throttle and my coffee cup flew around the inside of the car, scalding me. That Walmart cup holder just wasn't designed for performance. After that I designed my own clip-on cup holders.
Ted
OK, that lack makes it a selling point?
I would think that the world's fastest road car wouldn't need anything else??? Leather covering the dashboard (option cost of many luxury cars $10,000), couple extra pieces of carbon fiber (like a Ferrari $7,000?), automatic or paddles shifters ($7,000?).
Anything that anyone wants can be added to any car. HP, nannies, mega stereo and Bluetooth are popular modifications. I like my supercharger, exhaust, Big Brakes and wheels the best.
Chrysler sells the world's fastest Road Car to us and it's up to us to make any extra changes for our useage. Perfect.
Ted
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
How would one know if the switches were off?
Warfang
Enthusiast
Maybe crybabies should take some classes before installing an SC on a car he can't handle.
Or maybe have Woodhouse stick in a racelogix... you know TC that is available TODAY!?
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
So does walking, but it isn't as much fun is it?
What is so difficult about you pro-nanny types to understand? Contact Woodhouse and have him install TC for you. You get your nanny and I don't have a stupid light or switch or fuse or any other additional junk to repair or work around, nor the added cost of paying for something I don't want anyway.
If you're so damn big on TC then put your money where your mouth is and contact Woodhouse!
ROCKET62
Has Left the Room!
Chuck, lighten up some. Love your posts and what you add to the club, but the "shouting" posts and the "go buy a vette" attitude are a little much. If having new technology available attracts more Viper buyers and saves the brand I'm all for it. No one is forcing you to add Stability Control, TC, or any other "nanny" technology to your Viper. I had to laugh when you actually admitted to having the creature comfort of the seat pouch to store your garage door opener.
If I'm reading your signature correctly and the fact that you still drive a '98 Viper, you're not the best ambassador for any new Viper or any new technology anyway (Before you get your ******* in a ***, that REALLY IS NOT meant as a negative comment) - just an observation.
I appreciate the fact that everyone has different tastes, desires, and personal preferences. I love every generation of Viper and respect each owners opinion and tastes. No one can say for sure if having stability control would have prevented this accident. But suffice it to say having stability control as a "back-up" to sound judgement, driving schools, etc, undoubtedly would have kept one or two more Vipers on the road - a good thing in my humble opinion - as I completely disagree with those that have this "I'd rather let Viper die" attitude.
PS - Your frustration sounds more like frustration with where our government is going - and I fully agree that the current administration has us headed in the wrong direction - but that's a topic for a different forum.
If I'm reading your signature correctly and the fact that you still drive a '98 Viper, you're not the best ambassador for any new Viper or any new technology anyway (Before you get your ******* in a ***, that REALLY IS NOT meant as a negative comment) - just an observation.
I appreciate the fact that everyone has different tastes, desires, and personal preferences. I love every generation of Viper and respect each owners opinion and tastes. No one can say for sure if having stability control would have prevented this accident. But suffice it to say having stability control as a "back-up" to sound judgement, driving schools, etc, undoubtedly would have kept one or two more Vipers on the road - a good thing in my humble opinion - as I completely disagree with those that have this "I'd rather let Viper die" attitude.
PS - Your frustration sounds more like frustration with where our government is going - and I fully agree that the current administration has us headed in the wrong direction - but that's a topic for a different forum.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Sorry Rocket, but I'm not gonna lighten up on this issue. There are dozens of other cars that fit the pro-nanny crowd, they can buy any of them. But there is only one the fits the driver purists crowd and I will fight to the end.
But fear not, in the end you pro-nannies will win via government legislation and the Viper will die a slow death and you'll be wondering why...that is if you even care by then.
In the spirit of promoting a terrific guy and a major asset to the Viper community...
Woodhouse Dodge will install traction control on your Viper and does a great job. Support Woodhouse Dodge!!!
But fear not, in the end you pro-nannies will win via government legislation and the Viper will die a slow death and you'll be wondering why...that is if you even care by then.
In the spirit of promoting a terrific guy and a major asset to the Viper community...
Woodhouse Dodge will install traction control on your Viper and does a great job. Support Woodhouse Dodge!!!
