Stability Control and my 2009 SRT crash

[EZ 2B Green]

Geeze,

What a thread!. I fear that the discussion here may scare away more potential Viper owners here than the car itself.

I am a Vette to Viper convert having many Vettes with all the electronic safetys. I was very concerned with all the crashed GenIV Vipers with under 100 miles while waiting for my car to be built. I tried to learn as much as I could about the Gen4 so I would be ready for this beast. Now I have over 5000 miles on my snake and I don't fear it at all. I does require respect. I also don't miss the ESC electronics.
I pushed the car hard at VOI10 on the tracks we visted so I would know what the car will do with the peace of mind that I was in a controlled environment. I think the car does exactly what I would expect it to do 99% of the time (I would say 100% but 5000 miles doesn't make me an expert for sure). I also think that SRT did alot to make the GenIV more driver friendly. I think the ViscoLok differential is a big improvement and the electronic throttle compensates power delivery for climate conditions (see the article on it in VCA magazine). The new tires are also great.
I follow the Corvette forums also and a few guys have had ESC malfunctions that wound scare the crap out of me. The more stuff added, the more can go wrong. The Vette just finally went too far in my opinion with all the technology and I wanted to take a step back and be more in control. I vote for less intrusion by electronics vs. more. I like what the GenIV has but I don't want to add any more driver aids.

I think the accident that started this tread was probably caused by a fuel/oil spill in the road. It just doesn's sound quite right to blame it on cold tires alone. If a spill was the case your just screwed. ESC might have helped but I do not think the car "NEEDS" ESC just because it has high power output. There just is no substitute for experience driving high powered vehicles and being able to read the conditions.

On a side note: my wife and I drive snowmobiles in winter and I think it makes us better automobile drivers. A sled is always on a surface that has less than ideal traction and your body becomes very tuned to vehicle dynamics. A driving school does the same thing to help your skills.

For new GenIV drivers out there here's what the biggest issues are that can cause a loss of control:

1). The position and lack of space between the pedals. My tip is to always position the heel of your right foot directly under the brake pedal. This way, you instinctively align your foot over the brake in an unexpected/rapid transition to brakes. Otherwise, you may get gas and brake simultaneously (very bad).

2). The variable cam can come on strong around 4K rpms and produce a surge of power (be ready).

3). The differential is much much better in GenIV but its not perfect. The Quaife is the best and is a must for some divers.

4). Last but not least, Cold tires are also trouble. I put this last because by the time you step up to a Viper, you should know this already from driving lesser vehicles. If you don't have this fact burned into you brain you don't belong in a Viper.

Just my .02

 

[dun4791]

Drug up this old thread because I was looking at the pictures of the OP repair progress.

Looks like some got what they wanted, no nannies or no Viper.

Proud of yourselves I hope. Adapt, change, and technology evidently are not in the "old school" dictionary....RIP Viper, and possibly Dodge.

 

[ViperGeorge]

You know rumor has it that the second production ACR that competed in the Cannonball One Lap of America was running an experimental traction control system installed by SRT. Can't swear to it but that is what I heard. The driver was an SRT engineer and the co-driver worked for the company that built the software for the Venom controller.

 

[R993]

Don't mean to bump this older thread up, but say what????

You mean that if I am on an open road, no traffic, warm tires, dry road, straight line going about 20 miles and hour in a Gen IV and decide to stomp on it in first to say 45 or 50 miles an hour and then shift into second that I will have to always be highly concerned that I will spin the rear end? Does nobody every floor it when safe without thinking, is this the time I will lose it?
I'm doing a lot of research over the last few months and am just days away from getting an 08 and getting a bit scared reading the hundreds of posts of warnings ..etc. Maybe that's a good thing, I don't know.
No, I have not driven Vipers before but have had other so called widow makers like the 86 911 turbo (not a chance you could spin it in a straight line, corner yes but straight line no way), 427 rat shoved into a camaro, newer tail happy 911's (993 turbo with no nannies). Outside the rat nothing that compares to the torque of the snake.
I have done many courses ..etc but just want to make sure I don't have to use finely honed skills non stop to rescue the beast.
No I'm not an idiot street racer (49 years old) and do not take any chances but once and awhile it would be nice to open her up in safe situations.

Maybe somebody should write a New owners survial guide. Guaranteed a money maker when reading a lot of the posts

As always, thanks in advance for the opinons as you are helping a future member.

Rob

 

[RTTTTed]

I also feel bad for your loss. I have been in that situation. The originator of this thread shifted into 2nd gear at 30mph. Since second gear doesn't start until 56mph you need to expect to lose control when you're going 30mph while your back tires are going 95mph (top speed in 2nd gear). I stomped on the throttle at 40mph while in 4th gear (tires going 140mph) and instantly lost control. When the tire and road speed are so different you lose control. I lucked out and had the room to swing back and forth 5 or 6 times until I got control back. Didn't hit anything, but learned a lesson about tire speed vs vehicle speed. To retain control I don't put my foot on the brakes (like TC) I merely use the gears for the ranges they were designed for. My car is way more powerful than a Gen 4 and therefor much more dangerous.

I suggest driving courses, perhaps some parking lot drifting and shifting to learn proper driving skills. Another option would be to put a block under the gas pedal or pull off a plug wire or two to cut back on power. I seldom do burnouts and when I do I make certain that I have room to recover.

I raced a z06 on an empty 4 lane going uphill. I eased him up to 50mph and then let him get 3 car lengths ahead. In second gear I floored it, fishtailed all over both lanes and finally found traction about 70mph passed the vette like he had his TC turned on and once in front of him I shoifted into 3rd gear, fishtailed all over both lanes - but I was more than 2 lengths in front of the Z06 and after a couple hundred feet I got traction again and started driving away from the vette. I shut down and coasted back down to 50mph (speed limit). The Z06 came up beside me so we pulled over and talked a little. He said that he's never driven his car without traction control because he didn't think he could control the stock Z06 without TC.

Obviously not the type of person to drive a Viper. Also not the type of person to drive a highly modified supercar. He's the typer of person that races with TC 'ON'. He's never been on a road course.

No, I prefer that he drive a vette and not try out a Viper as he has no interest in learning to drive his car. He would probably be much happier with an AWD Porsche. He's a poser. He wants the big power but wants nannies to do the driving instead of him. That he's never been on a racetrack or dragstrip indicates that he has no need of big power. He doesn't even need a Z06. Before Chrysler installs TC and ESC I think they should offer a 389bhp Hemi powered Viper. It would sell a lot of Vipers at $40,000 - but then a Viper would be like owning a vette, some fast and some slow. A Viper comes in FAST only.

Ted

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Does nobody every floor it when safe without thinking, is this the time I will lose it?

Yes, that is when you will lose it. Just like every time you floored your 427 Camaro you had to think about it or you would lose it.

My, how did we survive all those years without electronic nannies.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I stomped on the throttle at 40mph while in 4th gear (tires going 140mph) and instantly lost control. When the tire and road speed are so different you lose control.

You mean "broke traction." Breaking traction is not the same as losing control. I can spin the tires all day long and never lose control.

 

[Cop Magnet]

If you are going 40 MPH, your tires are also going 40 MPH.

 

[R993]

Your right Chuck.
The only nanny I had with the old camaro was the fear of what was going to break this time (spent all my money on keeping it running). 4:57 rear end, Centerline with 50 series. Miss those days with glorious burnouts (wiper motor installed in trunk with two lines going to each tire and javex in the plastic holding tank.
425HP at the crank still does not compare with a 600HP viper, but never really spun it while in a straight line

 

[Twister]

Ive said it again and again and again...

TOURQUE on these cars is unlike anything elso on the market...weather your in a gen 2 with 465 rwt at the wheels or gen 3 with 490 rwt at the wheels or gen4 with 530 rwt at the wheels they all make that tourque at VERY low rpm's....


What his foot registered to his brain as simply a one inch blunder in applying gas....The engine of the viper took as a message to release well over 400 rwt at only 2500 rpm's or so...

Other cars out their have hardly any tourque and the gas would have to really be down for a second for the rpm's to climb and get to 5000 PLUS rpm's were the HP could over take the rear tires....In a Viper..Just the quick hitting tourque at low 2000-3000 rpm's will do the same..

 

[ferraritoviper]

Not surprised this old thread surfaced, it is a serious topic. Ya gotta love the monday morning quarterbacks...they mean well, but they weren't in the 'drivers seat' at the time.

A quick re-hash: 70 deg afternoon, cold tires, slight curve, road was 1-1/2cars wide, dry pavement (no oil-leaves-water etc.), approx 30mph in first, quick 1/4 or less pedal into 2nd gear shift (NOT FLOORED-clutch not popped), tires broke pavement and instantly loss control into a violen 360 deg spin (no time to react or place to maneuver, if there was any time) bashing both sides of car into road post and then trees. P/S: I did attend Ferrari's road course driving school in Marenello, Italy, and with ESC both on and off.

Surfice it to say, with the thought of maiming or killing a pedestrian, and after $53k in damage, I would have install switchable ESC immediately...however it is not available for my 09. Guess I will have to wait until 2012, as will all the rest of you, whether you like it or not...it's a moot point for the Viper, and long overdue IMO. In closing, I sympathize with the feelings of the Viper purists out there...however, even the dinosaurs became extinct

 

[shooter_t1]

Not surprised this old thread surfaced, it is a serious topic. Ya gotta love the monday morning quarterbacks...they mean well, but they weren't in the 'drivers seat' at the time.

A quick re-hash: 70 deg afternoon, cold tires, slight curve, road was 1-1/2cars wide, dry pavement (no oil-leaves-water etc.), approx 30mph in first, quick 1/4 or less pedal into 2nd gear shift (NOT FLOORED-clutch not popped), tires broke pavement and instantly loss control into a violen 360 deg spin (no time to react or place to maneuver, if there was any time) bashing both sides of car into road post and then trees. P/S: I did attend Ferrari's road course driving school in Marenello, Italy, and with ESC both on and off.

Surfice it to say, with the thought of maiming or killing a pedestrian, and after $53k in damage, I would have install switchable ESC immediately...however it is not available for my 09. Guess I will have to wait until 2012, as will all the rest of you, whether you like it or not...it's a moot point for the Viper, and long overdue IMO. In closing, I sympathize with the feelings of the Viper purists out there...however, even the dinosaurs became extinct

Blah blah blah...sounds like you need to learn how to drive.

 

[R993]

Ok then Shooter, then what did F to V do wrong to cause not correct the situation (lift, no lift has been stated in earlier posts)?

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Ok then Shooter, then what did F to V do wrong to cause not correct the situation (lift, no lift has been stated in earlier posts)?

For starters he should have stuck with Ferrari.

 

[WILDASP]

Ok then Shooter, then what did F to V do wrong to cause not correct the situation (lift, no lift has been stated in earlier posts)?

Short answer: applied throttle too abruptly. Note that he did not go WOT - he didn't have to, especially at that speed, in 2nd, on tires not yet up to ideal operating temperature. Actually, he could have gone WOT more gradually, likely without incident; but sudden throttle, even at a lower level, would be more than enough to start enough wheelspin to break the rear loose. Try it yourself (in a wide open area where you can't hit anything, please!), and watch what happens. Once you break traction on the rear under those conditions, the rear comes out and around very quickly. Again, with the throttle, this is more about how sudden than how much, especially down in the lower part of the rpm range. This is largely a function of the tremendous torque available in the lower part of the range (between 1500 and 2500 rpm). The solution is to be smooth with the throttle; squeeze it, don't slam it. It's far easier to prevent the "bite" in the first place, than to catch it when it occurs.

 

[Brake Dust]

You lost control of a Viper at 30 mph? Hopefully it was raining. I'd be embarrassed to post that. Invest in a good performance driving school

OR A CHAUFFEUR. IT ALMOST HAPPENED TO ME !

 

[RPHJR]

cold tires, slight curve, road was 1-1/2cars wide, dry pavement (no oil-leaves-water etc.), approx 30mph in first, quick 1/4 or less pedal into 2nd gear shift .

quick pedal action AND shifting INTO a curve?

 

[AviP]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Breaking traction under hard acceleration requires smooth and fast reflexes to maintain control and requires muscle memory. Learning to break traction under controlled conditions, such as in an empty parking lot, and then recovering is the best way to maintain that muscle memory. I have had a fair amount of unexpected loss of traction situations at speeds of upto 55 mph under both wet and dry conditions and have survived them thanks to my parking lot training. The worst was in the wet at about 50-55 mph when the rears lost traction (I didn't realize my tires were bald). My reaction amazes me to this day and I feel very Fernando Alonzo'ish (of F1 fame) when I think about it. BTW, one of the key aspects is backing off the gas ever so slightly and letting the car's suspension and over 1G of lateral acceleration right the beast while you countersteer left and right vigorously, in ever decreasing amplitude, to correct the direction of spin. You'll feel the tires bite with a THUD.

RCK, no disrespect to your driving skills but IMHO a driving school will teach you is to stay in control, they will not teach you recovery techniques. These techniques are far more important because stuff happens, especially with the legendary torque of the Viper.

And I still vote for NO TRACTION CONTROL. What can I say, it's those bad experiences I had in a Toyota Supra Turbo that made me buy the Viper.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

one of the key aspects is backing off the gas ever so slightly

That's it. But people panic and let completely off immediately or even worse, slam on the brakes. Then instead of buying any one of dozens of cars that have all the gizmos to cover their butt they want to change the only purist car built today - the Viper, into a nanny car too.

So much for freedom.

 

[ferraritoviper]

<<RCK, no disrespect to your driving skills but IMHO a driving school will teach you is to stay in control, they will not teach you recovery techniques. These techniques are far more important because stuff happens, especially with the legendary torque of the Viper.>>

Well stated AviP! The V is in a class by itself. The only thing it shares in common with the F is a steering wheel. Only wish the V held its value like the F.

 

[Dom426h]

Only wish the V held its value like the F.

one of those guys

My viper is a Toy. Not an Investment.


I suggest finding a car you Love. Then you can keep it forever and never have to worry about how much your gonna lose when you flip it for the next best thing(or what you think is the next best thing) Judging by your posts, i assume you'll be moving to a porsche next. F to V to P
here ya go: Home - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

 

[Dom426h]

Then instead of buying any one of dozens of cars that have all the gizmos to cover their butt they want to change the only purist car built today - the Viper, into a nanny car too.

Tell em how it is Chuck

 

[Cop Magnet]

That's it. But people panic and let completely off immediately or even worse, slam on the brakes. Then instead of buying any one of dozens of cars that have all the gizmos to cover their butt they want to change the only purist car built today - the Viper, into a nanny car too.

So much for freedom.

I think you misunderstand the concept of economic freedom. It means buyers have the fredom to choose a brand that offers them what they want. It means the manufacturer has the freedom to put out a product that will generate sales. And it means you have the freedom to shop elsewhere if you don't like it.

Limiting the production of a manufacturer's car to keep it "pure" of the enhancements which a handful of people don't want has nothing to do with "freedom".

 

[Asp Man]

one of those guys

My viper is a Toy. Not an Investment.


I suggest finding a car you Love. Then you can keep it forever and never have to worry about how much your gonna lose when you flip it for the next best thing(or what you think is the next best thing) Judging by your posts, i assume you'll be moving to a porsche next. F to V to P
here ya go: Home - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

Agreed.
And..
Compare '97 F355 vs. '97 GTS, they both hold about 60 to 65% of orig. resale value.

 

[R993]

If you are looking for an interesting read check out this thread about the Porsche CGT and the use of net nannies.
I started it from page 2 but the whole thing is a good read. And oh, there is a Ferrari viewpoint as well.

CGT - Why the "monster" reputation? - Rennlist Discussion Forums

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

It means the manufacturer has the freedom to put out a product that will generate sales.

As long as it meets a gazillion federal mandates. That aint freedom in my book.

 

[jdeft1]

So fun to watch these threads. V10 torque...huge engine etc....

 

[shooter_t1]

So after reading this thread again I decided to include a quote directly from the Porsche website concerning the driving aid's on the GT3 RS.

"In addition to specific steering movements, the vehicle can now also be controlled with the throttle to drive very dynamically around curves. "

"In this mode both lateral dynamic control and the traction control functions are deactivated. The driver now has better control of the vehicle"

I think it's great, the people who have been building high performance vehicles for over 40 yrs say that without the nannies the driver has better control of the vehicle.

So again,
Instead of whining about the lack of nannies...learn how to drive.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

even the dinosaurs became extinct

At least they lasted 160 million years instead of less than 20.

 

[ViperGTS]

Off?

But the Porsche nannies turn on in a critical situation themselves...and "critical" is just a few threshold values used by the computer to judge "enough FUN" - no more!

And, if the ESP's are going to become mandatory in new cars, the OFF switch will be canceled anyway.