Stiffer springs for my Motons

[Kai SRT10]

I've been using 550# and 750# springs with my Motons for a while now.

I've been playing with suspension settings, and could not get things quite right. The car seemed just a little bit hesitant in the turns, with a little too much roll.

So, I took the opportunity (while my Motons were getting rebuilt) to try some stiffer springs. I've put in 700# fronts and 900# rears. (Thanks, Jon B for the quick turnaround by the way.)

I was concerned that the suspension would be very jarring over normal bumpy roads, but I've been pleasantly surprised so far in how tractable things are in daily driving. The car still is more comfortable than stock, and bumps and potholes are not bad. Response is definitely more crisp. Can't really tell how it has affected traction.

I haven't yet taken the car to the track. I will post track impressions when I get the chance to see how track handling and lap times are affected.

 

[Viper X]

Kai,

Those are pretty stiff springs for a car that sees double duty. I know a couple of guys that run them on their track cars but no one that I know runs them on the street.

When I was doing spring rate research, I was told by a few knowledgeable sources that if you go too stiff up front, the car will push more and won't brake quite as well. I'm running 500 / 800 now and find it works pretty well but I don't have any downforce ..... yet. I have upgraded my sway bars and that helps turn in and controls roll better.

I would love to know what you think of these spring rates on the track as I have a set of 8 inch 700s / 900s that I'm thinking of putting on my 01 GTS ACR with Motons.

Dan

 

[Nader]

I have heard that you can run some additional pressure in the cannisters to raise the spring rates. Right now i am running 175 lbs in all four corners. Anyone else hear the same?

 

[Kai SRT10]

I have heard that you can run some additional pressure in the cannisters to raise the spring rates. Right now i am running 175 lbs in all four corners. Anyone else hear the same?

Raising cannister pressure will increase bump damping and decrease rebound damping. You can go as high as 300psi.

 

[Kai SRT10]

So far, I'm pretty happy with street performance. I live at the end of a long, washboard dirt road, so my suspension gets a work out every time I drive the car. No jarring or loss of control even on bad road surfaces. Like I said, I haven't yet tracked the car, so I don't know what these rates will do to my traction at speed. I had stiffer sway bars (off of Tommy Archer's comp coupe), but didn't like them. The car tended to skid, rather than take a set. I'm still experimenting with damper settings.

Kai,

Those are pretty stiff springs for a car that sees double duty. I know a couple of guys that run them on their track cars but no one that I know runs them on the street.

When I was doing spring rate research, I was told by a few knowledgeable sources that if you go too stiff up front, the car will push more and won't brake quite as well. I'm running 500 / 800 now and find it works pretty well but I don't have any downforce ..... yet. I have upgraded my sway bars and that helps turn in and controls roll better.

I would love to know what you think of these spring rates on the track as I have a set of 8 inch 700s / 900s that I'm thinking of putting on my 01 GTS ACR with Motons.

Dan

 

[Nader]

Kai what pressure are you running in yours prior to the new springs and now with the new springs? What settnig do you have the motons set on for the street with both setups?

 

[viperbilliam]

No kidding with those stiff as* springs?! So if you drive over a bunch of little bumps (or ridges) in the road they don't make your glasses bounce up and down on your nose?

 

[Kai SRT10]

Kai what pressure are you running in yours prior to the new springs and now with the new springs? What settnig do you have the motons set on for the street with both setups?

I was running 220psi cannister pressure with the old springs, and 150 psi now. So far, that seems about right, as with the stiffer springs, I will need less bump damping and more rebound damping.

Still playing with the motons. Currently, bump is set to 2, with rebound at 3. (same at front and rear.) These settings seem to work well for casual driving, but I haven't had the chance to really open it up yet. I'll have a chance to explore some deserted Eastern Colorado country roads next week. I've found that I need to drastically increase rebound settings at higher speeds, so I may increase rebound a click or two based on how the car behaves at 120+. Then, I will need to take the car out on the twisty canyon roads and see how it does there (got to get up early to avoid the traffic.)

It will likely take me several weeks of tweaking in various venues to dial in the moton settings. I will post again when I get things working well (or figure out that it doesn't work.)

 

[Viper X]

My cannister pressure is set at 200 right now and I'm going to lower it a bit to try and get more rebound control on my GTS. The car is currently a bit bouncy for me.

220 lbs may have been a bit high considering your former spring rate.

On my SRTC, I set the cannister pressure at 160 and it seems to work pretty well. I'm using bump of 2, rebound or 3 also with 500 F / 800 R spring rates.

I tried the comp coupe sway bars on my SRTC and they made the ride so stiff on the street that is was uncomfortable for me. You might try just the rear cc sway bar (I think the 2008 car is doing this) and keep the front SRT sway bar OE.

Getting these cars dialed in for individual drivers is a challenge. Anxious to hear your preferences.

Good luck,

Dan

 

[jpas]

I have been running 650 up front and 900 in the rear with the Penske's. They ride awesome, the only issue is with the 900's in the rear and the spring in the fully lowered position it is just a little lower then stock. I guess I added the shocks for the performance not to slam it.

They are not to bumpy on wash board surfaces, you just need to dail in the rebound setting.

 

[jpas]

My cannister pressure is set at 200 right now and I'm going to lower it a bit to try and get more rebound control on my GTS. The car is currently a bit bouncy for me.

220 lbs may have been a bit high considering your former spring rate.

On my SRTC, I set the cannister pressure at 160 and it seems to work pretty well. I'm using bump of 2, rebound or 3 also with 500 F / 800 R spring rates.

I tried the comp coupe sway bars on my SRTC and they made the ride so stiff on the street that is was uncomfortable for me. You might try just the rear cc sway bar (I think the 2008 car is doing this) and keep the front SRT sway bar OE.

Getting these cars dialed in for individual drivers is a challenge. Anxious to hear your preferences.

Good luck,

Dan

Hi Dan, where did you obtain the CC sway bars?

 

[Nader]

Can someone explain how the cannister pressure controls bump and rebound at an inverse rate. From what it sounds like, the higher the pressure the more bump dampening and the less rebound. I assume bump dampening is the shock compressing and the rebound is the shock expanding again.

 

[2000_Black_RT10]

deleted, sorry, ignore this reply..

 

[jpas]

Can someone explain how the cannister pressure controls bump and rebound at an inverse rate. From what it sounds like, the higher the pressure the more bump dampening and the less rebound. I assume bump dampening is the shock compressing and the rebound is the shock expanding again.

The cannister settings and pressure only effects the compression characteristics of the shocks. It will also have a small effect of the rebound. Rebound is adjusted with the external shock adjustment, the shim stack and the piston selection.

It is best to keep the canister pressure around 175 to 200psi and use the external adjustments to setup the car.

If you have your front canister in your engine compartment, the pressure will rise as the engine bay temps increase. So you could go from 200psi at ambient temps to 300psi at full engine temps.

 

[Nader]

You about those figures? The only reason i ask is because why would the professionals running the Comp Coupes with Motons mount them in the the engine bay?

 

[Kai SRT10]

The cannister settings and pressure only effects the compression characteristics of the shocks. It will also have a small effect of the rebound. Rebound is adjusted with the external shock adjustment, the shim stack and the piston selection.

It is best to keep the canister pressure around 175 to 200psi and use the external adjustments to setup the car.

If you have your front canister in your engine compartment, the pressure will rise as the engine bay temps increase. So you could go from 200psi at ambient temps to 300psi at full engine temps.

I had a long talk last week with Lex Carson, the US Moton rep. He was the one who told me that reducing cannister pressure would increase rebound dampening. He said that going from 220 to 150 would be similar to turning up rebound dampening by one or two clicks on a club sport.

 

[jpas]

You about those figures? The only reason i ask is because why would the professionals running the Comp Coupes with Motons mount them in the the engine bay?

Yes the CC's mount them on the side of the engine bay, under the heavily vented hood. Airflow makes a night and day difference. Try driving your car hard for half an hour, then let it sit for a few minutes with the hood closed and then measure the canister pressures.

 

[jpas]

I had a long talk last week with Lex Carson, the US Moton rep. He was the one who told me that reducing cannister pressure would increase rebound dampening. He said that going from 220 to 150 would be similar to turning up rebound dampening by one or two clicks on a club sport.

Yes, that is correct as the flow rate / pressure of the oil back to the shock is reduced. However it has a much greater effect on the compression setting. Keep in mind that the high speed rebound is mainly controlled by the shim stack and the piston setting followed by the external adjustment.

I prefer the Penske's as their Club Sport equivalent has 26 rebound settings and 16 compression settings. The problem with the Penske's is there is no "standard" setup they offer for the Viper like the Motons, so you are relying on the person who builds them to spec out the shim stack and pistons.

 

[Bugeater]

I run 900 front 1100 rear with the Moton 3-ways. 220 pounds pressure. Dont see alot of seat time on the street tho... When I do its those "bed the brake" runs and its surprising its not more of a painful ride than it is. Maybe its the adrenaline masking a crappy ride...

 

[Kai SRT10]

As promised, here's a long term update on my stiffer springs.

I still like them.

They are fine on the street, and great on the track. My laptime on my local road course improved from 1:56 to 1:49 since putting the stiffer springs on. Not all of this improvement is due to the springs (I'm becoming more familiar with the track) but the car is definitely more responsive and corners very flat now with minimal roll. Traction doesn't seem to have suffered.

After much experimentation,, I've got my Motons set at 2 bump and 3 rebound (on a scale of 0 to 6)

 

[Viper X]

Hey Kai,

At what cannister pressure?

I'm running the race Motons on my GTS. They have 15 or so settings for compression and rebound. I'm currently at 8C /10R front and 9C / 12 R rear with 175 psi in the cannister.

After hearing that, I think I'll switch to 700 F / 900 R springs in my GTS. I've got an event coming up the weekend after Thanksgiving at Buttonwillow (twisty track). Increased spring rates should help.

Jpas,

Check with Viper Race Headquarters. You can buy Comp Coup parts directlyl from them. Also, Archer Racing will often have a set of CC sway bars.

Dan

 

[Canyon707]

There certainly seems to be more mystery in suspension than engine building. Anyone ever heard of aldan eagle shocks?

 

[HI-NOS-Viper]

Im sure a simple question for most, but are the Motons the truly best shock system for the GenIII?

 

[Kai SRT10]

Cannister pressure is 175psi

Hey Kai,

At what cannister pressure?

I'm running the race Motons on my GTS. They have 15 or so settings for compression and rebound. I'm currently at 8C /10R front and 9C / 12 R rear with 175 psi in the cannister.

After hearing that, I think I'll switch to 700 F / 900 R springs in my GTS. I've got an event coming up the weekend after Thanksgiving at Buttonwillow (twisty track). Increased spring rates should help.

Jpas,

Check with Viper Race Headquarters. You can buy Comp Coup parts directlyl from them. Also, Archer Racing will often have a set of CC sway bars.

Dan

 

[Kai SRT10]

Im sure a simple question for most, but are the Motons the truly best shock system for the GenIII?

Moton, KW, and Penske all make good shocks for the Gen III. Moton is probably the most popular, but that doesn't necessarily make them the best.

 

[Nader]

I recently contacted Lex at Moton about setup and tuning and recommend anyone either running Motons or contemplating a new suspension set up to contact him Directly. He is a really great guy and extremely knowledgeable.

Yesterday he cleared up some confusion about cannister pressure and the affects on the suspension. Basically a 12 lbs change in psi, results in roughly 5lbs of of spring rate - or lifting force. you can go as low at 100 psi or as high as 300 psi.
.

 

[HI-NOS-Viper]

Moton, KW, and Penske all make good shocks for the Gen III. Moton is probably the most popular, but that doesn't necessarily make them the best.

I recently contacted Lex at Moton about setup and tuning and recommend anyone either running Motons or contemplating a new suspension set up to contact him Directly. He is a really great guy and extremely knowledgeable.

Yesterday he cleared up some confusion about cannister pressure and the affects on the suspension. Basically a 12 lbs change in psi, results in roughly 5lbs of of spring rate - or lifting force. you can go as low at 100 psi or as high as 300 psi.
.

Thanks to the both of you for your responses. I truly love this site. I have just heard so much about the motons, especially through Nader who has a truly amazing setup, and haven't really heard much about the other systems, just prices here and there. I figured you get what you pay for and saw how much more the Motons were compared to the others I figured there was a reason because they are nitrogen systems and so easily adjustable, etc. I will give Lex a call about the Motons. This may be my Christmas present. We shall see. That would be great of course if i can just get my Fiancee to see how important these are for us, I will just have to explain the extreme safety we get out of these, how they can turn no problem, etc of course going speed limit, say 40mph around a turn with no problem I bet she would love that Also thanks to this site my future upgrade idea mod list is growing and growing extremely fast. Whoever gets my business to install all of the goodies I will be getting should get good buisness. I plan on having a BEAST in the end. Aparently Nitrous was not enough, that or I just have too much time out here in Iraq and love looking at Viper goodies and say to myself, hmm, i could use that, and talk myself into why I all of a sudden need it. Ok sorry to highjack this thread guys. Back to the Motons

 

[Viper X]

Installed the 700 F / 900 R springs Saturday.

Adjusted ride height today - I'm pretty close to where I was.

Car definitely turns in flatter and stronger. Feels stickier.

Had to turn the shock settings up a bit to try and control the stronger springs, specificallly the rebound. This makes the ride a bit stiffer on the street. Wouldn't want to take a long ride on the street with this set up.

It sure feels like it will work better at the track.

I'll let you know.

Dan

 

[REDSLED]

Hey Kai,
I've got an event coming up the weekend after Thanksgiving at Buttonwillow (twisty track). Increased spring rates should help.
J
Dan

There will be several Comp Coupes there as well as 4-5 racing GTS's there that weekend. I will be in the Red GTS #7 in Oreca livery.

-Jonathan

 

[Viper X]

Cool,

My GTS is a street car with a few track items.

See you there Jonathan.

Dan