The current and future state of Viper sales and technology

[Nine Ball]

I also LOL when people compare MSRP pricing of a brand new vehicle, with years old, depreciated, used exotic pricing. That means nothing to those shoppers who prefer new vehicles. You'll find that most people confuse "price is too high" with "I can't afford it.". Nobody likes to admit when they can't afford something, so they blame the price being too high. Human (internet) nature.

 

[Free2go]

Yes, if somebody says the price is too high...they can't afford it. We know this to be true on and off the internet. There are those as well who only buy used because they believe that only a dealership can own a new car. The second you buy it it's a used car. I have customers who are multi millionaires who have NEVER purchased a new vehicle...period.

 

[sunsalem]

Yes they are cool but it comes down to MONEY! They are just not selling. I think they will be done after 2015.Fiat Chrysler are in the business to make $$$$ !!!!

Sergio agrees.

Was on that road a few years back. And you got to drive a Viper on it. Bastard.

Sorry, my bad....

 

[DMan]

I'm just not believing the price thing.

When they first released and everyone jumped on the $140k figure like it was the only price for a viper, thank you mags. and it was chanted how at $100k it was helluva deal, at $140k no one would buy. There are a ton of vipers out there new, with a couple of nice options, in the $85-100k range, probably 50% out there are in this "selling price" range. And they're not selling.

I still think, when you have mags saying the car is sketchy on the track, slower than the "old vette", pieces fly off at a testing, comes in behind an ****** in a drivers'-car testing, etc, etc., it might as well not exist outside the viper community. And we have SRT talking out of both sides these days, at the beginning it was targeting new owners who wanted more lux, then Ralph says we're looking for track-rats that's who buys vipers, but kill the track package, and it goes on & on. The viper persona is muddy'd up now IMO. It's an incredible, awesome car that has suffered the worst marketing and launch fiasco's possible.

They need commercials for this car, as the flag ship of Dodge (and can we not use Fiat-Chrysler, just hearing the proper name of this Netherlands company makes me vomit a litte in my mouth), ripping the surface of the earth apart.

 

[Guscrowell]

One thing will sell the new Vipers for sure, an automatic tranny. I don't want one, but they have to do it if they want to sell, one with paddle shifters, something like Ferrari or Mercedes. People are too lasty these days.

 

[kenphjr]

sometimes they are lazy also

One thing will sell the new Vipers for sure, an automatic tranny. I don't want one, but they have to do it if they want to sell, one with paddle shifters, something like Ferrari or Mercedes. People are too lasty these days.

 

[sunsalem]

I'm just not believing the price thing.

When they first released and everyone jumped on the $140k figure like it was the only price for a viper, thank you mags. and it was chanted how at $100k it was helluva deal, at $140k no one would buy. There are a ton of vipers out there new, with a couple of nice options, in the $85-100k range, probably 50% out there are in this "selling price" range. And they're not selling.

I still think, when you have mags saying the car is sketchy on the track, slower than the "old vette", pieces fly off at a testing, comes in behind an ****** in a drivers'-car testing, etc, etc., it might as well not exist outside the viper community. And we have SRT talking out of both sides these days, at the beginning it was targeting new owners who wanted more lux, then Ralph says we're looking for track-rats that's who buys vipers, but kill the track package, and it goes on & on. The viper persona is muddy'd up now IMO. It's an incredible, awesome car that has suffered the worst marketing and launch fiasco's possible.

+1

One thing will sell the new Vipers for sure, an automatic tranny. I don't want one, but they have to do it if they want to sell, one with paddle shifters, something like Ferrari or Mercedes.

Heck, Ferrari no longer even offers manuals in their cars.
More than 90% of Lambos are ordered with autos.

BTW, The new Z06 is coming in both flavors.
I saw a poll conducted at one of the Vette forums asking which trans. buyers will chose.
More are going for the auto than the manual.

It would seem the 3rd pedal is on its way out.

 

[Free2go]

The Viper has to make a quantum leap forward. It has to be head and shoulders beyond the new Z06 in performance and technology. There can be NO question about its superiority. If you have a car that smokes the hell out of everything and costs around $200k, people will buy it.....it won't be me but people will buy it.

 

[Bruce H.]

I wonder what percentage of their owners can drive stick. Most buy them as a fashion accessory and paddle shifters are all the rage now. A friend is a driving coach with the local Ferrari club and he's amazed how little buyers know about cars and driving. Good call on the part of Ferrari, and even Lambo buyers must know their limitations

 

[patgilm]

I'm one of the few but for a weekend car give me a manual. To me it is just more engaging/fun. I don't care if the DCT is faster, if the GTR was offered in a manual I would have gotten that. I like driving my GTR and yes it is actually fun to drive but when I am doing normal driving in auto mode it is quite boring and shifts to the highest gear way too early. Ask me why not put it in manual mode? Well if I am going to be lazy, I may as well go all out and be really lazy. Flipping a paddle in normal driving is just as boring as not flipping at all. I just feel driving a manual is more fun to me at any speed.

 

[klamathpro]

I'm one of the few but for a weekend car give me a manual. To me it is just more engaging/fun. I don't care if the DCT is faster, if the GTR was offered in a manual I would have gotten that. I like driving my GTR and yes it is actually fun to drive but when I am doing normal driving in auto mode it is quite boring and shifts to the highest gear way too early. Ask me why not put it in manual mode? Well if I am going to be lazy, I may as well go all out and be really lazy. Flipping a paddle in normal driving is just as boring as not flipping at all. I just feel driving a manual is more fun to me at any speed.

You are probably one of those people that never used launch control in manual mode. Auto mode is there if you need it, but you should never need it. Grow a pair and go race that thing and drive it like it was meant to be driven. And turn off the VCD, and do a roll run against a GT500 or a ZL1 and wake yourself up. Stop being lazy. Paddles are there to make you shift faster, not be lazy.

 

[sunsalem]

Paddles are there to make you shift faster, not be lazy.

Well said.

I find it amusing when someone says paddle shifting is for the leisure set....

 

[Jog]

I still believe in my heart that the issue is pricing...But the answer isn't to take short cuts or come with a cheap plastic interior to lower production costs. The Viper is and will always be Dodge's Halo vehicle....So why destroy an icon by cheapening it by the use of substandard parts. The cheap plastic dashboard was one the of the biggest complainants with Gen. III & IV owners..,, so why go back to that?!?...

The solution is....create an 8 Cylinder Viper!!! This would lower the MSRP of the vehicle to around 90k making it more competitive with Z06 and GTR clients. And you avoid destroying the lineage buy cheapening the interior with plastic parts. The beautiful thing about having an 8 Cylinder model, is that it allows for creativity. It can be designed as more of a daily driver and you can offer an automatic transmission and AWD as an option. An SRT-8 Viper can still be modified to produce at least 500 horsepower making it a creditable threat on the streets. The 10 Cylinder models can still be produced for traditional Viper lovers and Track enthusiasts....I guarantee you that having an 8 cylinder model would turn a profit without destroying the lineage and would also make the Viper affordable to many new prospective buyers...

 

[SnakeBitten]

I still believe in my heart that the issue is pricing...But the answer isn't to take short cuts or come with a cheap plastic interior to lower production costs. The Viper is and will always be Dodge's Halo vehicle....So why destroy an icon by cheapening it by the use of substandard parts. The cheap plastic dashboard was one the of the biggest complainants with Gen. III & IV owners..,, so why go back to that?!?...

The solution is....create an 8 Cylinder Viper!!! This would lower the MSRP of the vehicle to around 90k making it more competitive with Z06 and GTR clients. And you avoid destroying the lineage buy cheapening the interior with plastic parts. The beautiful thing about having an 8 Cylinder model, is that it allows for creativity. It can be designed as more of a daily driver and you can offer an automatic transmission and AWD as an option. An SRT-8 Viper can still be modified to produce at least 500 horsepower making it a creditable threat on the streets. The 10 Cylinder models can still be produced for traditional Viper lovers and Track enthusiasts....I guarantee you that having an 8 cylinder model would turn a profit without destroying the lineage and would also make the Viper affordable to many new prospective buyers...

I'm confused. Cheap plastic interior "IS" the Vipers lineage. The G5 broke from that lineage. So going back to cheap interior "would" be in harmony with the Vipers lineage. I don't want them to do that however. I love the G5's interior and I think future Vipers should evolve from the current standard.

Also a V8 "would" destroy the Vipers lineage so how would adding it "not" destroy the Vipers lineage by making it Vette-like?

What the Viper needs is for Fiat to give the Viper program a real R&D budget with the addition of forward thinking engineers and a real marketing team. Its clear from the direction/demographic they wanted to take the G5 that the Viper is no longer viable as a bare-bones supercar. So if it survives it just can't go back to what it was if sales are the goal imho.

 

[SnakeBitten]

It seems to me that there are only two options for Fiat:

Leave the Viper the way it is, which will end in the death of the program OR release some real R&D money into the program and let the car become a real threat to Porsche since this was obviously one of the corporate goals with the G5.

Ferrari doesn't need to stoop down to compete with Porsche so let the Viper do that by giving it a real chance at that demographic. If the SRT did so much with such comparatively little money why not give Ralph and company a real chance at Porsche Sergio?

 

[patgilm]

You are probably one of those people that never used launch control in manual mode. Auto mode is there if you need it, but you should never need it. Grow a pair and go race that thing and drive it like it was meant to be driven. And turn off the VCD, and do a roll run against a GT500 or a ZL1 and wake yourself up. Stop being lazy. Paddles are there to make you shift faster, not be lazy.

You are correct, I haven't launched it but wouldn't that only be fun in a straight line? What about spirited driving on back roads, how would launch control make it more fun for me there? I am not saying that the car isn't fast, I am just stating my opinion that I like manual cars even if they are slower. One thing I can say about the tranny is that all the fuss about it being clunky, loud and not daily driveable is not true to me as I don't notice any of it and I drive in RRR mode 100% of the time. Again, the Z06 will come in auto and manual and even though the auto would be faster, I would still choose the manual.

 

[MoparMap]

The Viper has to make a quantum leap forward. It has to be head and shoulders beyond the new Z06 in performance and technology. There can be NO question about its superiority. If you have a car that smokes the hell out of everything and costs around $200k, people will buy it.....it won't be me but people will buy it.

The main problem with this though is that I think it will kill a huge amount of the following of the car. How many of us bought our Vipers because we knew it was an amazing car for the money and within our grasp to have such an impressive car if we just saved up a little here and there? I would love to have an Aventador or Murcielago, I love the way they look, but even in 20 years time with depreciation I doubt they will ever be in the price range I would ever consider paying for a car. If I'm luckly I might one day have the money to be able to actually buy one, but I don't think I would because I don't think I would consider that a good use of said fictional money. I bought my Viper for the same cost as a Challenger that had been on the lot for over a year and less than a new spec'd out one. Vipers seem like one of the best kept secrets out there. Supercar performance for family sedan money (for older ones at least). The new car's performance already puts it in the same league as most supercars out there, so doubling the price just to make it a clear winner would alienate a large majority of current Viper lovers, and in the end you're still trying to sell a Dodge to someone shopping for Italian pedigree.

 

[Jog]

" Also a V8 "would" destroy the Vipers lineage so how would adding it "not" destroy the Vipers lineage by making it Vette-like? "

Now I'm confused...How would creating an SRT-8 Viper be making it Vette-like?....The GTR has a 6 cylinder engine...Does that make it a Porsche-like?

The Viper will NEVER be anything like a Vette. An 8 cylinder version involves creativity and thinking outside of the box...Which is just what Dodge needs to promote the car.

 

[Jog]

" The main problem with this though is that I think it will kill a huge amount of the following of the car. How many of us bought our Vipers because we knew it was an amazing car for the money and within our grasp to have such an impressive car if we just saved up a little here and there? I would love to have an Aventador or Murcielago, I love the way they look, but even in 20 years time with depreciation I doubt they will ever be in the price range I would ever consider paying for a car. If I'm luckly I might one day have the money to be able to actually buy one, but I don't think I would because I don't think I would consider that a good use of said fictional money. I bought my Viper for the same cost as a Challenger that had been on the lot for over a year and less than a new spec'd out one. Vipers seem like one of the best kept secrets out there. Supercar performance for family sedan money (for older ones at least). The new car's performance already puts it in the same league as most supercars out there, so doubling the price just to make it a clear winner would alienate a large majority of current Viper lovers, and in the end you're still trying to sell a Dodge to someone shopping for Italian pedigree. "

AGREED!!......This is why I believe an SRT-8 Viper is the answer...

 

[DMan]

You can buy a brand new viper, with no compromise on cylinders or HP, for $90k-$95k, even with some options. They still are barely selling. It's not the answer.

A V8 wouldn't be cheaper, since they can't fit one in the chassis and so it'd require a whole new car design, which they couldn't afford to do with the gen5, how can they afford to do it now??

 

[patgilm]

I think if they would have just come out with the TA (but not call it a TA) but in any color and got rid of the base model and GTS maybe they would have been okay. One kick ass model, somewhat reasonably priced if you could negotiate near $105k new and new gearing that would allow it to run 10's on stock tires and still perform well on a track. Maybe this would have helped things for a few years until they could make the argument to invest in a DCT set-up for those that want that. All I know is that in its current configuration it is all but dead and it will be a hard case to try and convince the higher ups to invest any more money in the car based on a hunch that if they did make some changes it would sell.

 

[pathoguy]

You can buy a brand new viper, with no compromise on cylinders or HP, for $90k-$95k, even with some options. They still are barely selling. It's not the answer

Starting at the above and correct price point and significant price-reduction to reach the same number will usually produce very different sales results.

Many are waiting to see if the downward pricing continues and also heavy discounting does not help the car's image.

 

[Jog]

You can buy a brand new viper, with no compromise on cylinders or HP, for $90k-$95k, even with some options. They still are barely selling. It's not the answer

Starting at the above and correct price point and significant price-reduction to reach the same number will usually produce very different sales results.

Many are waiting to see if the downward pricing continues and also heavy discounting does not help the car's image.

Agreed!!!.....Building a car the costs 140k then lowering it 100k because you can't sell it....Is a lot different than building a car that initially costs 100k.

Simply put...When you build a car that costs more...And you sell it for less because you cannot make a profit...means that you are operating at a loss...

 

[Jog]

" A V8 wouldn't be cheaper, since they can't fit one in the chassis and so it'd require a whole new car design, which they couldn't afford to do with the gen5, how can they afford to do it now?? "

Why would an 8 cylinder not fit in the current chassis?...Last I checked....An 8 cylinder block was smaller than a 10 cylinder engine block.

 

[FrankBarba]

I let two track friends drive mine at speed after taking a few laps with me first. They were both advanced level drivers that I knew well and they knew the particular tracks very well. Did you drive your other Vipers on track before buying them? Great opportunity if you did. I was fortunate to have randy Pobst anwer my questions because I couldn't even see one, never mind sit in or even drive on the street. What do you find missing in your existing Vipers that you would like to see in your next one?

BruceH....In another three I EXPLAINED TO BOB PANTAX why i no longer drive street cars. Due to Tickets, loss of license & excessive Insurance costs. When i purchased my first 2 vipers i turned the 1995 into a Bad Ass Road Racer. Once we had it dialed in we won so many races & championships that were were asked to move into a different class with an inferior car. i then purchased my GTS too many tickets & loss of license again....I DEDICED THEN TO KEEP IT ON THE TRACK.

UNTIL you can prove to me that my Comp Coupe is an inferior track car compared to your GENV i will continue to drive this or other vehicles for the track. Glad you were able to speak with Mr. Probst I'm sure he is a well of information. I only asked to drive
someone else's GENV so i could see if i'm missing anything, so far i don't think so, and sounds like your not up for the test drive.

Originally Posted by FrankBarba
BruceH or anyone else that tracks your GenV. Can i use your car for a HPDE? May be get my a$$ in a GEN V
to see what i'm missing from my other Vipers. Can't see spending north of 110K for a Track Viper without a Test Drive.
Come on guys with GEN V's set up to the plate. I will pay for tires, gas, brakes and anything else that might break
on your GEN V while i'm putting it thru true Track Conditions.



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http://forums.viperclub.org/threads.../newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3255926&noquote=1​

 

[MoparMap]

I think if they would have just come out with the TA (but not call it a TA) but in any color and got rid of the base model and GTS maybe they would have been okay. One kick ass model, somewhat reasonably priced if you could negotiate near $105k new and new gearing that would allow it to run 10's on stock tires and still perform well on a track. Maybe this would have helped things for a few years until they could make the argument to invest in a DCT set-up for those that want that. All I know is that in its current configuration it is all but dead and it will be a hard case to try and convince the higher ups to invest any more money in the car based on a hunch that if they did make some changes it would sell.

I found it interesting that pretty much every review of the TA was singing its praises and saying that "this is what the Gen 5 should have been from day 1". For the most part I didn't really think the TA was all that different. I'm pretty sure most of the changes are in the suspension setup, not really anything else. I know there is some aero on it, but it's not really "race car" aero like the ACR was. It really doesn't seem like the two models should have had such a widely different opinion in reviews to me, but then again I guess I haven't driven them all to know.

 

[05Commemorative]

Difficult to say as they have not even sold all of the TA's and they were built in limited #'s.

I think if they would have just come out with the TA (but not call it a TA) but in any color and got rid of the base model and GTS maybe they would have been okay. One kick ass model, somewhat reasonably priced if you could negotiate near $105k new and new gearing that would allow it to run 10's on stock tires and still perform well on a track. Maybe this would have helped things for a few years until they could make the argument to invest in a DCT set-up for those that want that. All I know is that in its current configuration it is all but dead and it will be a hard case to try and convince the higher ups to invest any more money in the car based on a hunch that if they did make some changes it would sell.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Difficult to say as they have not even sold all of the TA's and they were built in limited #'s.

Really? I thought they were near sold out. I am actually surprised by that and it got great press both in the mags and the internet. So the TA gets great reviews and still hasn't sold out though they were limited editions. That doesn't make me feel good about the cars future at all.

 

[PDCjonny]

I see five of them on Tomball's site and that's just one dealer.

 

[Lawrenzo]

I found it interesting that pretty much every review of the TA was singing its praises and saying that "this is what the Gen 5 should have been from day 1". For the most part I didn't really think the TA was all that different. I'm pretty sure most of the changes are in the suspension setup, not really anything else. I know there is some aero on it, but it's not really "race car" aero like the ACR was. It really doesn't seem like the two models should have had such a widely different opinion in reviews to me, but then again I guess I haven't driven them all to know.

This-- the TA is .6 seconds faster around Laguna Seca with it's Aero advantage. The GTS is also a monster, yet people don't seem to appreciate it.

1.	SRT Viper TA	1:33.62	139	'13	649 / 1520	Randy Probst
2.	Chevrolet Corvette ZR1	1:33.70	138	'08	647 / 1530	Randy Pobst
3.	Dodge Viper SRT-10 ACR	1:33.92	138	'08	608 / 1536	Chris Winkler
4.	SRT Viper GTS	1:34.23	138	'13	649 / 1560	Randy Probst
5.	Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Z07 Package	1:34.43	137	'11	512 / 1394
6.	McLaren MP4-12C	1:34.50	137	'10	600 / 1434	Randy Pobst
7.	SRT Viper	1:34.63	137	'13	659 / 1520	Randy Probst
8.	Mercedes SLS AMG Black Series	1:35.03	136	'13	631 / 1550	Randy Pobst
9.	Devon GTX	1:35.08	136	0	659 / 0
10.	Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4	1:35.40	136	'11	700 / 1575	Randy Pobst
11.	Porsche 911 GT2 RS	1:35.56	136	'10	620 / 1370	Johannes van Overbee
12.	Chevrolet Corvette ZR1	1:35.80	135	'08	647 / 1530	Randy Pobst
13.	Ferrari 458 Italia	1:36.22	135	'09	570 / 1485	Randy Pobst
14.	Nissan GT-R	1:36.30	135	'12	550 / 1736	Randy Pobst
15.	Nissan GT-R	1:36.35	135	'11	530 / 1736
16.	Lexus LFA	1:36.39	135	'10	560 / 1609
17.	Audi R8 GT	1:36.39	135	'10	560 / 1520
18.	Nissan GT-R	1:36.63	134	'12	550 / 1736	Randy Pobst
19.	Porsche 911 GT3 RS	1:36.77	134	'10	450 / 1400
20.	Porsche 911 Turbo	1:37.80	133	'09	500 / 1570
21.	Ferrari F12 Berlinetta	1:38.04	132	'12	740 / 1725	Randy Pobst
22.	Chevrolet Corvette Stingray	1:38.28	132	'14	461 / 1577	Randy Pobst