rcl4668
Enthusiast
Mark -- thanks for posting the numbers; when you post the dyno results for the car with the Belanger system, would it be possible to quantify how much hp and torque difference the ECU produces?
/Rich
/Rich
tunning 08
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A part number would be helpful too.
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
If I use the numbers we have from the Belanger only cars then see the difference you should get an idea of the benefits beyond what I have described above.
I have a PN but there is no such thing in existence yet so it won't do you any good right now. When they start producing the real deal for sale I will have that number verified for you all along with the suggested pricing.
rcl4668
Enthusiast
Mark --
Just so I am understanding you, does this mean that you will be taking a car with the Belanger setup, dynoing it without the Mopar ECU and then dynoing the same car again after the ECUinstall? Thanks.
/Rich
Grant
Viper Owner
Mark, does the new controller allow the revs to hit 6750, or 6500? My ACR hits 6250 stock.
Either way, 250 extra RPM is great, especially for track use! That combined with the extra area under the curve is wonderful. I'd really wanted a few more revs - a standalone is looking less attractive now.
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
Rich,
We took a completely stock 1400 mile ACR and baselined it on the dyno. That is the first number on those sheets I posted. The better number is the added Mopar PCM. I am taking the car today with the PCM AND the Belanger headers and Corsa catback to get the final numbers. Remember though that I will only have about 30 miles on the headers and PCM when we dyno so the actual numbers will get a little higher after some use. Maybe Dr. Bob will dyno again (at a different shop though) after a couple hundred more miles... Or I can just keep it here and do that Dr. Bob! hahahaha
Thanks again for allowing me to use your ACR for this SRT project Bob and you will receive a nice discount plus all the free dyno sheets you can shake a stick at!
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
Grant,
It will rev to 6500, the ACR we have only went to 6100 before the PCM so I wonder if yours is a fluke or just mis reading? Anyway yes the extra RPM will be nice. On a side note I noticed that the 08'- 09' cars instead of doing 149 mph in 4th now do 160! A little more now the RPM's are raised
.I guess what I mean by this is this car REALLY needs a better rear gear to liven it up in the upper gears where you drive the MOST. I would like to do a few more 3.55's in these because I really like the feel of all that torque in the upper 3 gears also! Just food for thought.
Grant
Viper Owner
I have PBox logs of my car hitting 90 mph in 2nd, and 163 in 4th. Based on the car's gearing and tire sizes, that indicates a 6250 RPM rev limit to me. Though I have had cars which read incorrectly in the past...
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Malu59RT
Enthusiast
60 in 1st? or 90 in 2nd?
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
Well I don't know every dyno sheet we have on the 08's says the rev limiter hits at 6100?
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
OK guys I just returned from the dyno and have the comparison sheets from stock, PCM, and PCM plus Belangers below. The gains did not seem as great as the first car we dyno-ed, BUT the calculations and corrections were different then (new dyno software) so it is not apples to apples from that time.
Even though the HP may not impress you much the usable RPM and TORQUE should. The car is an absolute animal on the road. It in essence feels like a Paxton car at 4000 rpm and up!
You cannot tell here but the A/F is flat 13.3-13.0 till 3900 rpm and then from 4600 rpm to redline it is 12.2-12.1 so there is not much left on the table reliability wise. I am going to talk with SRT though and see if that needs any tweaking at all.
Thanks,
Even though the HP may not impress you much the usable RPM and TORQUE should. The car is an absolute animal on the road. It in essence feels like a Paxton car at 4000 rpm and up!
You cannot tell here but the A/F is flat 13.3-13.0 till 3900 rpm and then from 4600 rpm to redline it is 12.2-12.1 so there is not much left on the table reliability wise. I am going to talk with SRT though and see if that needs any tweaking at all.
Thanks,
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Hi Mark. Since you used a Mustang dyno the conversion factor to flywheel is 1.25. The first two graphs are a little confusing. What is the peak HP without headers and with headers before applying the 1.25 conversion? Also, aren't you running a little lean based on the comments of the SRT Engineers regarding the engine's degree of being stressed and the fact that the pistons are derived from the SRT 8 engine? Just being super cautious.
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
Bob,
The new Mustang dyno software is using a correction factor of 1.10 and I have actually used the same numbers as Arrow does and we have almost identical out comes. This is the real reason we have been selected to help test this final product. That is why there is not an apples to apples comparison from the first set of headers or any of our S/C cars for that matter to the new software and correction factors. The new software converts to real ASE rear wheel numbers and then the factor we use per Arrow is 1.1, Hope I did not just cloud the answer worse...
The A/F is good at the 13.0 and I have just been told that the reason for the 12's after 4500 rpm is that there is a enrichment timer for the cooling of the pistons and exhaust valves after 12 seconds of WOT. This being said if I could have known this and did the dyno from a roll at 4500 rpm to WOT up to 6500 the HP increase would be substantially better.
I have another project in the works right now that we may be able to ADD on top of all this if it is approved but that's all I can say right now.
The new Mustang dyno software is using a correction factor of 1.10 and I have actually used the same numbers as Arrow does and we have almost identical out comes. This is the real reason we have been selected to help test this final product. That is why there is not an apples to apples comparison from the first set of headers or any of our S/C cars for that matter to the new software and correction factors. The new software converts to real ASE rear wheel numbers and then the factor we use per Arrow is 1.1, Hope I did not just cloud the answer worse...
The A/F is good at the 13.0 and I have just been told that the reason for the 12's after 4500 rpm is that there is a enrichment timer for the cooling of the pistons and exhaust valves after 12 seconds of WOT. This being said if I could have known this and did the dyno from a roll at 4500 rpm to WOT up to 6500 the HP increase would be substantially better.
I have another project in the works right now that we may be able to ADD on top of all this if it is approved but that's all I can say right now.
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
I don't know if this will work but it is my first attempt for now.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zeaQkw95jE[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4YlzDUgD_E[/media]
Sound is not that good but you get an idea of Belangers and the Corsa.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zeaQkw95jE[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4YlzDUgD_E[/media]
Sound is not that good but you get an idea of Belangers and the Corsa.
So bottom line, no pun intended, is that the 598HP with the Belangers using the 1.1 conversion factor is 657.8 HP at the flywheel. And the torque, which measured at 529 ft lbs at roughly 5000 RPM, using the 1.1 conversion factor, is 581.9 at the flywheel. Of course the difference in the torque curve is striking after 4200 RPM. Interesting. Sounds like must do Christmas and Hannukah mods, of course for off road use only, for '08s and, I assune, 09's. An MGW performance shift mechanism would facilitate more efficient shifting with the increased power - agree?
doctorbob
Enthusiast
Bob,
That is my car and it had all the goodies put on it....MGW shifter, motor mounts....the works...Bob
That is my car and it had all the goodies put on it....MGW shifter, motor mounts....the works...Bob
Malu59RT
Enthusiast
doctorbob
Enthusiast
Yep, great minds think alike.
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
I cant believe there have not been more posts on the numbers and dyno sheets. They are obviously watching the videos so I guess that is a good thing?
N2 Vipers
Enthusiast
Personally I was disappointed in the numbers, maybe others were expecting more also? MHO
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
Well like I said above, my first reaction was the same but now that I know somethings about how you would get that number higher by starting at a higher rpm so you don't get into the enrichment mode, the A/F would still be 13:1 and there should be considerably more power on top. If I get another crack at it I will try this and see what happens.
You have to admit though the torque curve is awesome and you really FEEL that when you are driving the most of the time.
Thanks for the post.
Malu59RT
Enthusiast
Can't admit it until I experience it. When should I send my car for the free Mopar PCM so I can experience it for myself ?
I am impressed with the dyno graph's Mark (especially in the mid-range). I think now we will need an actual cost, plus more feedback from owners that are driving the cars, to get more discussion. I think the topic was beat to death before you actually received the unit...explaining the lack of discussion now.
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rcl4668
Enthusiast
Can't admit it until I experience it. When should I send my car for the free Mopar PCM so I can experience it for myself ?
I am impressed with the dyno graph's Mark (especially in the mid-range). I think now we will need an actual cost, plus more feedback from owners that are driving the cars, to get more discussion. I think the topic was beat to death before you actually received the unit...explaining the lack of discussion now.
Agreed; I think the benefits of the ECU are tangible but for me it will depend on the price point of the product. Something in the $2,000-2,500 range is a little steep for me given the hp gain (15?) and torque gain (7?) and even considering increased tunability later. Hopefully we will find out pricing shortly.
/Rich
SSGViper
Enthusiast
Hey Mark, thanks so much for all your detailed posts. As always, we really appreciate all you do.
Now for my feedback, I'd like to see charts of just the Belanger without the Mopar Race ECU. I think maybe that is the part that will really show the true net worth of the new ECU. At this point, I am not convinced that spending $2000-$2500 (or whatever it costs) for the new ECU is going to get me much more than can be had with just the stock ECM and the Belanger system. They mention that increased tunability is a benefit of this new ECU but, honestly, what else can be done besides adding Belangers that won't stress the 08 engine beyond its already thin envelope.
As a side note, I am REALLY disappointed that we can't get a TSB to correct the 08 throttle response issue. The throttle response delay is unacceptable in a car of this caliber and we should not be forced into buying a expensive ECM upgrade that could potentially void the warranty to fix this issue. There is a definite delay between the time you punch the pedal and the RPMs jump. Very annoying to say the least but I can't say that it has taken away much from the overall experience in driving the 08
Now for my feedback, I'd like to see charts of just the Belanger without the Mopar Race ECU. I think maybe that is the part that will really show the true net worth of the new ECU. At this point, I am not convinced that spending $2000-$2500 (or whatever it costs) for the new ECU is going to get me much more than can be had with just the stock ECM and the Belanger system. They mention that increased tunability is a benefit of this new ECU but, honestly, what else can be done besides adding Belangers that won't stress the 08 engine beyond its already thin envelope.
As a side note, I am REALLY disappointed that we can't get a TSB to correct the 08 throttle response issue. The throttle response delay is unacceptable in a car of this caliber and we should not be forced into buying a expensive ECM upgrade that could potentially void the warranty to fix this issue. There is a definite delay between the time you punch the pedal and the RPMs jump. Very annoying to say the least but I can't say that it has taken away much from the overall experience in driving the 08
cheryl mccally
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I don't know if anyone else thinks the throttle response has always been terrible, but I do. This is my 3rd Viper and they have all had that problem compared to other cars. I really hate having less hp cars pull away from out of the corners while I'm sitting with my foot to the floor waiting for something good to happen.
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
This is the original Belanger sheet and even though it is with different dyno software with a correction factor of 1.25, (same dyno though) the curves you can see are much smoother with the controller Mopar is offering. If you look at the RWHP and Torque numbers they represent about the same gains just in different forms and numbers between the two software graphs.
Either way the actual USABLE HP and Torque are hugely improved with the headers and even more linear with the PCM installed along with them.
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N2 Vipers
Enthusiast
The worse part about the hesitation is when you are heel and toeing, trying to blip it while you are downshifting. By the time the engine rpms catch up, you are already in the gear and the clutch is out!
cobrapilot
Enthusiast
08 throttle response is terrible. I almost took it back until I was told that they were all like that. Makes driving the Paxton 06 way more enjoyable.
iron
Enthusiast
Above posts do not exactly motivate one to get a '08, do they?
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