Viper Fraud ! What legal action can one take ? Need Help!

viperrt96

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To start with I'm going to keep the names of those involved out of this post for now.

Here's what happened: A good friend of mine had been looking at buying a Viper for some time. He's never owned one before and only knows what I've told him and what he's read from this site. An excellent tool by the way. I educated him on what years had what options and he seemed to be fixated on an 01,02 RT10. He basically wanted the latest and last of the GenII's. He finally pulls the trigger on a 02 RT10. He looked at a couple of local ones for sale but decided to buy one from a dealer on Ebay. For some reason he felt the car would be better represented coming from a dealer than an individual. So......the car was advertised as a low mileage (12k) clean title car. I never saw the ad nor did I see any pics of it before he decided to go ahead and buy it. The car is from the Houston Texas area. Here's the VIN 1B3ER65E82V100938 and it's yellow. My friend said his bank ran a carfax report on it for him before issuing his payment to that dealer. Everything checked out until he took delivery here in Indiana and here's the problem(s). The car is far from being low mileage. It's actually a wreck rebuild and the odometer has most certainly been turned back. It's such a bad job that if you knew nothing about Vipers and saw this car. You would know that it's been rode hard and fixed wrong. I took pics yesterday and he's sending them to the dealer as he is currently disputing that the car was misrepresented. The dealer is saying pretty much tough. As is where is ! They're saying they were selling it for an individual and he wasn't making any money off of it. I'll post pics sometime tomorrow. The pics will make you sick as you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. What I told him that would be the easiest to prove is that the odometer is not actual. I know for a fact the cars mileage has been walked back. There's way too much wear and tear on the car for it to be a 12k mile car. The bad fix (wrecked) is another issue in itself. Here's my short list as first clues when he got it off of the trailer. 1.Parts of the dash missing 2. The check engine light on 3. The horn didn't work. Fuse pulled. When installed the horn would go off/on/off/on for no reason when you drove down the road. 4. The center console is re-upholstered (looks terrible) 5. Rivets on the rear quarters but in the door jamb striker area(They were not riveted there from the factory) 5. No hood liner. 6 . Too numerous plastic parts under the hood damaged/cracked. 7. Oil cooler up front repaired. 8. Wrong bolts holding on the bumber. The list goes on and on.

I told my friend I would post the info about the car for now in hopes someone on here might know it or know the history on it. Again it was last titled in Houston Texas. He will be more and likely talking to an attorney in the next few days if he can't get anywhere with the seller.
 

ViperTony

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You may be able to read the mileage off of the PCM and compare it against the odometer. I remember Chuck Tator showing me the mileage readout on his DRB scan tool for the Viper. Sorry to hear about this, its not a good feeling getting scammed like this. I'm really surprised an independent inspection wasn't performed by a qualified individual before bidding on the auction.
 

michaelnouri

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the car was a repo, go after the dealer bond, game over.

VIN: 1B3ER65E82V100938
Year: 2002
Make: Dodge
Model: Viper RT/10
Style/Body: Roadster 2D
Class: Sport Car - Upper Premium
Engine: 8.0L V10 MPI / SFI
Country of Assembly: United States
Vehicle Age: 6 year(s)
Calculated Owners: 3
Last Reported
Odometer Reading: 12,553
This vehicle's AutoCheck Score
85 88-94
This vehicle qualifies for Buyback Protection

About Buyback Protection
Section summaries
Title and ProblemCheck: Your vehicle checks out!
OdometerCheck: Your vehicle checks out!
Vehicle Use and EventCheck: Specific vehicle use(s) or events reported
Full History: Detailed information available

Title and ProblemCheck

Your Vehicle Checks Out! AutoCheck's database for this 2002 Dodge Viper RT/10 (1B3ER65E82V100938) shows no negative titles or other problems. When reported to AutoCheck, these events can indicate serious past damage or other significant problems.


0 Problem(s) Reported: 15 Title/Problem areas checked:
No abandoned title record
No damaged title or major damage incident record
No fire damaged title record
No grey market title record
No hail damage title record
No insurance loss title record
No junk or scrapped title record
No manufacturer buyback/lemon title record
No odometer problem title record
No rebuilt/rebuildable title record
No salvage title or salvage auction record
No water damaged title record
No NHTSA crash test record
No frame damage record
No recycling facility record

OdometerCheck

Your Vehicle Checks Out! AutoCheck examined the reported odometer readings reported to AutoCheck for this 2002 Dodge Viper RT/10 (1B3ER65E82V100938) and no indication of an odometer rollback or tampering was found. AutoCheck uses business rules to determine if reported odometer readings are significantly less than previously reported values. Not all reported odometer readings are used. Title and auction events also report odometer tampering or breakage.


0 Problem(s) Reported: Mileage Date Reported
59 08/24/2002
9,482 04/06/2004
9,482 04/06/2004
9,489 07/23/2004
10,462 06/22/2006
12,783 02/21/2008
12,553 03/12/2008 not included in rollback calculation

Vehicle Use and EventCheck

Information Reported! AutoCheck shows additional information reported to AutoCheck about how this 2002 Dodge Viper RT/10 (1B3ER65E82V100938)has been used and other events. This includes reported accidents and corrected or duplicate titles and storm area registrations.


1 Event(s) Reported: 6 Vehicle uses checked:
Fleet, rental and/or lease use record(s)
No taxi use record
No police use record
No government use record
No livery use record
No driver education record
3 Event(s) Reported: 10 Vehicle events checked:
No accident record reported through state agencies or independent sources
No corrected title record
No duplicate title record
Emission/safety inspection record(s)
Loan/Lien record(s)
No fire damage incident record
Repossessed record(s)
No theft record
No storm area registration/title record
No dealership or other service record

Full History
Below are the historical events for this vehicle listed in chronological order. Any discrepancies will be in bold text.
Report Run Date: 2008-12-15 22:39:06.768 EST
Vehicle: 2002 Dodge Viper RT/10 (1B3ER65E82V100938)
Event date Location Odometer reading Data Source Details
08/07/2002 HOUSTON, TX
Motor Vehicle Dept. REGISTRATION EVENT/RENEWAL
08/24/2002 HOUSTON, TX
59
Motor Vehicle Dept. TITLE (Title #:10131237480103152) (Lien Reported)
04/06/2004 TX
9,482
Auto Auction REPORTED AT AUTO AUCTION
04/06/2004 TX
9,482
Auto Auction AUCTION ANNOUNCED AS FLEET/LEASE
07/12/2004 RICHMOND, TX
Motor Vehicle Dept. REGISTRATION EVENT/RENEWAL
07/23/2004 RICHMOND, TX
9,489
Motor Vehicle Dept. TITLE (Title #:10174238178120354)
REPOSSESSED (Lien Reported) Reported registered/titled prior to storm event in FEMA designated storm area. We recommend a professional vehicle inspection to confirm no storm damage.
11/16/2005 RICHMOND, TX
Motor Vehicle Dept. TITLE (Title #:10174238178120354)
REPOSSESSED (Lien Reported)
06/22/2006 HOUSTON, TX
10,462
Motor Vehicle Dept. PASSED EMISSION INSPECTION
PASSED SAFETY INSPECTION
02/04/2008 HOUSTON, TX
Motor Vehicle Dept. REGISTRATION EVENT/RENEWAL
02/21/2008 TX
12,783
Auto Auction REPORTED AT AUTO AUCTION
03/12/2008 HOUSTON, TX
12,553
Motor Vehicle Dept. TITLE (Title #:10125939503085046)
 

dave6666

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Never buy a car blindly. It sounds like though that there may be some legal ground to stand on if the odometer has been tampered with. I think that's a crime.

Good luck. There are a few lawyers here. Real ones...

I just drive the golf cart!

:drinker:
 

kcobean

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If it checked out in Carfax, they have a buyback guarantee....get the ball rolling with them NOW, because the dealer is going to screw him.
 
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viperrt96

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Man that was fast ! Thanks Michaelnouri

I know if the car was ever taken to a Dodge dealer they'll have record of that too. That's what I'm hoping to get. That information is not usually for public use. I'll check to see if the mileage can be read off of the PCM. As I read the carfax report I can see where the bank wouldn't have thrown up any flags (I think) to the normal person who reads that report.
 

ViperTony

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Try giving Chuck Tator at Tator's Dodge a call. He look up the Viper's history for you using the VIN. What does the CarFax report show??
 
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viperrt96

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Man I only read down to this

Title and ProblemCheck

Your Vehicle Checks Out! AutoCheck's database for this 2002 Dodge Viper RT/10 (1B3ER65E82V100938) shows no negative titles or other problems. When reported to AutoCheck, these events can indicate serious past damage or other significant problems.

I didn't see the FEMA part of it. I'm on the phone with him right now telling him about that part of it. I still think it has way more miles on it than that.
 

RDunn

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doesnt matter if the dealer was selling for someone else, they sold it, so its on them....i know i own a dealership here in st.louis.

one of the reasons i dont do that
 

Steve-Indy

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" My friend said his bank ran a carfax report on it for him before issuing his payment to that dealer."

While most folks that I know would NOT rely on the bank to check out this report...it seems to me that your friend can also hold the bank "in the line of fire" so to speak.

It is sad to see someone fall into this kind of trap.

Hopefully, he can side step this car, then read a little more here on avoiding such situations...as most of the tricks and pitfalls have been posted here.
 

JeffTheViperMan

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Carfax is only as good as the information it's given. If a car is wrecked and no police report is issued, and the guy has his friend bubba fix it out in back of his double-wide, Carfax has NO way of knowing.

Now, the mileage report of 12K plus in March leads me to think that it's gotta be at least somewhat accurate. Kinda hard to put a lot of mileage on a Viper in 9 months. It sounds to me like someone wrecked it and tried to cover it up. I'm waiting to see the pics.

Jef
 

TAXIMAN1

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The VCA site should be your FIRST source, when looking to buy a viper. It's a shame everyone looks at these "****" prices on Ebay and believes they found the same (VCA) car at a much lower price. Believe me, you didnt... Bottom line, this dealer STOLE the car at auction because of all the paintwork. And in turn, was able to advertise it for a ridiculous price, I'm sure. I can almost assure you thats what happened.. And the buyer got what they paid for.

The carfax simply says "car was located IN a FEMA area" which means nothing. I would not want to own a repo, car as well, but it certainly does not justify a buy back either. If this car just had a bad repaint, and WAS NOT salvaged. (which is probably the case). Guess what, Your friend will be stuck with this car.. Its a used car purchased as-is, where-is. IF its salvage, flood,etc. Michael is correct, you probably can go after dealer bond. Good luck... This should be a good lesson for anyone who comes on here, bragging about how they stole a viper off Ebay for $35k with a clean title. You get what you pay for. I'm sorry to hear about this. As these GenII cars get older. Its getting more and more difficult to find one worth buying. Which WILL increase value on the pristine examples.
 

JonB

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...... He finally pulls the trigger on a 02 RT10. He looked at a couple of local ones for sale but decided to buy one from a dealer on Ebay. For some reason he felt the car would be better represented coming from a dealer than an individual. So......the car was advertised as a low mileage (12k) clean title car. I never saw the ad nor did I see any pics of it before he decided to go ahead and buy it. The car is from the Houston Texas area. Here's the VIN 1B3ER65E82V100938 and it's yellow. My friend said his bank ran a carfax report on it for him before issuing his payment to that dealer. Everything checked out until he took delivery here in Indiana and here's the problem(s). The car is far from being low mileage. It's actually a wreck rebuild and the odometer has most certainly been turned back. It's such a bad job that if you knew nothing about Vipers and saw this car. You would know that it's been rode hard and fixed wrong. .


Ive said it before, that big "FAX" company means NOTHING if there is no report.
NO NEWS is NO NEWS. We have purchased umpteen totalled Vipers, that offer a clean, 'buy-back guarantee' from that fax service ! Couple that with buying a Viper on Flea-Bay, without having a VCA member or Viper Tech here check it out first? Priceless........

{The PCM ticks off mileage in 100-mile recorded bytes......but THAT can be buggered with, too.}
 
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viperrt96

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I just got word from him that the seller has agreed to buy the car back minus shipping. My friend never titled the care here in Indiana so........He's suppose to ship it back when the money is refunded. I told him to take the loss as a blessing/lesson learned.

As promised I will post the pics of this car as a warning to others. Hopefully it will save someone else the trouble and the truth be known about this car
 

Dads Toy

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thanks for posting this as I am a future buyer. Very sorry to hear that your friend went through this. sounds like he might end up OK and only out a little.
 
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I just got word from him that the seller has agreed to buy the car back minus shipping. My friend never titled the care here in Indiana so........He's suppose to ship it back when the money is refunded. I told him to take the loss as a blessing/lesson learned.

As promised I will post the pics of this car as a warning to others. Hopefully it will save someone else the trouble and the truth be known about this car

Yes, take the deal and run FAST.
 

eucharistos

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I just got word from him that the seller has agreed to buy the car back minus shipping. My friend never titled the care here in Indiana so........He's suppose to ship it back when the money is refunded. I told him to take the loss as a blessing/lesson learned.

As promised I will post the pics of this car as a warning to others. Hopefully it will save someone else the trouble and the truth be known about this car

good news, could be much worse. :2tu:

:dunno: gas is cheap, if time permits, drive it back, good way to get behind the wheel time in a viper and may make the loss less of a loss :drive: :drive: :omg: :rolaugh: :drive: :drive: --> returned for refund :headbang:
 

Chrissss

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If it checked out in Carfax, they have a buyback guarantee....get the ball rolling with them NOW, because the dealer is going to screw him.
Their buyback guarantee only applies if they quote something in their report that is contrary to information that is reported to them. If the repo is not reported to them, just like any accidents, they are not responsible for any type of guarantee should a problem arise or be discovered. Thats why carfax/carcheck etc, is only just a tool, not an absolute.
 
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kcobean

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Their buyback guarantee only applies if they quote something in their report that is contrary to information that is reported to them. If the repo is not reported to them, just like any accidents, they are not responsible for any type of guarantee should a problem should arise or be discovered. Thats why carfax/carcheck etc, is only just a tool, not an absolute.

That's good to know. Thanks!
 

RTTTTed

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Buy a car through ebay and expect a 50% chance of getting screwed. I've never heard of an Ebay guarantee that actually saved someone a bad deal. I've lost money on ebay and know that doing ebay business means I'll be getting screwed every few times I buy.

One good way to get it is buy from someone that has puny numbers or lower reliability rating. Pair of "like new turbos" were so bad that even the housings were garbage. Guarantee was a day late. Bought a service manual and even though I filed an action on ebay it disappeared within 2 weeks and I was out another $59.

I would buy an ebay, but not until I actually saw the car in person. My Viper was $55K and there's no way I could afford to buy a POS so I paid after I saw and drove the car.

If your buddy gets his money back consider himself as super lucky and hopefully 'lesson learned'

Ted

Ted
 

bluesrt

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get ur money and then try to vise him for the shipping,has he only been in the business for a week,what is he 5 years old-doesnt know a nice car from a tractor!:bonker::bonker::bonker::curse::curse::curse::rant::rant::rant:
 

Vipuronr

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Wow, that is really bad. I bought a car from a wholesaler in N.C. and I must say, I was nervous...18 pictures, clean carfax, original owner dealer check and all. I did check that the wholesaler was listed with the Better Business Bureau and they are considered one of their premier dealers.

To that end, and I'm sorry didn't read all the posts in detail, I would contact the Better Business Bureau in that city - you can use them to pressure the dealer and may intervene as it looks to clearly be fraud/misrepresentation. With what I read in the other posts, I find it really hard to believe that a car expert (usually used car buyers for dealers are), didn't know the history of the car and therefore misrepresented.

Second, on that same note, I would call the Attorneys General Office for that city and file a formal complaint against the dealer. Many of the Lawyers at these offices will assist you as fraud is clearly in their area of responsibility.

With enough pressure from these offices, the dealer may think again about their position and take the car back. I don't know what is involved in this kind of transaction, but it is certainly worth the time and effort.

Next, if those avenues don't work and your friend has the time, I would search out a local law firm and go after the dealer for all costs, including lawyer, travel and time costs. I think you have a good shot at winning and therefore, the dealer (again) may find it better to just settle and take the car back. If they lose in court, it will cost them a lot more than just the cost of the car.

Hope that helps and I wish your friend all the luck.:2tu:

By the way, I will NEVER buy another car without seeing and driving it first. I was very lucky, but as you can see, it can go completely the other way!

Peter
 

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