Who Makes The Best Smooth Tubes?

[Vipuronr]

So, while keeping my '98 RT/10 pretty stock, I do want to change to smooth tubes.

Can anyone tell me who makes the best...also, I've seen a few cars that have red tubes and nice stainless clamps...any ideas?

Thanks!

Peter
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[ViperTony]

I purchased my smooth tubes from SnakeOyl. They are 5 ply thickness and will not collapse. If anything, they're a PITA to get back on the TB's because they are so rigid. If I were to do it again, which I am, I'd go with the Roe smooth tubes. Roe Racing Performance Parts

 

[Vipuronr]

Thanks Tony....will check them out....then, probably after that change to a high flow air filter...not K&N, Chuck mentioned a brand that he says works better on Vipers

Peter
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[ViperTony]

S&B filters most likely. Roe sells them too.

 

[Vipuronr]

Okay, thanks for the info...I'll check them out too. Like the red smooth tubes...though both were red..dah!!

Catch ya later.

Peter
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[CROM]

Get a set of tubes from Roe or PartsRack. 50-80 bucks?? They come with those pretty clamps...which can be bought at any hardware store for 2 bucks a piece by the way. Folks oftentimes sell used ones on this site for next to nothing.

I know Roe sells S&B filters and I know JonB at PartsRack adamantly says use only K&N. They are the same price.

 

[JonB]

Thanks CROM.

We have smoothe bore intake tubes from $40/pair (black rubber, our only choice in 92-93!) to $195/pr 3pc **** chrome center sections, with siicone ends. We also have the ACR-bent (MoPar $240) for $79/pr with stainless clamps.

KN designed the filters for MoPar and for the KN Owner who has had several Vipers. And KN offers an "engine protection warranty" in case a filter fails and ingests something. And since ORECA and MOPAR used KN or Green, we carry and suggest those two options. The last time I looked on that 'other brand' filter website they did not offer any SAE-rated filter for any V-10, truck or Viper. The filters fit Viper by coincidence, not by design.

 

[Vipuronr]

Hi Jon and thanks for the reply!

I'm kind of torn...what I really like, from a looks standpoint, is something polished (stainless) that has red rings/stripes. Have seen it once or twice and like it a lot. That said, have not seen that for sale, so maybe that was a custom thing.

The question I have is, if the tube is combination of metal with rubber/silicone attachment sections, wouldn't that somewhat defeat the purpose...creating added turbulence?

Are all the different types you mention on your site?

Last question: the factory ACR tubes, are they made for larger intake diameters in which case they would not fit a stock RT? Just checked your site and the three styles...so, is there a purpose to the slight factory bend?

Also, thanks for the info/advice on the air filters...will look into it.

Peter
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[Sean Roe]

Hi Jon,
Have you ever installed a set of S&B filters in a Viper, or tested them on the dyno compared to other filters?
Have you ever seen a set next to a K&N?
If not, let me help you..... take a K&N filter and figure out how you would make it better if you could. How.... well, you manufacture it with a better fit in the air filter housing so it doesn't pop off the airbox clips as you're driving down the road and you make it with more filter area by going with deeper pleats and a better process that doesn't bleed so much rubber into the sides of the filter.
In the interest of providing Viper owners with the best product at the same price, you may want to consider calling S&B and getting a set.

Regards,
Sean

 

[luc]

Peter:

The airbox sit lower than the TBs (throttle body) so, to connect the airbox to the TBs, you either need a smooth tube with a bend in it or a straight tube with the end (s) cut at an angle.
The only reason for the aftermarket tubes to be straight with an angled cut is because it's cheaper to manufacture.
Frankly the ACR tubes are the best design and at $70 for a pait it's a hell of a deal.
BTW, you can use/reuse the regular tubes clamps on the ACR tubes
The ACR tubes have exactly the same ID than the regular tubes.

Luc 00GTS

Hi Jon and thanks for the reply!


Last question: the factory ACR tubes, are they made for larger intake diameters in which case they would not fit a stock RT? Just checked your site and the three styles...so, is there a purpose to the slight factory bend?

Also, thanks for the info/advice on the air filters...will look into it.

Peter
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[JonB]

Hi Jon and thanks for the reply! I'm kind of torn...what I really like, from a looks standpoint, is something polished (stainless) that has red rings/stripes. Have seen it once or twice and like it a lot. That said, have not seen that for sale, so maybe that was a custom thing.

The question I have is, if the tube is combination of metal with rubber/silicone attachment sections, wouldn't that somewhat defeat the purpose...creating added turbulence? Are all the different types you mention on your site?

Last question: the factory ACR tubes, are they made for larger intake diameters in which case they would not fit a stock RT? Just checked your site and the three styles...so, is there a purpose to the slight factory bend?

Also, thanks for the info/advice on the air filters...will look into it.

Peter FIREFIGHTERS SAVE LIVES AND PROPERTY

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Yes, on our website you will see the **** red/chrome tubes. 3" dia in the middle, and slip-fit inside tapered red silicone collars, tapered to OE airbox and throttle bodies. $199/pr includes 2 KN Air Filters.

Because the thin metal is a larger diameter, the tiny 'leading edge' in the intake airstream is negligable. And the 3pcs can make the 'climb' to the throttle bodies without being cut-angled. They were first offered by a somewhat infamous 'texas tuner' back in about 1995, and the 'swollen hose' claims a venturi effect as the air expands into the wider hose, then compresses into the TB.

If you dyno with NO filters youll get the least restriction and the most HP......but thats not a good idea. It is just about impossible to prove +/- 5HP on a dyno with a 500HP car! We choose KN because of good dyno results, the MoPar OE useage, the SAE rating, and the KN warranty. We are not saying SOB (some other brand) is bad, just explaining why we sell KN or Green. Other choices, Fram, Autolite, etc may fit, and are avail elsewhere. But check the manufacturers website to see if they offer a VIPER FILTER that can handle the V-10 suction, especially on a modded motor. If the airbox clips fly off, you have other issues of heat and age or error. A drop of ATF or oil spread around the box ensures the best, simple TIGHT FIT, needed to ensure no blow-by with a looser filter.

Fact is, for maximum engine life, the 2 past engine team heads at Team Viper 'prefer' that hi flow filters are NOT used at all! Even if maintained / cleaned / oiled meticulously and regularly, they intrinsically let in more fine debris and create more engine wear, especially when older. YOU GOTTA CLEAN and OIL EM! Rotate TWO sets...

 

[Sean Roe]

Yes, on our website you will see the **** red/chrome tubes. 3" dia in the middle, and slip-fit inside tapered red silicone collars, tapered to OE airbox and throttle bodies. $199/pr includes 2 KN Air Filters.

Because the thin metal is a larger diameter, the tiny 'leading edge' in the intake airstream is negligable. And the 3pcs can make the 'climb' to the throttle bodies without being cut-angled. They were first offered by a somewhat infamous 'texas tuner' back in about 1995, and the 'swollen hose' claims a venturi effect as the air expands into the wider hose, then compresses into the TB.

If you dyno with NO filters youll get the least restriction and the most HP......but thats not a good idea. It is just about impossible to prove +/- 5HP on a dyno with a 500HP car! We choose KN because of good dyno results, the MoPar OE useage, the SAE rating, and the KN warranty. We are not saying SOB (some other brand) is bad, just explaining why we sell KN or Green. Other choices, Fram, Autolite, etc may fit, and are avail elsewhere. But check the manufacturers website to see if they offer a VIPER FILTER that can handle the V-10 suction, especially on a modded motor. If the airbox clips fly off, you have other issues of heat and age or error. A drop of ATF or oil spread around the box ensures the best, simple TIGHT FIT, needed to ensure no blow-by with a looser filter.

Fact is, for maximum engine life, the 2 past engine team heads at Team Viper 'prefer' that hi flow filters are NOT used at all! Even if maintained / cleaned / oiled meticulously and regularly, they intrinsically let in more fine debris and create more engine wear, especially when older. YOU GOTTA CLEAN and OIL EM! Rotate TWO sets...

Hi Jon,
Actually, you can loose HP on the dyno without an air filter in the housing. Believe me, I've tried it on Gen2 and Gen3 and have seen other people do it too. It's not much, but there certainly isn't a gain. It's one of those things that don't necessarily make sense, but experience proves.
Regarding suction on either the filter or tubes, there's flow, but no pressure or vacuum. All the vacuum is behind the throttle body. Between the throttle body and a good air filter, there's no vacuum at all. That's why it really doesn't matter if a smooth tube is one, five , ten or fifteen ply.... they aren't going to collapse at full throttle because there's no vacuum to make them collapse.
Regarding the media the filter uses for filtration, K&N and S&B are identical. The difference s are only in pleat depth and manufacturing. It's really easy to see when you look at two side by side. Deeper pleats equal more surface are for filtration... simple as that.

Here's a sample thread about the airbox clips and K&N's.....
http://forums.viperclub.org/general-viper-discussion/556459-k-n-filter-installed-today.html
I'm sure there's more.

On the upside, a set of S&B or K&N air filters and smooth tubes (no matter the vendor) will gain you between 15 and 20 RWHP every time on a true back to back test. The variance comes in whether or not the car has stock exhaust or a full set of headers and cat-back (that has the highest gain). With either exhaust, you notice the difference in just a wee bit better throttle repsonse when driving around town (so you do get more than just the fullt throttle power gain).

Regards,
Sean

By the way folks, for the record, I like Jon, he's a good guy and I've seen him around the Viper community since I got into it making parts for SVS in 1997. I'm not trying to bash him or say he's "wrong", just sharing the facts about a product I know inside and out.

 

[luc]

not sure I understand this statment, vaccum is defined as a space in which the pressure is significantly lower that atmospheric pressure, all filters, to a certain degree restric airflow and to "flow" air you need a force that can either be negative or positive ( pressure or vaccum).
Wind, for example can be considered airflow and are created by a difference in pressure between a high pressure zone and a low pressure zone and will always flow/move from the high to the low so, you can say that wind is created by air being sucked in.
As a matter of fact, with the TBs open and the engine revving, there is vaccum not only in the smooth tubes but all the way to the airbox opening.
Put a lighted cigarette in front of the airbox opening or just in front of the filters and I bet you that the smoke will move toward/be sucked into the engine.
This force moving the smoke is vaccum.
the only way that you will have no vaccum between the filter and TB would be if you had an opposite and equal force on the outside of the filter, in another word, if the engine, through the TBs "****" (vaccum) 1000cfm, you will need a 1000cfm to be "pushed" (pressure) through the outside of the filter.
Lacking this equal and opposite force, you have vaccum and due to the restrictive nature of a filter, the filter/filter media will be "sucked" in and therefore can collapse if the vaccum exerted by the engine is stronger than the mechanical strengh of the filter


"Regarding suction on either the filter or tubes, there's flow, but no pressure or vacuum. All the vacuum is behind the throttle body. Between the throttle body and a good air filter, there's no vacuum at all. That's why it really doesn't matter if a smooth tube is one, five , ten or fifteen ply.... "

 

[Vipuronr]

Thanks Sean and Jon....hey, not trying to stir up anything, its just I've heard of the three different brands of air filter, K&N (obviously), Green and S&B. Honestly, while I'm taking in everyone's comments, I am going to rely on Chuck's opinion in the end. Chuck's reputation among club members is stellar and, for that reason, I will go with his recommendation in the end.

I respect both of you, however, as I know you have years in the business and great expertise. Clearly, everyone has an opinion based on their own experiences.

So....thanks very much.

Peter
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[ViperTony]

not sure I understand this statment, vaccum is defined as a space in which the pressure is significantly lower that atmospheric pressure, all filters, to a certain degree restric airflow and to "flow" air you need a force that can either be negative or positive ( pressure or vaccum).
Wind, for example can be considered airflow and are created by a difference in pressure between a high pressure zone and a low pressure zone and will always flow/move from the high to the low so, you can say that wind is created by air being sucked in.
As a matter of fact, with the TBs open and the engine revving, there is vaccum not only in the smooth tubes but all the way to the airbox opening.
Put a lighted cigarette in front of the airbox opening or just in front of the filters and I bet you that the smoke will move toward/be sucked into the engine.
This force moving the smoke is vaccum.
the only way that you will have no vaccum between the filter and TB would be if you had an opposite and equal force on the outside of the filter, in another word, if the engine, through the TBs "****" (vaccum) 1000cfm, you will need a 1000cfm to be "pushed" (pressure) through the outside of the filter.
Lacking this equal and opposite force, you have vaccum and due to the restrictive nature of a filter, the filter/filter media will be "sucked" in and therefore can collapse if the vaccum exerted by the engine is stronger than the mechanical strengh of the filter

So, as long as there's no restriction in front of the smooth tubes such as a restrictive filter or perhaps a sock or roadkill getting stuck in the air box then the smooth tube, regardless of thickness should not collapse, correct?

 

[Sean Roe]

Hi Luc,
I'll rephrase since the reply I made was in reference to Jon's comment "But check the manufacturers website to see if they offer a VIPER FILTER that can handle the V-10 suction, especially on a modded motor".
The vacuum is so slight behind a high flow air filter (less than 1 inch) that there are no known smooth tubes or filters that will collapse.
I didn't intend to say there was none, but in reality, it's just super slight. You'll only see about 2 inches of vacuum inside the manifold itself at wide open throttle on a modded motor with the right size throttle bodies (ideally, it's zero).
Regards,
Sean

 

[JonB]

.............................
By the way folks, for the record, I like Jon, he's a good guy and I've seen him around the Viper community since I got into it making parts for SVS in 1997. I'm not trying to bash him or say he's "wrong", just sharing the facts about a product I know inside and out...

Anyone out for flying fur ain't gonna see it between Sean and I...... Im just a decade+ older and maybe more conservative, and we have a couple differing opinons. He's the younger doctor, and Im the older one.....from whom you can get 'second opinons' for the health of your Snake. Throw in the (younger) Tator and Cragin, and that Viper-wippersnapper Jorgenson, and you might get 67 years of Viper experience amongst us, at your disposal. And we ALL choose to pay to sponsor this site and help VCA!

That said: V-10s ****. 8.0+ litres every 2 RPM. 16,000+litres/min @ 4000 rpm. That 'suction' is ALL metered (sucked) thru throttle body(ies) and whats in front of em: hoses, filters, airbox, NACA or not. Back on my earliest Gen 1s, (only 2 tuners by 94) we actually cut Goodyear Green-Stripe BOAT EXHAUST HOSES to make our own smoothe tubes. At WOT, we saw the cheaper thinner walls partially collapse behind the OE filter. (KN had no filter in 92-93) We knew it would be worse under load, on track. So we lobbied for the metal-wall tubes way back then. And for KN filters. Afterwards, Samco thick wall hoses and more.

Im always stuck in learning / training from history I guess.......and sometimes from my younger colleages like Sean, Dan, Chuck, Doug, and Mark! Thanks.

The Relic..........

 

[Sean Roe]

I could see the stock filters creating enough vacuum between them and the throttle bodies to collapse a thin wall smooth tube. No argument there. Those stock ones are too restrictive.

Regarding high flow filters, I don't know of any Viper that's had its engine wear out prematurely due to an inefficient air filter. There aren't any "bad" filters out there. But some are better than others.

 

[Vipuronr]

Now THAT was a very political answer....nicely worded!

Peter
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