You said it was just a matter of when, not if

[rocketman1]

I had smelled coolant a time or two. Never found any leaks. Took the car out for a drive yesterday and brought it back. Found a puddle on the ground and finally found the leak. Guess it got much worse really quick. Coolant is dripping from the driver's head at the back corner. Its a 95 with 29k miles.
Did some post searching and found mention of newer gaskets in a top-end kit. Was just told by a dealer 1000$ for the gasket kit, and it's on national backorder ?!?

Really?

 

[Crompton]

that *****.I have been noticing the same smell but just thinking its in my mind.Guess i know now that i need to look for the wet spot.lol

 

[Stretch]

I did mine a year ago. The MLS head gaskets came from Viper Specialty and the rest of the gaskets came from Chuck Tator. I'd check with both. Good luck.

 

[jdeft1]

Gen 1 headgaskets are an easy swap.... Go for it. Basic tools etc....

 

[1994viper]

I had a leak from the back, but it was just a warped thermostat assembly, so I just had to replace that. I also I had smell coming from a leaky radiator it took me a while to figure that one out. Micro leaks were caused by separating the radiator core from the tanks, I recored it and the smell is gone. No head gaskets yet for me.

 

[99 R/T 10]

On my old 96 RT/10, it was the thermostat gasket that had failed. Gave me a reason to put in a 180 degree stat vs. the stock 192 degree.. Try to confirm where it is leaking from before you tear into the engine.

 

[95Viper]

I posted a long write up on this some time ago if you can search and find it. I did it myself. Just takes time, label everything and take pictures. Really was easy with basic tools and a couple of torque wrenches.

 

[RTTTTed]

Last time I was at partsrack he had a stack of MLS headgaskets 12`high. JonB is located in the Pacific Northwest (you didn`t post your location).

Ted

 

[plumcrazy]

call dan at viper specialty

 

[JonB]

that *****.I have been noticing the same smell but just thinking its in my mind.Guess i know now that i need to look for the wet spot.lol

You might NOT see the wet spot, just smell the mystery acrid aroma.

Most leaks start as weeping, external, along the head-block seam. There may be pecker-tracks down the block, but the weeps evaporate on the hot block and dont puddle. Or, they weep internally and then exhaust.....

If your leak is so bad you have a wet spot, PARK IT!

ps, yes, we do have the improved gaskets, find us in the vendor area, thanks:
http://forums.viperclub.org/vendor-review-partsrack/

 

[Viper Specialty]

call dan at viper specialty

Plenty of head gaskets left in stock. I even have a few sets that will bump your compression slightly, or if you have a bored engine.

We brought them to market for you guys specifically because Mopar has their head firmly planted in their rear-end on the pricing of those gasket sets.

We stock the headgaskets and all other gaskets to do the job at all times, for all generations actually. Give me a shout, and I will make sure you don't get caught with your pants down on your gasket overhaul.

 

[RTTTTed]

Since there's 2 vendors on this gasket thread ...

What about copper head gaskets of headgaskets thick enough to lower compression for FI engines? Any availability?

9-1 compression is a much better compression for Forced Induction engines.

Ted

 

[Viper Specialty]

Since there's 2 vendors on this gasket thread ...

What about copper head gaskets of headgaskets thick enough to lower compression for FI engines? Any availability?

9-1 compression is a much better compression for Forced Induction engines.

Ted

Yes, but NOT recommended on a street engine. Copper gaskets on an aluminum block will cause galvanic corrosion and destroy your block and deck surface over time. Running a non-electrolyte coolant would be a must, and that has advantages and disadvantages on its own. No matter what, you are still taking a big chance in any form.

I can get you our gasket design in many thicknesses, thats not a problem. But you have to be careful, as nothing will line up anymore... this can be a major pain. Changing your pistons/rods out with a drop in combination is a far better, stronger, more reliable and simpler way of doing it. Not to mention, if you do have custom pistons running a tight quench, going to thicker gaskets will ruin that advantage.

 

[rocketman1]

Finally had time to pull the wipers and cowl cover. Leak is ACTUALLY coming from where crossover tube connects to intake on driver side. I have heard differing opinions. It doesn't look like there is enough room to get all this out without pulling the intake. Plan to change to 180 thermo and replace both hoses back there while I have it apart.

 

[99 R/T 10]

You can do it with out pulling the intake, BUT you need small girlie hands and they will still get scraped all to heck. Not a fun job,

 

[Viper Specialty]

Finally had time to pull the wipers and cowl cover. Leak is ACTUALLY coming from where crossover tube connects to intake on driver side. I have heard differing opinions. It doesn't look like there is enough room to get all this out without pulling the intake. Plan to change to 180 thermo and replace both hoses back there while I have it apart.

You would have to be nuts to jump THAT far into the job, and not change the head gaskets as well. Those old gaskets actually cause corrosion damage to the deck and heads while they are installed. OUT WITH THEM!

 

[rocketman1]

I remember reading somewhere there is a way to tell if the gaskets had been changed...but I cant seem to find it again...anyone remember? If I have to pull the intake anyway.....and the car hasnt had gaskets replaced.....I guess I should ...

 

[Viper Specialty]

Very easy. The head gasket sticks out from between the head and block under the exhaust manifold. Snap a good picture of it, and post it here. MLS and Composite do not look even remotely similar.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Those old gaskets actually cause corrosion damage to the deck and heads while they are installed. OUT WITH THEM!

Is there data to support this?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Is there data to support this?

Absolutely. Remove a set of high-mile heads on original gaskets, and take notice of the deep corroded pits where the coolant has seeped through the composite substrate.

I wish I had better pics of this one, you can see the pits remain even after the head was surfaced... that's how deep they run.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

If the pitted area was wet, as you said the coolant seeped through the composite gasket, then you should blame the coolant. The coolant additives are supposed to prevent corrosion and either because of age (old green coolant) or no flow (wet section was dead-ended) the additives weren't doing their job. Or just say the gaskets are mediocre... but not that the gaskets cause corrosion.

These are from another high mileage '94 with the original gaskets that were changed only to replace the lifters. Note how "bad" the unclamped areas look, both internal and external. I'll agree they aren't the best gaskets, but the clamped areas were fine and just judging by the exposed edges isn't accurate either.

 

[dave6666]

So chemistry and mechanical engineering aside, accurate root cause assessment aside, can we continue to say the gaskets **** and to change them?

Dave, chemical and mechanical engineering alter-genius. And trained in root cause assessment

 

[Viper Specialty]

If the pitted area was wet, as you said the coolant seeped through the composite gasket, then you should blame the coolant. The coolant additives are supposed to prevent corrosion and either because of age (old green coolant) or no flow (wet section was dead-ended) the additives weren't doing their job. Or just say the gaskets are mediocre... but not that the gaskets cause corrosion.

These are from another high mileage '94 with the original gaskets that were changed only to replace the lifters. Note how "bad" the unclamped areas look, both internal and external. I'll agree they aren't the best gaskets, but the clamped areas were fine and just judging by the exposed edges isn't accurate either.

Tom,

Why should I blame the coolant, when it was the gasket that failed and allowed the coolant into places it should not have been? You should know better than anyone how little the old green coolants do after the fact for corrosion protection, especially when they are old fills. Also, a seeping gasket should certainly be expected to be a near-zero flow situation. The areas where the pitting occurs are NOT a problem with MLS gaskets. The pits extended outwards in the case of this engine from every coolant passage hole, along the path of the gasket weave. While you could say that there is not a chemical reaction of the gasket material claiming responsibility for the pitting, you can still say that the gasket design, and thus the gasket itself, is the cause of the corrosion. The coolant, regardless of anything else, would not have been able to propagate to many of the affected areas had it been an MLS gasket.

No matter how you say it, the Composite gaskets allow deck corrosion to take place, the MLS gaskets do not. The MLS gaskets are simply better at keeping coolant where it is supposed to be.

You may have lucked out with that '94 above, but as you said yourself, those gaskets had not yet failed completely either. You also posted pictures of the gaskets, not the deck or heads. My money is on there being at least slight pitting on the deck and heads after looking at those gaskets.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Dan, I hope you sell lots of gaskets. Really. I'm just trying to keep the information posted as accurate as I can.

Your statement that the OEM gaskets "cause" corrosion is explicitly and technically incorrect. If you said they "exacerbate" or even "accelerate" corrosion, that would be fine. To be technically accurate and credible, it does matter how you say it.

You argued with me before that long-life DEX-COOL would ruin an aluminum engine, but now you agree (I think?) that green coolants aren't that great. How about we converge on this - green coolants are like OEM head gaskets and long life coolants are like your MLS gaskets?

With my '94 I may have lucked out. Or, because I have earned my living at chemical companies that specialize in automotive fuel, lubricant, and coolant additives, I may have put DEX-COOL in the coolant system when I got it, which protected the cheesy OEM gasket and it actually might have lasted forever. Because of that lifter we'll never know. Meanwhile I'm at 104K miles without having repaired a block or cut the heads. If the heads ever come off again I will take pictures.

 

[RobZilla]

So for all us simpletons round these parts, safe to say that a long life coolant such as Peak or Prestone is what we should all be using in our cars?

And the gaskets don't necessarily need to be changed unless inspected and deemed to be crapped out?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

So for all us simpletons round these parts, safe to say that a long life coolant such as Peak or Prestone is what we should all be using in our cars?
Yes. Peak Global LifeTime looks good to me.

And the gaskets don't necessarily need to be changed unless inspected and deemed to be crapped out?

That's hard to determine, so unless there is evidence of an external leak, water in oil, two adjacent cylinders without compression, foamy coolant, or use a combustion gas tester for the coolant, I wouldn't change gaskets.

I occasionally do preventative maintenance no matter what you guys think, and have experienced many other Viper-specific quirks (thermostat housing gaskets can be changed without removing manifold, but need to remove cowl). Changing head gaskets because they are old is a little over the top for me.

 

[RobZilla]

That's hard to determine, so unless there is evidence of an external leak, water in oil, two adjacent cylinders without compression, foamy coolant, or use a combustion gas tester for the coolant, I wouldn't change gaskets.

I occasionally do preventative maintenance no matter what you guys think, and have experienced many other Viper-specific quirks (thermostat housing gaskets can be changed without removing manifold, but need to remove cowl). Changing head gaskets because they are old is a little over the top for me.

If it's not broke, dont fix it. I like that approach as well. Thanks Tom

Dan, thank you for your expert input as well. A discussion between you two is always an informative read.

 

[AZTVR]

Sounds like semantics that only a bunch of engineering type geeks might care about.

How about we say that the gaskets are the root cause of the head surface being corroded, and go for a nice drive >>>>>

 

[dave6666]

Sounds like semantics that only a bunch of engineering type geeks might care about.

Exactly. Hence my interjection that the root cause is still crappy gaskets.

Some care how we got there, some do not!

 

[Phun70]

If the pitted area was wet, as you said the coolant seeped through the composite gasket, then you should blame the coolant. The coolant additives are supposed to prevent corrosion and either because of age (old green coolant) or no flow (wet section was dead-ended) the additives weren't doing their job. Or just say the gaskets are mediocre... but not that the gaskets cause corrosion.

These are from another high mileage '94 with the original gaskets that were changed only to replace the lifters. Note how "bad" the unclamped areas look, both internal and external. I'll agree they aren't the best gaskets, but the clamped areas were fine and just judging by the exposed edges isn't accurate either.

Sorry, I'd have to disagree that copper gaskets will! cause corrosion. The galvanic response previously mentioned is real and can actually be measured with a DVOM and is caused by dissimilar metals interacting with each other and the coolant acting like electrolyte, essentially you've built a low voltage battery. I've been a tech for 20+ years and have seen it many times. The coolant can't stop it no matter the additive package since the chemicals are broken down rapidly by the electrical flow through it. I even wrote a tech article about this sort of thing a few years ago. If people are interested, I would be willing to re-type it to post here. ASE L1 CDMAT