You said it was just a matter of when, not if

[vipzilla]

call dan at viper specialty

ditto he has the best gen1 gasketts

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

The coolant can't stop it no matter the additive package...

OK, I'm interested, since that statement sounds like there isn't a coolant out there that prevents corrosion.

 

[rocketman1]

Thanks for all the responses. JonB at Partsrack quoted me for the head gaskets and referred me to Chuck Tator for all the other gaskets. After pulling the wipers and cowling, I found the actual leak was coming from the crossover tube. I spoke at length with Chuck about the leak and he gave me some troubleshooting to do. After an attempted retorque I still had the leak. Another phone call to Chuck had the parts on the way, along with an in-depth explaination of how to get the crossover out without pulling the intake. He even took the time to give me his way of bleeding the air from the system.
New gaskets in this weekend without a problem. No leaks.

I can't say enough about Chuck. I only wish he were closer to FL. If anyone needs viper work, Chuck is an unbelievable guy to talk to.

 

[Phun70]

OK, I'm interested, since that statement sounds like there isn't a coolant out there that prevents corrosion.

I'll assume that the short answer will suffice, most if not all coolants will prevent corrosion, but that is due to the additive package in the coolant. Eventually that chemistry is "used up" if you will and will no longer be fully effective at preventing corrosion. The presence of electrolysis will greatly speed up the process of tearing down the coolants corrosion protection chemistry. Like I said, hopefully that will suffice, but if you really want me to, I would re-type me entire article for the good of the board. Mark

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Nope, it sounds like we agree that coolants do prevent corrosion because of the additives they contain and that the additives get used up; just like the additives in engine oil, gear oil, power steering fluid, transmission fluid and all the other fluids we're supposed to change. I will hang my hat on the longevity of my old head gaskets because I did use long-life coolant.

 

[Ricksnake1]

Hey Tom. I have always loved reading you response to the many questions fired off to you. I have a question of my own. Is is necessary to change the Automatic Trans fluid on a 2008 car every 20 - 30 thousand miles?

Thanks
Rick

 

[bluesrt]

Hey Tom. I have always loved reading you response to the many questions fired off to you. I have a question of my own. Is is necessary to change the Automatic Trans fluid on a 2008 car every 20 - 30 thousand miles?

Thanks
Rick

ill answer that---- NO

 

[Ricksnake1]

Thanks for the help ,ill
Rick

 

[jay01m]

I'll assume that the short answer will suffice, most if not all coolants will prevent corrosion, but that is due to the additive package in the coolant. Eventually that chemistry is "used up" if you will and will no longer be fully effective at preventing corrosion. The presence of electrolysis will greatly speed up the process of tearing down the coolants corrosion protection chemistry. Like I said, hopefully that will suffice, but if you really want me to, I would re-type me entire article for the good of the board. Mark

Mark - So essentially, the additives in the coolant more or less act as the "sacrificial anode" for the engine? How does the presence of a copper gasket complicate matters when it comes to protecting the engine from corrosion? Does copper speed up electrolysis?

Dan - What are the disadvantages of going with a non-electrolyte coolant?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Hey Tom. I have always loved reading you response to the many questions fired off to you. I have a question of my own. Is is necessary to change the Automatic Trans fluid on a 2008 car every 20 - 30 thousand miles?

Thanks
Rick

Using an ATF in a manual - the gears will shear the additives that act to thicken the oil, so in time the fluid will become thinner. Heat from the engine, tooth contact, and loads will tend to oxidize the oil so in time it may darken and varnish will build up. There are specific friction control additives that Dodge must like for the synchro engagement and smooth shifting. Wear metals are carried in suspension by dispersants waiting to be removed from the system when you change the oil.

So, um, yes, eventually you should change the ATF.

 

[Jack B]

If the pitted area was wet, as you said the coolant seeped through the composite gasket, then you should blame the coolant. The coolant additives are supposed to prevent corrosion and either because of age (old green coolant) or no flow (wet section was dead-ended) the additives weren't doing their job. Or just say the gaskets are mediocre... but not that the gaskets cause corrosion.

These are from another high mileage '94 with the original gaskets that were changed only to replace the lifters. Note how "bad" the unclamped areas look, both internal and external. I'll agree they aren't the best gaskets, but the clamped areas were fine and just judging by the exposed edges isn't accurate either.

Tom:
You are entirely accurate, the coolant was the direct cause, but, it does not matter, the indirect cause was the failure of the head gasket and that was controllable. We all know they should be replaced. Can you guess if the coolant/oxygen and elevated temperature react differently than the same coolant in a oxygen depleted environment.

 

[Jack B]

Nope, it sounds like we agree that coolants do prevent corrosion because of the additives they contain and that the additives get used up; just like the additives in engine oil, gear oil, power steering fluid, transmission fluid and all the other fluids we're supposed to change. I will hang my hat on the longevity of my old head gaskets because I did use long-life coolant.

What do you consider "long-life" coolant?

 

[boman]

Mine leaked there TWICE. One of the holes in the crossover was out of location laterally. I egg shaped the hole laterally so that the crossover would pull down properly on the sealing surface. Also, use a torque wrench and tighten to 250 in-lbs.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Tom:
You are entirely accurate, the coolant was the direct cause, but, it does not matter, the indirect cause was the failure of the head gasket and that was controllable. We all know they should be replaced. Can you guess if the coolant/oxygen and elevated temperature react differently than the same coolant in a oxygen depleted environment.

Oxygen (air) in the cooling system will greatly shorten the life of the coolant and the hardware. Elevated temperature will accelerate the chemical reaction whether there is O2 or not. There have been several OEM cooling system "field issues" that were blamed on the coolant (e.g. DEX-COOL) which were really caused by underfilling the system and because the radiator did not have a cap (um... like the Viper) the owner could only look at the plastic pressure tank, which was full. Besides the immediate issue of poor cooling, air in the system will cause premature corrosion.

Maybe many of you will look at this debate as a war of words, but we should acknowledge that additives in automotive fluids are vital components. I hold that while the OEM gaskets were average, they could have greatly benefited from coolant maintenance. To a silly extreme to explain my point, if one wants to blame the OEM head gaskets, then install the best improved head gaskets you can buy and use only water and ethylene glycol. Good luck!

Or a really, really silly example - put unadditized non-detergent motor oil in your engine and then blame the bearings or metals parts for failing...

Sorry Jack, I know you are far more technical than these obvious jokes. But as my field is additives for oils, fuels, etc, I have a soapbox to defend.

Long life coolants are generally the low-silicate or no-silicate carboxylic acid types that advertise 5 years/150,000 mile service. The difference from them vs the traditional green coolant is that the green coolant additives plate out on the metal surfaces within hours to provide a protective layer. This also means that 100% of the additive is used up right away and should it flake off, cannot be replenished. It does flake off and therefore the 2-3 year coolant change recommendation. Plus, the "flakes" of silicate material are abrasive and wear the water pump seals. Non- or low-silicate coolants have different additive technologies that stay in the coolant solution until needed, so they are available at a later date. The heavy duty truck versions can go many hundred thousand miles and then repeat this with only a coolant additive top-up.

 

[Jack B]

Oxygen (air) in the cooling system will greatly shorten the life of the coolant and the hardware. Elevated temperature will accelerate the chemical reaction whether there is O2 or not. There have been several OEM cooling system "field issues" that were blamed on the coolant (e.g. DEX-COOL) which were really caused by underfilling the system and because the radiator did not have a cap (um... like the Viper) the owner could only look at the plastic pressure tank, which was full. Besides the immediate issue of poor cooling, air in the system will cause premature corrosion.

Maybe many of you will look at this debate as a war of words, but we should acknowledge that additives in automotive fluids are vital components. I hold that while the OEM gaskets were average, they could have greatly benefited from coolant maintenance. To a silly extreme to explain my point, if one wants to blame the OEM head gaskets, then install the best improved head gaskets you can buy and use only water and ethylene glycol. Good luck!

Or a really, really silly example - put unadditized non-detergent motor oil in your engine and then blame the bearings or metals parts for failing...

Sorry Jack, I know you are far more technical than these obvious jokes. But as my field is additives for oils, fuels, etc, I have a soapbox to defend.

Long life coolants are generally the low-silicate or no-silicate carboxylic acid types that advertise 5 years/150,000 mile service. The difference from them vs the traditional green coolant is that the green coolant additives plate out on the metal surfaces within hours to provide a protective layer. This also means that 100% of the additive is used up right away and should it flake off, cannot be replenished. It does flake off and therefore the 2-3 year coolant change recommendation. Plus, the "flakes" of silicate material are abrasive and wear the water pump seals. Non- or low-silicate coolants have different additive technologies that stay in the coolant solution until needed, so they are available at a later date. The heavy duty truck versions can go many hundred thousand miles and then repeat this with only a coolant additive top-up.

great discussion