ZR1 FORUMS ARE

[black mamba1]

The Zr1 uses run flats! Didnt they learn from the Gen 3's that run flats are a recipe for disaster and has poor traction? I know it is supposed to be a new Michelin run flat compound..but still, run flats require a very stiff side wall and hard compound...which equals poor traction. I think they were beginning to get nervous about all the extra weight this car has.

 

[Vic]

EatonUup,
Uhm, uh, I have to say something here, (because I haven't had an insane argument for at least two days now)

The GTR irepresents quite a bit of engineering, and I give them respect, even though personally, I think its butt ugly. To each his own. But more importantly, its a heavy car, nose heavy at that. Yes, it grips well, with its AWD. But at 3800+ pounds, its also harder to brake, rotate, and power out of turns. No other production car ever in Ring history, with 3800+ pounds, 480 Hp, and AWD turns a time like that. Thats just physics, so you know something's wrong with the Ring time they claimed. Here's at least one reason why they got that great time-

Nissan hand cut the slicks for the N'Ring time. Mizuno or Mizuni, whatever his name is, even clearly admitted that they did so. Thats cheating big time! To qualify for the production car N'Ring time sheet, you have to run the stock street tires. Those hand cut slicks alone would gain you a couple of seconds on a fairly short road course like Willow Springs, with only 9 turns and 1.5 miles. So how many more seconds do you think it would shave over a track that is like 12 miles long, with well over 100 turns? Whats it, like, some 140 turns? Hand cut racing slicks over that many turns accounts for quite a vast improvement in lap time, vs a street-tired car. Nissan are cheats. They went for the buzz effect. That is all. Now, back to our regularly scheduled penis comparisons.

 

[Camfab]

Wow after reading the last couple of pages, I had no idea what the original post was about. +1 GTR = Butt Ugly!!!!!

 

[Vic]

Apart from the Nurburgring in Germany-around which it's the world's fastest production car (only the limited-build Porsche Carrera GT laps faster, says Nissan).

Uh, you might wanna think twice about repeating some of their stuff. Check this out-
Nordschleife lap records - FastestLaps.com
There are 4 cars faster than the PGT listed. (Three of them are bedsprings with motorcycle engines)

 

[lankhoss]

What V10 does Chevrolet make?

They don't, but the original plan was to use a V10....but it would be too big to fit in the engine compartment.

 

[lankhoss]

I can't get a C6ZO6 to play on the street....I've tried to race about 4 of them and NONE would play.


I don't think the ZR1 will be much the same.


I need to get some turbos on this N/A car of mine....:eatpop:

Damn, that *****. I finally found another Z06 one night, and he was a total ******. He'd nail the gas next to my friend and I, then let off as soon as we got in it....then he'd slow way down whenever my friend down-shifted and tried to run against him. Finally, he turned off on an exit and flashed his lights at me....I flipped him off heh

Too bad you aren't further north, I would have gladly played around back when I was stock. I don't think it's too fair anymore now, since I have the basic bolt ons though.

 

[Nine Ball]

Thanks for the assist ... but if noticed, I listed HP/L calculations for all of the engines, in a naturally-aspirated condition. Based upon GM's many variations of that V8, it's safe to estimate that the 6.2L will generate no more than 450HP -- before adding the blower. So the blower needs to NET an additional +170HP (+38%) to get to the estimated total HP of 620. I think too many folks are talking as if that blower was slapped on the current 7.0L Z06 engine. Now that WOULD have been a monster (as many Vette fans were hoping). But this ZR1 set up does not start with the Z06 engine.

Let me give you a brief intro to these GM LS-series V8 engines (I co-founded LS1TECH - Powered by vBulletin). There are 6.0L LS engines with ported factory heads and cam upgrades pushing over 500 rwhp. That is approx 570 crank hp. Your 450 hp estimate would be considered a baseline. The LS3/LS9 have much better cylinder heads than the LS2 did, and it also grew to 6.2L. These engines are very easy to modify, there is a huge aftermarket for them. 500+ rwhp heads/cam LS3s are becoming the norm right now.

If you read my reply earlier, your estimated blower increase of +38% is not going to be a problem. My stock LS2 (6.0L) baselined at 340 rwhp. With a simple roots blower and exhaust I was at 550 rwhp (625 crank HP). That was only with 5.5 psi boost. That is a +62% gain with a blower, on an engine that wasn't even designed for a blower. That blower was also much smaller than the ZR1 blower, and less efficient (3-lobe vs 4 lobe). So you are thinking a larger engine, with forged internals, lower compression ration, larger and more efficient blower, much better heads, etc... will have trouble making 620hp? My combo was inferior in every single way and it still made 625hp with baby boost levels.

These ZR1s will push over 600 at the wheels (680hp) with little effort. Wait and see...

 

[Camfab]

Just a point regarding the original posting. I was reading a post on the Corvetteforum regarding the new ACR. Nearly all the posts were articulate and actually laid out good arguments. No one was bashing the ACR. Seems lately, most posts here are pure passion with no real basis. Thanks for getting back on track!

 

[lankhoss]

Just a point regarding the original posting. I was reading a post on the Corvetteforum regarding the new ACR. Nearly all the posts were articulate and actually laid out good arguments. No one was bashing the ACR. Seems lately, most posts here are pure passion with no real basis. Thanks for getting back on track!

Agreed, this is a very good thread.

 

[lankhoss]

I'm pumped, especially reading both of these threads.

We should try to schedule a match in 2009 for people from the VCA with ACR's and people on CF with ZR1s to race at a certain track. I'd travel for that!

 

[Vipermann]

Your 450 hp estimate would be considered a baseline. The LS3/LS9 have much better cylinder heads than the LS2 did, and it also grew to 6.2L. These engines are very easy to modify, there is a huge aftermarket for them. 500+ rwhp heads/cam LS3s are becoming the norm right now.

These ZR1s will push over 600 at the wheels (680hp) with little effort. Wait and see...

Nonsense. I've owned (and modified) a Vette. GM has never shown that kind of ability to further increase the efficiency of these LS V8s. The C5 Z06 V8, with it's 'special' heads, was the most efficient with 405HP from 5.6L (72.3HP/L). The '08 LS3 drops DOWN at only 430HP from a 6.0L (71.7HP/L ... it requires an open exhaust option to up the total to 438HP). The C6 Z06 gets its power by bringing displacement up to 7.0L. I was giving the new, smaller, 6.2L ZR1 engine the benefit of the doubt when I estimated 72.5HP/L naturally aspirated, which GM has yet to ever achieve in any of these V8s. 450HP for the 6.2L ZR1 engine is a very generous assumption from which to start before considering the gains from a blower.

If the ZR1 generates more power (than 620HP) it won't be because of some strength of the engine -- it will be all blower.

And who cares about modifying? or how easy it is to modify with cams etc.? If we're gonna compared modified SRT Viper engines to Vette engines that's a WHOLE different (and long) story ... in favor of the Viper. And with the high cost and expected low volumes of the ZR1, there won't be many mods to fit that unique engine for a long time, if ever. The bottom line truth? The '08 Viper, with 8.4L and starting from 600HP n/a, has the potential for FAR bigger HP gains than this new 6.2L ZR1.

 

[Vipermann]

Ricers created drifting because they just couldn't handle flat out running....Track racing is right next to that I can't out run you but I bet I can out track you...*** comp out.....

Huh?

Drifting started in Japan, years before anybody ever did it here in the US.

Competition types:

1/4 mile: Mostly car/motor, with quick reaction time, but really no balls required, unless you're going 200mph.

Drifting: Much harder than it looks, mostly driver skill, but no balls required unless you're worried about wrecking your car.

Track: Car means a lot, so does driver skill, and takes more balls than any of the other forms of competition (as you downshift at the end of the back straight a Sebring and look at that concrete wall). Also, the most fans -- it actually gets TV coverage and real paid sponsors ... much more so than 1/4 mi drag racing.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Ricers created drifting because they just couldn't handle flat out running....Track racing is right next to that I can't out run you but I bet I can out track you...*** comp out....Yeah you are right power sales....you don't see thousands of people in the stands watching your Viper run around a track but you see thousands of people at these shootouts come to rocking NC you will see it's just more exciting and by the way have you ever tried to lunch a 10 second car it takes quite of bit of skill to do so and yes I have tracked before on my 01 Stage 3 Roush...No you wouldn't want to drift of course in tracking it would slow you down....If you catch the article in the back of the motortrend which was like two months ago talking about the GTR which completely blew away the track expectations....You might want to read that article its pretty informative...Of course we would need a head to head comparison that the beafed up Altima you might want to call it is going to be a beast once it hits the track in the US...

Such a narrowminded, extremely biased, factless post....Your biased take on drifting and its history and your take on circuit tracking has already been debunked by Vipermann's post so I wont add to it....As for the GTR MT article so what???Anything will stand out when judged by itself...Wait for the head to head...Ring times mean squat over here...Ask Porsche.

 

[Nine Ball]

Nonsense. I've owned (and modified) a Vette. GM has never shown that kind of ability to further increase the efficiency of these LS V8s. The C5 Z06 V8, with it's 'special' heads, was the most efficient with 405HP from 5.6L (72.3HP/L). The '08 LS3 drops DOWN at only 430HP from a 6.0L (71.7HP/L ... it requires an open exhaust option to up the total to 438HP). The C6 Z06 gets its power by bringing displacement up to 7.0L. I was giving the new, smaller, 6.2L ZR1 engine the benefit of the doubt when I estimated 72.5HP/L naturally aspirated, which GM has yet to ever achieve in any of these V8s. 450HP for the 6.2L ZR1 engine is a very generous assumption from which to start before considering the gains from a blower.

Are you serious? I thought only ricers argued "HP per Liter" stuff. I deal with several professional racing engine builders on a daily basis, and they would laugh at you if you started spewing HP per Liter arguments. HP/Liter is a horrible way to compare things, it doesn't tell you anything about the shape of the torque or hp curves. Two engines can have the same peak HP, but that doesn't tell you which one performs better or is more efficient. It is all about the area under the HP curve, the broader, the better. Peak HP means nothing in comparing different engines. It would be more accurate to calculate the highest average HP across the racing RPM powerband...per liter. Don't get ******* in the peak HP ratings game.

If the ZR1 generates more power (than 620HP) it won't be because of some strength of the engine -- it will be all blower.

Brilliance. Who said otherwise? The same can be said of the Ford GT or (insert name brand here) twin-turbo cars.

And who cares about modifying? or how easy it is to modify with cams etc.? If we're gonna compared modified SRT Viper engines to Vette engines that's a WHOLE different (and long) story ... in favor of the Viper.

Hmmmmm.... Vipers are performance cars, we are enthusiasts. I guess modifying them isn't a valid subject? I care about modifying, and I'll bet the majority here also do too. Are you sure about the Viper engines being better to modify than the GM LS engine platform? Really sure? I don't think you have done research on both platforms. The aftermarket for GM LS engines is HUGE and you can build just about anything with them. Yes, the Viper engine is a great platform to start with, but I haven't seen any benefits of the 2 extra cylinders from my experience.

And with the high cost and expected low volumes of the ZR1, there won't be many mods to fit that unique engine for a long time, if ever. The bottom line truth? The '08 Viper, with 8.4L and starting from 600HP n/a, has the potential for FAR bigger HP gains than this new 6.2L ZR1.

Do some more research before assuming. The LS9 (ZR1 engine) is based on the LS3. The LS3 shares the same general architecture as all the other LS based engines, it just has a larger bore and better flowing heads. Just about all of the parts are interchangeable. Even the '07+ Cadillac Escalade/Denali have a similar engine (L92) to the LS3/LS9. There are TONS of parts for the LS9, and it hasn't even come out yet. You name a component, and there are already dozens of aftermarket parts to fit it. People are already building LS3 strokers, modifying heads, etc... same thing as the LS9.

Come on guys, I enjoy my Viper too, but I hate seeing people post up misinformed info like it is fact. Do some research first. It is okay to enjoy multiple brands of cars and appreciate them for what they are.

 

[Camfab]

Are you serious? I thought only ricers argued "HP per Liter" stuff. I deal with several professional racing engine builders on a daily basis, and they would laugh at you if you started spewing HP per Liter arguments. HP/Liter is a horrible way to compare things, it doesn't tell you anything about the shape of the torque or hp curves. Two engines can have the same peak HP, but that doesn't tell you which one performs better or is more efficient. It is all about the area under the HP curve, the broader, the better. Peak HP means nothing in comparing different engines. It would be more accurate to calculate the highest average HP across the racing RPM powerband...per liter. Don't get ******* in the peak HP ratings game.



Brilliance. Who said otherwise? The same can be said of the Ford GT or (insert name brand here) twin-turbo cars.



Hmmmmm.... Vipers are performance cars, we are enthusiasts. I guess modifying them isn't a valid subject? I care about modifying, and I'll bet the majority here also do too. Are you sure about the Viper engines being better to modify than the GM LS engine platform? Really sure? I don't think you have done research on both platforms. The aftermarket for GM LS engines is HUGE and you can build just about anything with them. Yes, the Viper engine is a great platform to start with, but I haven't seen any benefits of the 2 extra cylinders from my experience.



Do some more research before assuming. The LS9 (ZR1 engine) is based on the LS3. The LS3 shares the same general architecture as all the other LS based engines, it just has a larger bore and better flowing heads. Just about all of the parts are interchangeable. Even the '07+ Cadillac Escalade/Denali have a similar engine (L92) to the LS3/LS9. There are TONS of parts for the LS9, and it hasn't even come out yet. You name a component, and there are already dozens of aftermarket parts to fit it. People are already building LS3 strokers, modifying heads, etc... same thing as the LS9.

Come on guys, I enjoy my Viper too, but I hate seeing people post up misinformed info like it is fact. Do some research first. It is okay to enjoy multiple brands of cars and appreciate them for what they are.

I've got to agree here, and let's not forget about GM's LSX series. I would say complete factory commitment to **********. I remember when Bowtie heads and Pink rods were a big deal. Except for the Neon program, Dodge is way far behind in the release of late model performance parts.

 

[Vipermann]

Hmmmmm.... Vipers are performance cars, we are enthusiasts. I guess modifying them isn't a valid subject? I care about modifying, and I'll bet the majority here also do too. Are you sure about the Viper engines being better to modify than the GM LS engine platform? Really sure? I don't think you have done research on both platforms. The aftermarket for GM LS engines is HUGE and you can build just about anything with them. Yes, the Viper engine is a great platform to start with, but I haven't seen any benefits of the 2 extra cylinders from my experience.

Do some more research before assuming. The LS9 (ZR1 engine) is based on the LS3. The LS3 shares the same general architecture as all the other LS based engines, it just has a larger bore and better flowing heads. Just about all of the parts are interchangeable. Even the '07+ Cadillac Escalade/Denali have a similar engine (L92) to the LS3/LS9. There are TONS of parts for the LS9, and it hasn't even come out yet. You name a component, and there are already dozens of aftermarket parts to fit it. People are already building LS3 strokers, modifying heads, etc... same thing as the LS9.

Come on guys, I enjoy my Viper too, but I hate seeing people post up misinformed info like it is fact. Do some research first. It is okay to enjoy multiple brands of cars and appreciate them for what they are.

First of all, quit putting words in my mouth -- if you can't correctly argue aginst my points don't change the subject (several times) in order to make yours.

HP/L does make sense. And we all know the difference between peak HP and an engine's power curve ... do you really think that makes you sound smart just because you can point out such basic stuff?

Yes, there are a million aftermarket parts for GM's LS engines -- I've personally bought many of them. But as a great auto leader once said, there's no substitute for cubic inches. Quit trying to make GMs 6.0L, 6.2L sound like brilliant magic -- the point is, that for all those engines may represent, the Viper's 8.4L represents MORE potential power. Period.

And the biggest point -- where your story squirms to change the subject -- is that you started talking about how potent the ZR1 would be -- right off the dealer showroom floor. Then, through a series of posts, you've morphed your point to be that it can be modified to be something even better. Are you kidding? Duh. Any engine can be modified to be better -- but that's not where your story started.

Talk about doing more research? Better idea: Don't hang around those GM websites quite so much, and don't drink the kool-aid. You've talked to engine builders? Haven't we all? And don't put yourself up high just because you've been involved with a Chevy/GM website. That just shows your bias. FYI, I've been involved with performance websites too (BMW, Audi, Porsche, Ferrari). Fact is, that don't mean squat.

 

[Nine Ball]

You started throwing out specs and figures, I countered with my own specs and figures.

HP/L does make sense. And we all know the difference between peak HP and an engine's power curve ... do you really think that makes you sound smart just because you can point out such basic stuff?

I think it only made you look less smart since you were talking about HP/Liter and completely disregarding that the highest average HP across the powerband was the more important thing to consider. Basic stuff yes, but you failed to mention it. Your HP/Liter argument is beginner-level at best, yet you call my statement "basic"?

Yes, there are a million aftermarket parts for GM's LS engines -- I've personally bought many of them. But as a great auto leader once said, there's no substitute for cubic inches. Quit trying to make GMs 6.0L, 6.2L sound like brilliant magic -- the point is, that for all those engines may represent, the Viper's 8.4L represents MORE potential power. Period.

No proof to back up your claims. I'm an engineer myself, I like to see actual stats and proof of this "MORE potential" claim. You do realize that just because an engine has more displacement, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is stronger, right? What is the "potential" that you are referring to? Max HP potential? Max HP/Liter potential? Lets see some data please. Find good examples of both platforms and lets compare notes. There are too many variables to simply base potential on cubes alone.

And the biggest point -- where your story squirms to change the subject -- is that you started talking about how potent the ZR1 would be -- right off the dealer showroom floor. Then, through a series of posts, you've morphed your point to be that it can be modified to be something even better. Are you kidding? Duh. Any engine can be modified to be better -- but that's not where your story started.

Hello Mr. Hypocrite, now you are putting words in my mouth. I only advised that the ZR1 will be potent from the showroom, and easily modified to make more power. We started talking about modifying engines after the "potential" nonsense began. You claimed the Viper has more potential based on engine size, I disagree.

Now please, give me some actual data "Vipermann", with your infinite Viper guru wisdom. I don't claim to be the Viper expert, but when it comes to the LSX engine platform, I know what I'm talking about. Prove me wrong, I'd like to learn more.

 

[HI-NOS-Viper]

Its not a us vs them, its a performance car vs a performance car. If you take it as the same way, thats you. Just remember the differences between the two, Chevy went blower. Blower equals heat soak as mentioned. How many laps will that heat soaked Vette be able to run on the track? I can bet money the ACR will be able to run more laps than the ZR1, that after all what the ACR is about, road track, not 1/4 times. If that was their goal they would not of gone as much as they did in the aerodynamics package as they did. Do you think that they stopped at 600hp because that was all they could get out of the V10 engine? Na. They dont need more than the already shown under rated 600hp for the car to be able to out run the vette surely on a road course. Time will tell but honestly my money is on the ACR on the road course. 1/4, well now thats a different story. Either way both are a prime example of what American sports cars are all about and I love it.

 

[ccbatson]

"Road course"...for most owners, like myself, this is a rarity. Regular day to day street driving is where we enjoy our vehicles most. Seat of the pants performance rules on this playground. Honestly, I would love a ZR1, and am contemplating a change from my 03 srt10 this summer. The decision process is leaning heavily in favor of a 08 viper over a ZR1 or ZO6 for a number of reasons. I guess I will have to do without the ability to look down, through a window in the hood, at an aluminum intercooler with a plastic engine cover held in 40% of the view through that much publicized window....A Plastic Engine Cover?? Come on GM, get a clue, will you?

 

[ViperLB]

The ACR is a 99% track car, that can legally be driven on the road in good conditions.
The ZR1 is a 99% street car, that can perform at the track if needed.

If the ZR1 was purposely built to be a track star, GM would have stripped out the interior and added an airplane wing to the back.

 

[ccbatson]

An airplane wing? Only if GM intended it to be a aerial star. Agreed regarding the ACR...but that is not the bulk of the audience here.

 

[Vipermann]

You started throwing out specs and figures, I countered with my own specs and figures.

I think it only made you look less smart since you were talking about HP/Liter and completely disregarding that the highest average HP across the powerband was the more important thing to consider. Basic stuff yes, but you failed to mention it. Your HP/Liter argument is beginner-level at best, yet you call my statement "basic"?

No proof to back up your claims. I'm an engineer myself, I like to see actual stats and proof of this "MORE potential" claim. You do realize that just because an engine has more displacement, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is stronger, right? What is the "potential" that you are referring to? Max HP potential? Max HP/Liter potential? Lets see some data please. Find good examples of both platforms and lets compare notes. There are too many variables to simply base potential on cubes alone.

Hello Mr. Hypocrite, now you are putting words in my mouth. I only advised that the ZR1 will be potent from the showroom, and easily modified to make more power. We started talking about modifying engines after the "potential" nonsense began. You claimed the Viper has more potential based on engine size, I disagree.

Now please, give me some actual data "Vipermann", with your infinite Viper guru wisdom. I don't claim to be the Viper expert, but when it comes to the LSX engine platform, I know what I'm talking about. Prove me wrong, I'd like to learn more.

Ahhem. Prove? You haven't proven me wrong on any point. And you haven't proven any of your points.

You say WE started talking about modifying engines. NO, You did; As you tried to change the subject -- my comments (before you chimed in), spoke of the ZR1 and the ACR in stock form. So you responded: Let me give you a brief intro to these GM LS-series V8 engines (I co-founded LS1TECH - Powered by vBulletin). There are 6.0L LS engines with ported factory heads and cam upgrades pushing over 500 rwhp. That is approx 570 crank hp. Your 450 hp estimate would be considered a baseline. The LS3/LS9 have much better cylinder heads than the LS2 did, and it also grew to 6.2L. These engines are very easy to modify, there is a huge aftermarket for them. 500+ rwhp heads/cam LS3s are becoming the norm right now.

So you tried to twist a discussion about these two new cars into a discussion about what people have done previously modifying other LS engines etc. Was I talking about what tuners have done with the SRT-10? Where? You brought that clap up out of left field. But if that had been the topic there would have been all kinds of discussion as to mods done on the 8.3L Viper, and potential mods coming for the new 8.4L.

Then I point out a basic metric for comparing engine efficiency, and you chime in that my point is invalid because you're going to educate all of us on average HP. So that is supposed to make me less smart? Well, you failed to talk about torque. Gotcha. So does that now make you an idiot? Point is, you keep changing the discussion.

Now you ask for proof. Of what? Your rambling doesn't even make sense. Are you trying to say that the displacement difference of 6.0L (or 6.2L) compared to 8.4L is so insignificant that any power output difference can be easily overcome with mods? The Viper's 8.4L is the stronger base engine -- obviously. Are you challenging that? And dyno pulls have already confirmed that it appears to be underrated by Dodge at 600HP. Head mods for the 8.4L are already in the works at more than one tuner. Blower/Turbo mods will be coming along with work on the ECU. I'll 'guess' that 900+ (or 1000+) HP Vipers (with loads of torque) will be poping up like weeds everywhere within 24 months. ... But what was your point again about the Vette/LS9? It's still unclear. And when it comes to the LS9, where's your proof???

If your so into mods, I'm surprised you ignored my point that the C6 Z06 will go down in history as the better value. Why not start with a much less expensive 505HP 7.0L Z06 engine and then add heads, cam and a blower, etc., if adding mods is your criteria and plans for a car? Why start a mod-build-up with the over-priced 6.2L ZR1? But again, not sure what your point ever was.

 

[lankhoss]

Nonsense. I've owned (and modified) a Vette. GM has never shown that kind of ability to further increase the efficiency of these LS V8s. The C5 Z06 V8, with it's 'special' heads, was the most efficient with 405HP from 5.6L (72.3HP/L). The '08 LS3 drops DOWN at only 430HP from a 6.0L (71.7HP/L ... it requires an open exhaust option to up the total to 438HP). The C6 Z06 gets its power by bringing displacement up to 7.0L. I was giving the new, smaller, 6.2L ZR1 engine the benefit of the doubt when I estimated 72.5HP/L naturally aspirated, which GM has yet to ever achieve in any of these V8s. 450HP for the 6.2L ZR1 engine is a very generous assumption from which to start before considering the gains from a blower.

If the ZR1 generates more power (than 620HP) it won't be because of some strength of the engine -- it will be all blower.

And who cares about modifying? or how easy it is to modify with cams etc.? If we're gonna compared modified SRT Viper engines to Vette engines that's a WHOLE different (and long) story ... in favor of the Viper. And with the high cost and expected low volumes of the ZR1, there won't be many mods to fit that unique engine for a long time, if ever. The bottom line truth? The '08 Viper, with 8.4L and starting from 600HP n/a, has the potential for FAR bigger HP gains than this new 6.2L ZR1.

First off, the LS2 is more efficient than the LS6. While your hp/L argument DOES show and advantage for the LS6, the LS2 responds to mods better than the LS6 does. A heads and cam package on an LS6 generally will get you between 430 - 460rwhp....and we'll say 445 on average. The most I have seen out of an LS6 was 505rwhp, and that was with an extremely aggressive cam, an electric water pump, and according to the guy "everything you can put on it." A CAM ONLY LS2 will make about 430 - 440rwhp. I just met up with a guy who has a small cam and head work on the stock heads, who made 483/445 rwhp/rwtq with an LS2. I know a more aggressive cam will easily make over 500rwhp on an LS2, without having to remove accessories from the drive belt.

So 445/5.6 = 79.46 hp/L (this engine is actually considered a 5.7L, even though it is only 346ci....but I'll use 5.6)

480/6 = 80 hp/L....and these cars also make more torque, and a MUCH broader powerband than the LS6.

Now, the LS7's are making about 520 - 565rwhp out of a cam only. The highest number I've seen advertised was over 600rwhp with a very aggressive cam and electric water pump. MTI Racing in Marietta now has a heads and cam package, and they said they have yet to get less than 580rwhp out of them with a very mild streetable cam. Their dyno numbers are always very conservative.

So let's say 575/7 = 82.14 hp/L, and an even better powerband than the LS2.

The LS3 is making a lot more power, and has an even wider powerband than the LS2 (actually, very close to the LS7). I don't think you can measure an engine's "potential" simply by dividing its advertised bhp by the litres of the engine.

 

[xlr8ion]

All this talk about HEAT SOAK with the Zr1 is foolish.If you do not think GM tested this car on track for hours at a time you are misinformed.Even though their race cars are NA not supercharged they have put alot of race experience into this car.Heatsoak will not be a factor.

 

[lankhoss]

A supercharged car is going to get heatsoak, no getting around it. It may do better than others at the track, but it WILL be a factor.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't supercharged cars generally pull timing once the IATs become too high?

 

[Vipermann]

The LS3 is making a lot more power, and has an even wider powerband than the LS2 (actually, very close to the LS7). I don't think you can measure an engine's "potential" simply by dividing its advertised bhp by the litres of the engine.

My posts were never originally about the after-market 'potential' of the LS engines. NineBall turned this into that discussion, as you can read above. My first post (and point) was about these engines, in their various forms, as they have been put on the road by GM. Simply put, contrary to the hype, the new ZR1 6.2L LS9, before GM adds the blower, is not really any great leap forward in it's stock form (thus, you're paying $100K for a step down from the 7.0L Z06, and your mostly gaining a blower, ceramic brakes, and some fancy side scoops with a see-through hood). I used the HP/L to estimate the 450 non-aspirated 'stock' HP of the 6.2L ZR1, before GM adds their 'stock' blower, based upon GM's track record with the LS engines. I never made ANY comment about any engine's after-market (mod) potential based upon it's stock HP/L. Go back and read.

You cited all HP/L figures for after each of the engines had been dyno'd with mods. I cited HP/L figures for the engines -- as they come from GM. Again, my post was never about after-market potential, so I'll disregard.

And just to illustrate my point based upon all this talk of mod 'potential', if you would disagree, that would say that for engine performance, you would rather pay $100K for the S/C 6.2L ZR1, than pay $75K for a 7.0L Z06 with $25K left for mods??? (thus, so why all the hype about the ZR1?) If someone disagrees, fine, but I think everyone here gets the idea.

 

[chimazo]

The main reason they went with the 6.2L rather than the 7L was for durability purposes. The 6.2L has thicker cylinder walls. It also uses the LS7's heads and injectors, and I think the exhaust manifolds, too.

Let's not forget that an engine is basically an airpump, and the LSx engines have significantly better flowing heads than the Viper. Stock LS7 heads will outflow even the Strikers, let alone stock Viper heads.

 

[lankhoss]

My posts were never originally about the after-market 'potential' of the LS engines. NineBall turned this into that discussion, as you can read above. My first post (and point) was about these engines, in their various forms, as they have been put on the road by GM. Simply put, contrary to the hype, the new ZR1 6.2L LS9, before GM adds the blower, is not really any great leap forward in it's stock form (thus, you're paying $100K for a step down from the 7.0L Z06, and your mostly gaining a blower, ceramic brakes, and some fancy side scoops with a see-through hood). I used the HP/L to estimate the 450 non-aspirated 'stock' HP of the 6.2L ZR1, before GM adds their 'stock' blower, based upon GM's track record with the LS engines. I never made ANY comment about any engine's after-market (mod) potential based upon it's stock HP/L. Go back and read.

You cited all HP/L figures for after each of the engines had been dyno'd with mods. I cited HP/L figures for the engines -- as they come from GM. Again, my post was never about after-market potential, so I'll disregard.

And just to illustrate my point based upon all this talk of mod 'potential', if you would disagree, that would say that for engine performance, you would rather pay $100K for the S/C 6.2L ZR1, than pay $75K for a 7.0L Z06 with $25K left for mods??? (thus, so why all the hype about the ZR1?) If someone disagrees, fine, but I think everyone here gets the idea.

You mentioned the EFFICIENCY of the engines, and I was trying to illustrate that the later model engines are more efficient than the earlier ones. And I think the numbers for modded LS engines is very appropriate in this debate, since we are speculating on what power the LS3 will make with a blower on it. From GM's track record, the newer engines make more power with power adders....so it's safe to assume that the blown LS3 will make substantially higher power than a blown LS6.

As far as paying 100k for a ZR1....it's most certainly worth the money. The money it would cost for the brake upgrade, rebuild of the LS7 for a forged bottom end, blower, and (painted) carbon fiber body panels would probably exceed $25k and not have a warranty with them.

 

[Vipermann]

You mentioned the EFFICIENCY of the engines ...

As far as paying 100k for a ZR1....it's most certainly worth the money. The money it would cost for the brake upgrade, rebuild of the LS7 for a forged bottom end, blower, and (painted) carbon fiber body panels would probably exceed $25k and not have a warranty with them.

"mentioned efficiency ..." yes, in the completed, stock form of GMs engines -- including the efficiency, or lack of, in the heads, cam, etc. that GM supplies within each engine.
... nothing to do with power gained from mods.

As for the ZR1, you can't talk about the car's amazing performance for the money, but then justify the cost by talking about things that don't substantially add to the performance over what was already available. Yes, it would cost money to build-up a Z06 LS7, but then you would have a built up 7.0L (427ci) engine instead of the built up 6.2L LS9. We've all read how GM says they went to the smaller 6.2L to keep the hood lines low with the blower, and other reasons too. But I, not unlike others, even some of the Vette faithful, will always believe that GM could have delivered even more performance for the money if they had built up the 7.0L (from the Z06) instead of a smaller 6.2L. Instead of buying into the ZR1 hype, and praising this move, GM should be called out on it. Dodge would have never done that with the Viper -- the ACR is all about business -- no see-through hoods either. And GM hyped this 'blue devil' for years???

 

[lankhoss]

Maybe my post was a little misleading. I actually like the Z06 better than the ZR1...and I think the Z06 is a better value than the ZR1. I DON'T think the ZR1 is over-priced, if you look at it from a "how much would it cost to upgrade the Z06" point of view.

Personally, I'd rather have an ACR than a ZR1. But I do think the ZR1 is gonna make a ton of horsepower......a lot more than the ACR. And on top of that (and I know this is going off topic), it will pick up a lot more horsepower from basic mods than the ACR will.

Forgot to add in. I see what you are saying about the "efficiency of the stock engine without mods," but still disagree with your measure of "efficiency." Maybe it's just simply wording. But I think when we are speculating on how much horsepower the LS9 is going to make, the way LS engines respond to mods is a huge factor....and in my opinion, the LS3 is going to respond better to forced induction than the other LS motors.