Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

[FUSCUCLA1]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Am I wrong or did Russ say that he conducted the dyno runs with the hood closed to simulate normal driving conditions. THEN he had an additional pull with the hood open to see if there would be any difference. He didnt do all the pulls with the hood propped open.

 

[mrviper99]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

I read that he was testing air boxes of differant vendors. In his first post he said he propped open the hood and had 90mph fan creating a driving simulation. In a later post he did say he closed the hood on one of the test of the air boxes. Not knowing how many runs he did and how many times he closed the hood or propped it open,or how many hot and cool runs, Russ is the only one that knows that, but I stick with what I saw and experienced at the dyno with GT SNAKE. Jeff

 

[FE 065]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Russ never made clear what "just about every type of cold air setup a Viper can hold" means.. Did you have a bunch of aftermarket airboxes on hand? You did try some lengthy tubes, up to 30" long I guess from what you wrote originally, but 10"-30" tubes wouldn't bolt onto any airbox that made as a replacement for the OEM box would they? All this conjecture is interesting to a point. Racing Vipers and C5R Vettes breathe through very small restrictor plates and make alot of horsepower... One reason changes to airboxes etc haven't shown much difference 'yet' is maybe the engine is getting all the air topside that 'it can use' through the factory plumbing. There's only 244ci on each side you know. Your average 60s inline 6 cylinder-minus one cylinder... Bigger throttle bodies don't usually improve a near stock Viper engine either, until you change the cam, port the heads, etc. 11 years of a lot of people tinkering and tweaking on Vipers haven't really shown any external induction tricks (except for filters and tubes) that 'fix' something that was already there in the first place to pick up a big gain in HP. The Vipair concept is sound, sure. It seems to be the way factory teams are going with 600hp+ engines, and cars that are going like 150mph routinely. All that's left is to prove that a street engine needs it. I blocked OFF the non-NACA duct fed sides of my airbox, and all the way around of my airbox with foam etc to only allow NACA duct cool air into the airbox. Dyno tests later this month with the hood closed comparing a stock airbox, and the modified airbox will tell me if I've blocked off harmful radiator-warmed air and made some additional HP, OR made a mistake. I'll be testing a lot of things during that dyno session: )

 

[mrviper99]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

ViperGTS2002FE; Are you going to the dyno day that the MCVO is setting up for 9-13-03 at Advanced Dyno in Sterling Hts. Jeff

 

[joe117]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Russ M,
It look's like you are the only one with any data. You seem to have covered all the bases and accounted for all the variables.
Everyone else is just talking.
I'd like to see you write up a report and get it in the tech notes section of the site.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Jeff, where did you hear about a MCVO dyno day? I am in the "north suburb" MCVO section, where MCVO news arrives via pack horse.

 

[FE 065]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Jeff, I'm going to go to Wixom to test on the Dynojet dyno there. I have too many things to test,and I will probably need 2 hours of dyno time to wade through it all. I hadn't heard about the club dyno day plan either.

 

[GTSnake]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Hey Guys, you know what? After all this talk about "believers" and "non-believers" I just have to say that if you don't want to accept the facts and data then no one is forcing you to buy anything. But the ones that "believe" the test results and use a Vipair or some other air flow device will be running around with 10 more horses than you

 

[DEVILDOG]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

I'm going with GTSNAKE's dyno run and the fact that GenIs, GenIIIs and race proven GTSRs get their cool air from the front fascia, ergo, I'm getting a VIPAIR. In addition many are saying that the NACA duct due to air pressure does not bring much air into the airbox, therefor, the engine is sucking in a lot of underhood heated air through the two sides of the airbox that flank the NACA duct. The VIPAIR channels outside fascia air into the sides and actually across the entire bottom of the airbox instead of underhood heated air. I'll bet the benefits of the VIPAIR are realized at speeds well below 150 mph. I have no business connection in VIPAIR. Those of you that may dyno test it do it right, hood down and fan air blowing in the NACA and the front fascia and make sure you're doing it with a warm engine and engine bay like the real world driving conditions. Any other test senarios are worthless. Like GTSNAKE said those of you that are non-belivers can stay stock but your engines will be full of " hot air "

 

[FE 065]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

There's no doubt you got a positive result Tom. Problem is, your test is the only reported test so far.


There's nothing wrong with hashing over the pro and cons, while waiting for more test results before shelling out $150 or whatever it is for one of them. The hot air the too-wide OEM airbox lets in can be blocked off for about $5.00.


Russ reported his dyno based facts and data, and got promptly skewered..

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

I greatly respect the effort that went into testing the airboxes - so what I say is no flame at all...

Dyno's are great for comparisons for changes made etc but will always have limitations. The real world is out on the highway/track - and measuring speed over a set distance and averaging the runs is better than any dyno for this type of thing.

A dyno can say whatever it wants - but when a car consistently runs faster over a measured distance time after time - that is the real world. If the dyno says I lost 10hp but the watch says I'm going 0.1 sec quicker and beating times I did earlier - I'll take the ET.

Above a certain speed there is a ram charging effect that is possible to harness and the dyno does not record that - a fan only simulates it - it is not the same as outside in the real world.

It may be that for 99.99% of driving a good air box loses power or makes no difference over stock.... but if cold air can be rammed at high speed - there has to be a gain from ramming colder air in. If it takes 80mph or even 120mph to achieve that - there is a power increase from 120mph up. That is still a gain.

 

[Newport Viper]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

How much E.T. or MPH can be seen with only a ten HP gain. Not much I bet. Seems like wasted $$$$$ to me. Math gurus?

 

[FE 065]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Man this is tiring.., but a good debate is always healthy You're not going to get much of any any ram when there's 3 big water drains in the bottom of the airbox that will vent any pressure that might build up above the vacuum signal that the engine is pulling. That plus the fact that it's a 2 piece airbox front (top and bottom) that can leak air as well,will pretty much cancel any chance of effective ram. Cooler air? Maybe. Ram? Very doubtful, it'd stand a big chance of bleeding off first. (my water drains are sealed shut..) I'm with ya on the dyno vs racetrack business ... except no one's compared the OEM and Vipair at the track, back to back since we first heard about it way back on June 26. Not even the vendor... Go figure. Maybe at Norwalk Sept 13?

 

[phiebert]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

...about 7 years ago I put a temp gauge with remote probe on the manifold and went for a drive. As I recall (it's been awhile) temps stayed relatively cool-cool enough to put your hands on the intake when I pulled over in disbelief to check my connection. I was really surprised, BUT when you idle or shut the car off, temps shoot up.

A while ago I did a similar test. Stuck a probe through my smooth tubes where they joined the throttle body. I know that isn't testing the manifold temp but it is the next closest thing. I don't have the exact data but basically at normal highway speeds (60 mph) the air temp was the same in the tube as it was if the probe was hanging out my window. Based on the fact that air is not a very good conductor of heat, it is highly likely that the air wouldn't have time to heat up to any degree (no pun intended) before entering the cylinders. The distance between the intake and the cylinders and the speed at which the air is sucked in doesn't allow the necessary time to increase the temp of the air more that a tenth of a degree.

Try a home experiment to prove the point. If you have a baseboard heater in your house somewhere you'll notice that the air above it is hot as it rises away from the baseboard heater. It's moving without being forced, just rising because hot air rises. It doesn't rise until it's warmer than the surrounding air. That is, it has time to heat up. However, if you put a fan under it, you won't notice much of a change in the temperature above it compared to the ambient air around you. You are getting the same amount of heat out of the heater, but you are pumping a lot more air volume past it. You'll heat your house in the same amount of time (or maybe even faster because your using the heat more efficiently) but your "spreading" the heat around faster. So basically if you apply that back to the manifold. At idle, you probably have warmer air going into the cylinders, but when you go WOT you are sucking much more air in and the difference in the outside air temp and that going into the cylinders will be maybe half a degree. That probably makes for half a horsepower too!

 

[Russ M]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Ok guys I am going to try and explain this one more time, so please read carefully.

I did base line tests on both closed hood and open hood, just to see if there was a power difference. There was NONE, numbers were all within 2hp which means the gains with an open hood are null.

This was done to see if a product like the Vipair could make power on a dyno, and the result was NO.

I for one would love to test a Vipair on a dyno for myself, since it is obvious no one else that owns one is interested in finding out.

 

[joe117]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

torquie,
It seems like this would be true.
"Above a certain speed there is a ram charging effect"

But I don't think it is true. I don't believe there is anythng to be gained by ram air intakes at automobile speeds. Aircraft speeds, ok, but not car speed.

I'm talking ram air, not cool air, not avoiding low pressure air. I'm talking ram air. I say it isn't possible to gain anything.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

RUSS M,

I do not understand how you can even comment on the VIPAIR when :

1) You did not even test one, in fact we all don't have a clue exactly what you tested as you have been extremely unclear on exactly what product if any you did test. What exactly did you test??

2) The VIPAIR was dyno tested in front of witnesses that stated that a 10 HP increase was achieved, but since this was not you that did the test, the test is invalid??? Who appointed YOU the supreme being of the dyno test? Maybe we should fly YOU around the country to be the SUPREME witness of all dyno runs in the viper community because we just can't trust anybody else to do it right, right?

3) If all the info you have been slingin in this post is to be believed then SMOOTH TUBES do not work Right? Do K&N filters work? Probably not if you did not test them right? Do cold air boxes on other cars ( like mustangs where they get 28rwhp) that have been dyno proven also not work because you haven't verified the claims personally? Probably not if the VIPAIR doesn't work because they use the same principals, right?

4) Let's face the facts, you wanted to come up with your own cold air device which you said on a previous VIPAIR post, and since you couldn't come up with something that works yourself then nobody's works, right?

It is very unfortunate that some people on this board do not understand the hours and investment in dollars that it takes to develop a product for a car. Russ it takes more than just a day at the dyno bolting on various lenghts of tubing it takes months, it takes a design of a product, not just wingin it with ricer shiiite bolted onto a viper. It takes alot to create and produce custom car parts and it would be nice if the immature could grow up and understand this, otherwise people will just let vipers alone and develop products for cars that are still in production and that have a sold base of tens of thousand per year not fifteen hundred per year. Viper products like the VIPAIR are not big profit centers for the people that develop them, it is a hobby item that maybe one day will pay for itself.

If you do not want one fine, do not buy one, those that do buy one will realize 10 rwhp more than if they did not get one.

Steve

 

[vipah]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Edmonton:

Is this how you win customers over? I could care less how much you spent on a product. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And YOU have to prove it to the customer base, not others. Maybe you need to grow up and understand this.

Russ was pretty clear on what he did, and how he concluded that the VIPAIR would get the same results.

You have not proven that the product works by such a small test. Now if you were really convinced your product works you would GIVE a few demo units out to some independent sources to test, rather than try and force people to pay for it and then ask for a refund.

Face it, there is not fundamental rationale for you claims. Just look at the posts in this thread where people measured the air temps.

Perhaps you can supply some detailed engineering analysis of the temperature vs. HP? I would like to understand exactly what the curve looks like, and how much the temperature needs to drop to provide a 10HP increase.

By the way, you stated in an earlier thread you had a patent on the product. Can you provide the patent number so I can better understand the claims?

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Vipah,

It is incredibly smart to provide evidence of intent to infringe on a patent, keep it up.

As you can see if you look at the previous posts "I" did not make any power increase claims, someone who purchased the product independantly did, as you suggest I should have done.

Are we going to keep going around in circles?

Engineering analysis of why temperature decreases equals horsepower increases, are you for real? Why don't you research it and get back to all of us with "your" analysis.

 

[ntmatter]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Actually, I'm with vipah on this one. Edmonton, if you're wanting to win over customers you maybe shouldn't be insulting everyone who raises questions based on test results. Vipah asked for technical details, and your response was both belittling and threatening. Some valid questions have been raised about whether "cold air" intakes (of any sort) actually provide a valid, measured increase. In my experience they do not - I've run dyno tests with my airbox completely off and have seen no performance difference whatsoever. So, I think it's a reasonable point to raise.

 

[Russ M]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

RUSS M,

I do not understand how you can even comment on the VIPAIR when :

1) You did not even test one, in fact we all don't have a clue exactly what you tested as you have been extremely unclear on exactly what product if any you did test. What exactly did you test??

2) The VIPAIR was dyno tested in front of witnesses that stated that a 10 HP increase was achieved, but since this was not you that did the test, the test is invalid??? Who appointed YOU the supreme being of the dyno test? Maybe we should fly YOU around the country to be the SUPREME witness of all dyno runs in the viper community because we just can't trust anybody else to do it right, right?

3) If all the info you have been slingin in this post is to be believed then SMOOTH TUBES do not work Right? Do K&N filters work? Probably not if you did not test them right? Do cold air boxes on other cars ( like mustangs where they get 28rwhp) that have been dyno proven also not work because you haven't verified the claims personally? Probably not if the VIPAIR doesn't work because they use the same principals, right?

4) Let's face the facts, you wanted to come up with your own cold air device which you said on a previous VIPAIR post, and since you couldn't come up with something that works yourself then nobody's works, right?

It is very unfortunate that some people on this board do not understand the hours and investment in dollars that it takes to develop a product for a car. Russ it takes more than just a day at the dyno bolting on various lenghts of tubing it takes months, it takes a design of a product, not just wingin it with ricer shiiite bolted onto a viper. It takes alot to create and produce custom car parts and it would be nice if the immature could grow up and understand this, otherwise people will just let vipers alone and develop products for cars that are still in production and that have a sold base of tens of thousand per year not fifteen hundred per year. Viper products like the VIPAIR are not big profit centers for the people that develop them, it is a hobby item that maybe one day will pay for itself.

If you do not want one fine, do not buy one, those that do buy one will realize 10 rwhp more than if they did not get one.

Steve

Edmond,

Fact of the matter is I do NOT sell anything to anyone on this board, and share my knowledge for free even though it cost me a considerable amount of cash. On the other hand you DO sell a product, in my book it is YOU who needs to provide results. To date you have ONE dyno test which is questionable, where are all the others?

Cold air kits on other cars do work, but the way they are designed is with work and dyno testing, not build and pray.

Ok let’s face facts,

I did plan on designing a cold air/ram air kit for the viper, but I didn’t. You know why? Anyone with good intentions will know the answer to this question, unfortunately I doubt you will.

 

[vipah]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Edmonton,

Clearly you are foolish. Intent to infringe? I would say that you are showin an intent to defraud. Patents and trademarks are public domain. If you really have one it would show up, and it doesn't. Were you misleading us?

Since it is your product that YOU are making claims about YOU need to justify them. YOU say that there is a 10HP increase because air is cooler. Well, how much cooler is required to get this increase?? If you have put all the work and cost into developing this product you would clearly know the answer.

 

[Vipermed 97.01]

A lot of unnessesary flame in this thread.The bottom line is this is a very affordable product that is functional.most of us spend more on interior gadgets with no possible gains whatsoever.When this product originally came out as a knockoff of our airboxes in an attempt to make something functional that everyone could afford.Anyone that knows me,my products and my buisiness practices knows that i stand behind 100% of my products.This vipair is a joint effort between myself and Steve Prescott.To enable great coverage on both sides of the globe.When this was introduced we were asked by many to make it in plastic and more affordable.This was done.Also in an effort to keep cost down,we allowed some test subjects out there .which for one reason or another we have not heard from all.But non the less we are happy with customer opinion and the little testing that was done.This is far from a new theory,it has been proven for years on and off the track.All in all i feel that we have made a very affordable and functional product and all consructive criticism is appreciated

 

[utahviper]

Russ M

What products did you actually test? Did you do a H M S airbox, elite, K&N, etc? I want to know what was tested, ie brand names. Until you test some known airboxes, besides stock(good one to test), plumbing in your own pipes just doesn't work for me. I am not starting my own arguement I am just curious what brands were tested.

 

[vipah]

Vipermed:

I think getting some of the third party results will be very helpful to understand what the potential is. Were they sent to some of the bigger names that post here?

I agree, cold air = more power. What would be a good sanity check is to understand how much colder than ambient is required to achieve 10HP. I don't know. I would hope that people that are building products that make claims in this regard would know.

As far as flames go, I think your partner is the one that really got it going.

If you can provide the patent number that would be great. So far I have found nothing when searching the UPSTO site. I can assure you that I have no plans to build this. I do a lot of patent work and am curious.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

torquie,
It seems like this would be true.
"Above a certain speed there is a ram charging effect"

But I don't think it is true. I don't believe there is anythng to be gained by ram air intakes at automobile speeds. Aircraft speeds, ok, but not car speed.

I'm talking ram air, not cool air, not avoiding low pressure air. I'm talking ram air. I say it isn't possible to gain anything.

come on Joe - you're just getting nostalgic about the good ol days when we used to fight tooth and nail

Actually - I'm only parroting what Ford and Chrysler claimed back in the muscle car days - they said that their ram air systems were worth 10-15hp from around 100mph up. I've never independently tested for that - you could be right on most systems.... I think the cold air is probably making more of a difference at speed than the ram effect as you say - if you think about it the faster the air blows the cooler the air will get through a duct - like wind in a tunnel.... however there will be a ram effect where the opening is large to catch a large volume of air then shove it into a smaller duct - Mopar used to claim that to get 15hp you needed a 30 square inch hood scoop.... that is why some of the Hemi cars ran such large hood scoops. It is unlikely you could build such a big air intake area into a Viper - therefore a ram effect may not be feasible - but the cooling effect of high speed would still help.

What do you think?

 

[joe117]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Many people think and air scoop of some kind will give a ram air boost. It just ain't so.
Here's a link that gives the fluid dynamics of it in very understandable terms.

http://www.vetteguru.com/ramair/

And I think what he said.

 

[DEVILDOG]

Vipermed:



I agree, cold air = more power. What would be a good sanity check is to understand how much colder than ambient is required to achieve 10HP. I don't know.

HELLO...HELLO...HELLO...anybody out there listening? The VIPAIR replaces UNDERHOOD HEATED AIR with OUTSIDE AMBIENT AIR FROM THE FRONT FASCIA!!!! What do you think the temperature difference is between these two sources...maybe 400+ degrees cooler ambient than underhood? Now do your calculations to see if the VIPAIR adds much cooler air to your airbox intake, and therefor, additional HP & TQ! I think we are dealing with a lot of 10 IQs not 10 HP!

 

[scottgf]

The question still remains.....how much colder does the air have to get to increase the hp by 10?
I think most understand that getting air from the facia area would be cooler than under the hood.....But to get 10 hp does the air have to be 10 degrees cooler, 100 degrees cooler, 1000 degrees cooler??????
Anyone....Anyone????
Cheers,

 

[vipah]

Devildog:

HELLO HELLO HELLO -- Did you read the posts that someone put a thermo couple in front of the throttle body and it was the SAME as the outside air temp? Guess not. Perhaps you need to learn to read more carefully, then you might improve on yor 10 IQ. *****.