is there a big difference in non abs cars?

[04mystic]

Ive always been leary of owning an older viper because of no abs. Especially if I plan on modding it. Ive only owned 03 and above. School me a little

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

This is going to raise debate as it always does. But I definitely believe the ABS cars are significantly better in the braking department over their non ABS counterparts.

Thats why I only am interested in 01/02 ACRs.

Jon

 

[04mystic]

I love the way the srts stop on a dime. But Id like to pick up a 97 b/w and throw a roe supercharger on it, just dont want to get in a bind if I need to shut it down in a hurry.

 

[Mccarlin]

It's a double edged sword. You want ABS? you get no forged motor. For me it was simple, get the forged motor and learn how to drive a non-abs car.

No regrets here at all.

 

[04mystic]

So what did you have to teach yourself?

 

[Mopar Steve]

I smile when I read the ABS V/S non ABS. The muscle cars I grew up with barely had brakes. Drum brakes all the way arround, no disks (that was for high dollar cars that were way out of my league) Just learn to anticipate what is going to happen 5 to 6 minutes from now and plan ahead! My 94 and 96 out brake anything I grew up with.

 

[Mccarlin]

So what did you have to teach yourself?

To not just stomp on the brakes in an emergency. These tires are expensive and flat spots don't help

 

[Mccarlin]

I smile when I read the ABS V/S non ABS. The muscle cars I grew up with barely had brakes. Drum brakes all the way arround, no disks (that was for high dollar cars that were way out of my league) Just learn to anticipate what is going to happen 5 to 6 minutes from now and plan ahead! My 94 and 96 out brake anything I grew up with.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[V10SpeedLuvr]

So what did you have to teach yourself?

To not just stomp on the brakes in an emergency.

That sums it up very nicely. The Viper is my 4th car and none have had ABS and I'm not dead yet. And driving in GA for the past 9+ years, thats saying a lot

 

[Vreracing]

The flat spots are a problem.

I've hit the brakes hard enough to lock up twice in a 98GTS.

I put up with tires that thumped for quite a while both times.

 

[DrDJ]

Did you end up changing your tires or did they eventually stop thumping? One "advantage" of the non ABS Viper front brake bias is that at least you only flat spot two tires. Will putting the front tires on the rear and then doing a few burnouts help? (I guess I would have to borrow some other wheel and tires to go up front.)

DrDJ

 

[ROCKET62]

While not ABS - there are a number of brake upgrades from Tom's rear caliper upgrade to Dave's Big Brake kit which can significantly improve braking. Funny, but the only time I can even remember ABS going off in any car I've had is during heavy rain or snow - which the Viper will never see anyhow.

I went with Tom's rear caliper upgrade which only cost $600 and the braking difference was night and day!

 

[beckertb]

Here was my latest front lock-up. I was at 190 and had to hit the brakes hard and induced lock-up (probably about 1 second). I have the Brembo GT front brakes from Archer and Tom's 40 mm rear upgrade.

[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/beckertb/P1010001-1.jpg?t=1165292271[/image]

Happy motoring,

Ben

 

[syldogRT/10]

I think ABS is way over rated, unless you never drove a non ABS car I guess. Non of the cars I had growing up were ABS so maybe I'm biased. If I had my choice all the cars I buy would be non ABS and non traction control. In my opinion these 'aids' as they call them are more of a hindrance. Maybe that's why I bought a Gen1. Just my opinion.

 

[Gavin]

Ive always been leary of owning an older viper because of no abs. Especially if I plan on modding it. Ive only owned 03 and above. School me a little

Absolutely there is a difference
I own a 2001 VRL Race car and I have the ABS on a switch so can turn it off.
With the ABS off I'm prone to flat spotting tires
With the ABS on I can drive into any corner deeper than a non-abs viper - not even close.

However - I also had a 96 GTS and put 41,000 on it including a bunch of open track time and never flat spotted mt Michelin Pilot Sports.

DOT race tires flat spot easily in comparison to the Street Michelins

The brakes on the Gen 2 cars are reasonable but not great for a car with this much grunt. The aftermarket has great solutions.

If you are passionate about owning a Gen 2 car there are a heck of a lot of other issues I would have before being concerned about abs or not.
As someone else said in this thread - how oftem does anyone get into the abs in any type of street vehicle?

If I went back into the Gen 2 market I would purchase either a 96 GTS or 2002 FinalEdition
The GTS would have to have had ALL of the technical service bulleting work done on it meaning it would have - the 97 alarm sysem - 97 fan kit - 97 door uprights, 97 sills,just to name a few of the TbS's and mileage under 10K.

The 2002 final edition - red w/stripes, under 10K
I would drive the AXX of either one for the next twenty years, then restore and sell for a bundle.

2002 final

 

[C O D Y]

I have driven a non ABS and and ABS viper. HANDS DOWN the ABS is worth its weight in GOLD!

Trying to say that the old muscle cars didn't have ABS so new ones don't need it is BS. Old cars didn't have seat belts and airbags either... and lots of people didn't die driving them, BUT the first time you need a seat belt, airbag or ABS and it's not there?????? Not a chance I'm willing to take with my life. You might have a different value on your life. Your call.

 

[luc]

Interesting debate, no doubt,as Cody said than ABS is/could be a safety factor, but that is missing the point, not having a Viper and staying in bed all day would be even safer.

The real question, at least for me, is which car, ABS VS non-ABS , will I enjoy driving the most.

On general terms, for transportation, being with my tow truck or daily drivers,were "driving pleasure/skills" is not part of the equation, I want ABS and traction contol.

For my "fun" cars, being my Viper or race cars,I want it raw and simple, where everything the car do ( or don't) is the direct result of the driver input and not controled and modified by a computer.

Will I be able to be faster on a race track with ABS, sure, so what?
At least I know that whatever lap times I turn are a true reflection of my driving skills and being able to brake turns after turns, laps after laps without locking my tires or missing the apex ,bring me a personal satisfaction that will be missing with ABS.

Luc 00GTS

 

[ASKYOURWIFE]

I decided on a 99 rt10 over an 03 SRT 10 soley because the 99 was all forged...

I had a 04 corvette before this car and I was always so jelous of 03 Cobra owners and supra owners who could get 600 rwhp PLUS, simply buy bolting on products and never touching the inner engine...

With my C5...450 rwhp was considered the maximum safe limit before you had to start worrying about things falling apart. To get more than 450 rwhp you HAD to go FI as well as you HAD to upgrade the internals or you were running on borrowed time...500 rwhp would be SERIOUSLY pushing it...

So 450 rwhp NA or 500 rwhp FI seemed limp wristed compared to the 03 cobras and supras that could put out well over 600 rwhp on stock internals...

But with the 99 Viper...Well Im thinking of only doing one mod to the car...

A 200 WET SHOT, THAT SHOULD GIVE ME WELL OVER 600 RWHP, MAYBE EVEN A 300 SHOT...

OVER 700 RWHP FOR AROUND 1000$ INSTALLED. Dont get me wrong ABS would be nice to have. But to me 600-700 rwhp so easily attained more than makes up for it.

 

[Final GTS 286]

I agree with gavin and cody. ABS is, hands down, far better to have.
It is much safer for street duty, although I have never activated it on the street.
It is much faster at the track, ie faster lap times and therefore way more fun!
The folks that like non-ABS cars, possibly never experienced ABS on the race track or street. But I think it's just a sign of the times. I do not want a car that still has technology from the 1960's.
As for driving a car that controled or modified by a computer, that is unavoidable in any modern car. Computers control many aspects of all the vipers. Are F1 cars less fun to drive than Stock cars? I don't think so!

 

[99 R/T 10]

Here was my latest front lock-up. I was at 190 and had to hit the brakes hard and induced lock-up (probably about 1 second). I have the Brembo GT front brakes from Archer and Tom's 40 mm rear upgrade.

[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/beckertb/P1010001-1.jpg?t=1165292271[/image]

Happy motoring,

Ben

Here is Ben's tire pic.

http://gallery.viperclub.org/data/500/tires.jpg

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

It's worth having some figures to go by.
http://www4.forum.viperclub.org/showflat...3t972bq7hns4ab0

Data from same car, same weight, same street tires, same OEM pads, same road, same day (1.5 hours difference) and crummy driver in a customer car show a non-ABS car is normally ~0.8 G deceleration rate, improving to over 1.0 G with a rear brake upgrade alone.

Data from a Gen 3 car, factoring in the obvious differences noted above and braking is up to 1.1 to 1.2 G deceleration rate.

Back to opinion again, and I'll just say that for purposeful manuevers such as track braking, traffic, autocross, etc you can be pretty close in performance. I've come up to some well braking cars from behind coming into turns, so at least in a straight line my non-ABS car is not lacking.

For some unplanned events, such as irregular surfaces, extremely slippery surfaces, etc, ABS will always have an advantage by being able to brake each wheel individually.

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

For some unplanned events, such as irregular surfaces, extremely slippery surfaces, etc, ABS will always have an advantage by being able to brake each wheel individually.

Speaking of ABS in general--not just Vipers--Something many do not realize is that for maximum ABS effect on a slippery surface--you have to mash the brake pedal to get all 4 corners into ABS. Applying the brakes gradually, or even with moderate force, till ABS is engaged will only modulate the first corner starting to lock up--not necessarily the other wheels. The other wheels could still lock up. Maybe the systems are more sophisticated today, but that's what we were taught at the Bragg-Smith Corvette school in 2002.

Steve

 

[Vreracing]

After about a year the thumping seems to only be a problem when the tires are cold.

Hadn't thought of the idea of putting them on the back and spinning them.

 

[So. Florida Blue Devil]

Having driven open wheel racers, street bikes, muscle cars and the like, it's a simple matter of knowing when and how to brake. If you anticipate and downshift you don't brake as hard. Know your surroundings and "out routes" in an emergency. I drive cars now with and without ABS and don't really see much difference in my braking thoughts.

 

[QUICKV10]

I believe non-abs saved me from totalling my viper last year. The quick side of the story is this: I was heading into Chicago out of Rockford on I-90 cruising at about 70, slowly passing a big truck and a car. I was directly even with the car with the semi to pass yet and ding **** next to me decides to move over in my lane and pass the semi, now had he not heard my tires lock up and squeeeeling, he would of slammed right into me and it would not of been good.

When my senses came back and after catching up to him and flying the BIRD next to him for a good 30sec, I was shure that the only reason my car isn't totaled to this day, was my non-abs brake system. But, ofcoarse, each system has its benefits, just my .02

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Perhaps the horn should made to sound when the ABS kicks in so that there is some warning to others.

 

[Martin2000GTS]

Hey Guys.
Heres my opinion on ABS cars. I have a 2000 with no ABS and no forged pistons . Anyways last Saturday I was driving about 35 mph through a traffic light and another car didnt look and entered the intersection. I slammed on my brakes and locked them up for about 30-35 feet im guessing???? Anywways I hit the other car just barely on my left side (the left side of the viper scraped the front right bumper of the dodge stratus.) There were minor paint marks from the front left bumber to the middle of my driver door. What im saying is my car didnt come to a stop because I hit the car (because the minor scraping of the side obviously wouldnt slow down a 3500 lb car. But I bet if I had ABS i would have been able to stop at least 10 feet short and avoided the accident.
Now I heard that a lot of "race cars/ indy cars" i guess you would call them dont have ABS??? If this is true then maybe for the true professional race car driver it would be beter not to have ABS because they know what their doing? I heard it was called threshold braking? Anyways most viper owners im guessing like my self arent professional drivers and ABS could certainly have helped me out last Saturday. I have locked up the brakes 3 times in 2 years. I believe most of us get nervous in a situation like that and dont think to quickly let go and do what your suposed to do (which I dont even know is) haha
Drive safe!
Martin

 

[DrDJ]

had he not heard my tires lock up and squeeeeling, he would of slammed right into me...

Interesting. My tires don't squeel one bit. The rears make a scuffing sound when spinning under acceleration. Hit the brakes too hard in a straight line and the only way that you know that the fronts are locked is by the diminished deceleration rate versus pre-lockup and the smoke in the rearview mirror...

DrDJ

 

[crazyspeed]

Here was my latest front lock-up. I was at 190 and had to hit the brakes hard and induced lock-up (probably about 1 second). I have the Brembo GT front brakes from Archer and Tom's 40 mm rear upgrade.
[Ben

Here is Ben's tire pic.

http://gallery.viperclub.org/data/500/tires.jpg

Yikes Ben you really jumped all over the brake pedal when your Valentine One went off at 190 mph

 

[propsail]

QUOTE: "Applying the brakes gradually, or even with moderate force, till ABS is engaged will only modulate the first corner starting to lock up--not necessarily the other wheels. The other wheels could still lock up."

It's my understanding it takes about 45 lbs of pressure to get a good full activation of ABS.

On a side note, there was a rear end crash once and the guy who rear ended the other car tried to sue the manufacturer saying that if his car DIDN"T have ABs, the guy in front of him would have heard his car skidding and could have moved out of the way!! Sheesh.
~Craig