This was my only complaint about the new car. The coil covers ****... took a page right out of the C5/C6 playbook with this one. It confuses me becuase the GEN-IV motor has coil packs, but still looks **** with red valve covers and clean red coilpack covers that integrate very nicely with the valve covers. Does anyone know what's different about the GEN-V motor that they had to go to such a funky/ugly valve cover and coil pack setup that they just covered it up?
Plastic engine covers look terrible..
- Thread starter 2000_Black_RT10
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It is very obvious from your own picture that the actual valve cover with the coils mounted to it, under the plastic cover, is exactly the SAME valve cover in my photo with the Carbon coil cover. It is not composite. It cant be: coils need a ground path when mounted. Believe me when I tell you it is aluminum, and likely identical to the Gen-4 parts.
The black plastic piece is just a cover mounted to the old valve cover to change the look, and probably to better match the "plasticy" looking new intake manifold top. What you are calling an Engine Cover, is just a glorified Coil Cover that is 10x bigger and higher than needed, since we all know what is underneath it. My point is not what CAN be done, we all know that the aftermarket can fix these issues. My point is what WAS done. I think we can all agree that the Viper is no place for Plastic parts like this. We are talking ounces of weight difference compared to aluminum on a Coil Cover, and we all know the CF looks considerably better. In fact, I bet it would have cost them less money to re-mold the original aluminum versions in CF than to create that new one they are using, unless they snagged it from the new Hemi or something.
As far as the manifold goes, I have no problem with a composite lower, but the upper SHOULD be aluminum. The upper weighs next to nothing as it is, and the plastic upper means no more polishing, no more powder coating, etc. These changes were a function of cost and/or poor judgement on the part of SRT, nothing more.
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As stated above, my guess is that they just wanted to integrate with the new manifold look. It was a bad move.
If that's all it's for then yeah... really stupid idea. However, good to know it can be easily fixed with the GEN-IV covers.
That was exactly my point. There are no coil covers as you shout.
ORLY?
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Composite intake = less heat soak. Not the first or last time aluminum engine parts have been swapped out for composite. They flow better and reject heat better.
I agree with you on these comments:
CF looks better than plastic
Aluminum looks better than plastic
But the facts on automotive engine, composite intake manifolds reject heat better and typically flow better than the stock aluminum counter part. The new Viper is about advancing technology, and that often has to do with replacing aluminum counterparts such as x braces and intake manifolds with titanium and composite. If you want that large heat sink of an intake manifold over a composite one, that's fine. Many manufacturers including Dodge in the past realized the advantage to composite.
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AZTVR
Enthusiast
LOL at some of the banter above over wordsmithing; but, good natured,( I hope. )
Engineering speak = coil pack covers. Average guy speak = engine stuff covers = engine cover
We will just have to live with the fact that SRT could not justify the added cost to have good looking engine mechanicals, whether that was the cost of the parts or the cost of development and schedule delay. I am certain that they knew what was desirable. As an engineer, I know that we almost NEVER get what we know is the optimum design into the final product.
I have seen a Vette engine without coil pack covers that I thought was a better solution than having the covers. Our problem is that the aftermarket sales volume probably is not big enough to do something like this for the Viper because many owners wouldn't even care.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-...rs-coilpack-relocation-nicer-than-covers.html
Engineering speak = coil pack covers. Average guy speak = engine stuff covers = engine cover
We will just have to live with the fact that SRT could not justify the added cost to have good looking engine mechanicals, whether that was the cost of the parts or the cost of development and schedule delay. I am certain that they knew what was desirable. As an engineer, I know that we almost NEVER get what we know is the optimum design into the final product.
I have seen a Vette engine without coil pack covers that I thought was a better solution than having the covers. Our problem is that the aftermarket sales volume probably is not big enough to do something like this for the Viper because many owners wouldn't even care.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-...rs-coilpack-relocation-nicer-than-covers.html
Cobraken
Enthusiast
I WANT the X brace.
Fatboy 18
Enthusiast
Me too, wonder if that will fit on a Gen 2 GTS
What exactly do you think those covers are? They are indeed Coil Covers- just a ridiculously huge and flamboyant version of them.
How another manufacturer chooses to wire their ignition system is a moot point in this conversation, I cannot see with enough detail how that system is wired. However, it does look like the area where the COP is inserted, is NOT plastic. Look at the texture difference- it screams crinkle finish powder-coat, which must have a metal component underneath. Regardless, the fact is, that a Gen-4 ignition coil is a primary/secondary inductive type coil, that gets a 12V feed and a pulsed ground through a IGBT type transistor that forms the ignition pulse circuit. The coil winding MUST be grounded to the cover, as it does not have provisions for grounding through the wiring harness indirectly. Hence: That cover is not composite.
I never argued for a second that a composite LOWER intake manifold is not a good idea. I did however state that the UPPER intake manifold being composite, I do not like. The upper has next to zero to do with heat soak or thermal rejection. The upper manifold weighs less than 3 pounds on a Gen-4, the lower is the piece where weight can be saved and thermal transfer can be reduced- not the top. The top being composite serves only to prevent any type of cosmetic change without replacement.
Believe me when I tell you that I am well aware of all of the advantages and disadvantages in what we are talking about here... have a look in my profile, this is what I do.
Not possible without a Gen-4 head conversion to accompany. Intake manifold flanges on Gen-1/2/3 are completely different than Gen-4+
I'm sorry, I was replying to a thread titled "Plastic engine covers look terrible" Not "plastic coil covers look terrible
I showed you a pic of a Dodge Caliber and Dodge 5.7 Hemi engine. The list goes on and on of Dodge models and manufactures which use plastic composite valve covers. Aluminum is not required. I assure you as an owner of both vehicles mentioned. I am fully aware how a COP setup operates. I am not disputing the fact that the Gen 4 was aluminum. I was simply commenting I wouldn't be surprised one bit if they moved to composite because it is totally possible. It's black, they were looking to save weight, Dodge has moved to composite with most other vehicles. If it's aluminum that is fine too, because it obviously works.
Nor did I argue with you about the lower or upper based on weight. I read your comments, I understood them the first time. No need to repeat yourself. There is an advantage to having a composite upper, it has nothing to do with with simply preventing cosmetic change. Get over it.
I don't need to nor do I care. Go ahead, continue complaining you engineer you!
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2000_Black_RT10
Enthusiast
Going back to the OP subject, just some pics of engines without large plastic covers covering the valve covers, etc..
(mine below..)
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(mine below..)
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I agree. I love exposed engines. If its the same VC as Gen 4 its an easy fix, either at the factory or aftermarket. I absolutely love the Gen4 IM over the looks of the composite gen 5. But if the composite has better performance, composite it is!
But if a cup holder and large engine covers are the biggest complaint of the car, I say job well done
goldcup
Enthusiast
I stood and looked at the car from all different angles for an hour. Not perfect and I do like seeing the mechanical bits. But The design stayed true to what a Viper should look like! ( my opinion) Car appears to be a giant leap forward in quality of fit and finish and the interior is drop dead gorgeous!
eucharistos
Enthusiast
N2 Vipers
Enthusiast
I think they should make everything out of steel. That way you guys could chrome everything and make it look cool. Forget about weight loss and heat transfer the Viper is not heavy enought right? Oh, take off the X bar, then you can see the engine better. Of course it will loose chasis rigitity and won't look as good, who cares if the dam thing makes it handle better? You guys ***** about everything!
Man... I feel like I am arguing in the Special Olympics here. We have come full circle. Quite frankly, I could care less what you or anyone else wants to call them. I was only commenting on YOUR comment that they were not "Coil Covers"
And this... is where it shows that you haven't been paying attention to one thing I have actually been saying, and have just been arguing for the sake of arguing. Let me break it down for you: The coil used on the Gen-5, is the SAME COIL, that is used on the Gen-4. That coil is an inductive coil that requires a ground path when it is secured down, as the winding mounts are ground. Hence, there is NO WAY that the Gen-5 valve cover is composite. Get it? What coil configurations are used on other engines or from other manufacturers are completely irrelevant. Does the Viper have Smart Coils? NO. Does the Viper have CDI Coils? NO. Does the Viper have a Dual Plug configuration where one plug forms the "ground path" for the secondary winding? NO. Does the Viper have a 2-wire 12V/IGBT triggered externally grounded inductive type coil that needs to be secured to a conductive surface to complete the secondary winding path? SURE DOES.
Apparently, I do need to repeat myself, as I did above. There is a BIG advantage to a composite upper... its cheaper to produce. That does not necessarily make it better. You are splitting hairs on any other performance increase, with a HUGE negative, namely the inability to do anything with it. You might not care, but I do.
Its obvious you don't care, because you don't really want to hear nor pay attention to what is being said while you blindly defend whatever it is that you are defending. I had a point, I made it long ago. You took it off topic and out into left field with claims and unrelated opinions on what I had originally said.
You have your opinion, I have mine. Leave it at that. If you want to get into a debate about how these components actually work, or an actual benefit comparison between them, I am all ears- and I have plenty of experience on these engines and components -seeing as I build them for a living- to back up my opinions and comments on the subject. Otherwise, we are just going around in circles with no end and no point.
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You are confusing criticism aimed at improvement with sarcasm aimed at.......... well, good question.
If you wouldn't trade 1 pound for the ability to make your engine look a WHOLE lot better, you are only fooling yourself. Hell, I bet those goofy covers weigh more than the weight difference between a composite and aluminum upper manifold. So, I guess your comment doesn't hold water.
A cross brace made from different materials would be substantially stiffer without a weight penalty. The same applies to simply changing the shape of the materials used. While I have said before it is better than nothing, I would like to see something that is more visually appealing, or at least more functional. If I am going to have something in the way all the time- it better be REALLY functional or REALLY pretty.
Paul Hawker
Enthusiast
While I am a huge fan of this new car, those covers have got to go.
Hope SRT takes another look at them from a cosmetic aspect.
Love that solid look from the gen IV. Looks substantial, and purposful.
For some reason they do not look integrated into the design.
Hope SRT takes another look at them from a cosmetic aspect.
Love that solid look from the gen IV. Looks substantial, and purposful.
For some reason they do not look integrated into the design.
AZTVR
Enthusiast
I hope that the SRT engineers are reading this thread. They certainly go to car shows where 75% of cars are displayed with hoods UP; so, they know that what we are talking about is part of what we take pride in. We totally understand and want performance as number 1; but, we think we can have both performance and aesthetics equally, here. I hope that SRT can be something like a small manufacturer that can respond to customer/enthusiast inputs in a quick manner. i.e., not waiting until the next model change.
( You may note from my screen name that I am also a TVR enthusiast. Not a manufacturer for SRT to aspire to be in a financial sense; but, one that combined aesthetics and performance very well, and could respond to enthusiast's desires very quickly and often. At least until they went bankrupt. LOL ! )
edit: P.S. I do not display my car at car shows; but, sitting in the paddock this past weekend at a Porsche club HPDE event, with hood up and engine cooling down, more than one person walked by and looking under the hood, had a positive comment, including "AWESOME". The new model certainly gives up that aspect of owning an exotic sports car.
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That's because Porsche guys never get to admire the powerplant. In most cases it's tucked away hidden from view. Unless you get your rocks off looking at a plastic intake tube and some fans
GTSnake
Enthusiast
Thank you! Finally somebody with some sense. The valve (coil pack) covers are plastic because it's lightweight, inexpensive and necessary to cover up ugly coil packs. If it was left uncovered there would be even more roars of complaints.
Interesting how the comparisons of other engine above are mostly Ferraris and Lambos. Are you really comparing apples to apples? Cars that cost 2 to 3 times the Viper certainly can afford to use more exotic materials because their budget is higher. If you're willing to pay $150-200k for a Viper than certainly the covers can easily be changed. People seem to forget Chrysler is still a public company that needs to generate a profit. Therefore there are budgets that need to be met. It's nice to think that Viper is a product of passion and budgets shouldn't be considered. But coming back to reality if there were no dollar and sense to the program it sure wouldn't exist very long as evident in the last 3 years of production gap.
This is a perfect example of can't please everyone all of the time.
I personally love them and think they are a good solution. If the aftermarket people want to make something better, more power to them. There is no stopping people from customizing their cars. Chrysler has even dived into that having more customizing options on this gen Viper than any other.
I think you miss the point. The Gen-IV motor has coil-packs and they covered them up nicely w/o resorting to Corvette-style plastic covers. See below:
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Others in this thread have said the Gen-V rocker cover and coil-pack setup is the same. If that's the case why not cover the coils in the same manner as the above pics vs. resorting to ugly plastic covers that cover it all up? Even with the composite manifold and if the rocker covers are composite as well they should be able to do this.
2000_Black_RT10
Enthusiast
To uncover my opinion a bit, I've designed quite a bit of stuff in my career including covers and plastic (some refer to them loosely as composite because of the added glass fibre in the resin) intake manifolds, from 2 piece clamshell injected molded (and for Chrysler in the past) to lost core technology. Plastic manifolds are lighter and cheaper to manufacture depending on the volume, but aluminum can be feasible, in the end it comes down to consolidating features (injector bores, etc.), smooth runners, mold tooling, material costs and post machining. It's always been a goal of mine to design functional and good looking parts and always thought it was cool that Vipers didn't have large engine covers like the masses. Engine covers typically are used to isolate engine noises, and sometimes for Ped-Pro (pedestrian protection, when a person slams onto a hood it can shield sharp engine objects from piercing the hood or absorb some of the impact energy), as well as an attempt to clean up the look hiding electrical components, injectors, etc.. as what they typically refer to this as being perceived quality.
You are correct that you can never please everyone, been dealing with that my entire career in automotive design in many aspects, yet we should all feel free to share an opinion.
Here's a couple more engine pics without large plastic covers, first one definitely costs less than a Ferrari or Lamborghini, only reason that I showed those pics previously were because of the Italian influence in the previous Viper engine design appearance being aluminum / magnesium with crinkle paint / rough surfaces and bright machined highlights, etc..
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Cheers,
Mike
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2000_Black_RT10
Enthusiast
Good comment Paul, you get it. Many times I worked with the folks in the studios and do remember a discussion about an engine bay that we were reviewing about 15 years ago or so, they were looking at the air cleaner box, resonators, intake, etc.. and the studio folks at Chrysler said "the parts don't talk to eachother", and made some changes. In other words, what you just just said; they do not look integrated.
Cheers,
Mike
Paul Hawker
Enthusiast
Think they may have been trying to carry over the interior design into the engine compartment.
Not really a big deal. An aftermarket Carbon Fiber look should make it all better.
Not really a big deal. An aftermarket Carbon Fiber look should make it all better.
Paul Hawker
Enthusiast
Think they may have been trying to carry over the interior design into the engine compartment. <br><br>Not really a big deal. An aftermarket Carbon Fiber look should make it all better.
