Roadracing...skill Vs racing tires?

[ElDiablo Viper]

If you are not driving your car to the limit on stock tires would changing to racing tire give you faster times?
I don't think so. See my argument with this guy. http://forum.rallyfreak.com/zerothread?id=702

He thinks that by changing to racing slicks he will be able to make up 8 sec that he is behind.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

He will take some time off, especially with Hoosiers, Toyos, etc., but no where near 8 seconds. Seat time or driving school is in his cards, and then sticker rubber.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I agree with the ****. Learn to max the equipment you have then upgrade.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck 98 RT/10:
I agree with the ****. Learn to max the equipment you have then upgrade.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto, I ran street tires for 25 track days, I learned the dynamics and limits of the car on street tires and went to Hoosiers. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Gavin]

I'm also doing it Ron's way - Street tires howl like a son of a gun and still stick, they scream for a long time before breaking loose - great for someone still learning. Slicks will stick and stick and stick then break loose with very little warning.


When its about going out there to learn and have fun, I have to say are a pretty safe way to accomplish that. Keep in mind in the Viper we hit speeds of 120mph to 130 mph , no roll cages or fire suppression - maybe we are a bit nuts to do this. So put slicks on, go even quicker and for what..... the risk factor goes up quite a bit I think not to mention the wear and tear on the car and the cost of consumables. Stay with street tires and bearings, pads, rotors etc last a lot longer.

I run street tires, am amazed at the grip they have, and at the end of a weekend at the track, I'm stuffed, tired, worn out, very fullfilled, content..... its enough for me.

 

[Jim Hodel]

I'm tired of the street tires on my Viper squeeling and howling and going soft after only a few laps, although I still drive it that way. I drove my modded Z28 for a couple of years w/o 'race' tires and put on a set of Comp TA R1a's and went 5 seconds a lap faster the very first session at PIR (Portland).

So, while I don't think I have run the absolute fastest times possible on street tires in my Viper, race tires would be a welcome change.

Jim

 

[Hoosier Daddy]

In the end you will become faster sooner starting on the stock street tires by improving your driving skills and learning the proper lines and techniques. Then move up to the race rubber. I started the opposite and found myself really horsing the car around the track on race rubber because I knew it would stick no matter how bad I drove the line. Then I couldn't drive a lick on the street tires. If your maxed out on the street tires the Hoosiers should cut another 4 seconds off on most tracks.

 

[Sonny 00 GTS ACR]

Gavin made some very good points.

Another to consider: how long is the life of the tires? DOT tires or actual slicks don't last forever. Tire wear would depend on among other things, track conditions, air temperature and your driving style. The camber setting may need to be different for various tracks - not just to get the most performance, but to keep certain sections of the tire from heating up too much. The camber, toe settings and air pressure adjustments become much more of an issue with higher performance tires.

Street tires can teach you a great deal while you are learning and last a lot longer to save you money.

 

[Gavin]

ONE IMPORTANT ISSUE that Sonny raises - the life of the tire - it is not related to wear, but rather "heat cycles"
Each time you go on track get the tires to operating temp then they cool off after your session is over, is considered one heat cycle.
Slicks are good for approximately 15 heat cycles.

Also the age of the tire matters - they begin to deteriorate from the day the tire is made.

Skip Thomas, Viper Days, goes over and over this stuff - a driver may have plenty of rubber on his slicks but how old is the tire and how many heat cycles dictate whether the tire can perform

 

[Moundir]

Hey I'm the guy chasing Eldiablo. I dont need to shave 8 seconds off. Only 5-6 at most. First and foremost, I was 6 seconds behind his best lap and this is with a messed up suspension(stock bushings are shot front of car sits higher than rear)poor brakes, stock setup with about 30%brake pad life left, skipping motor with an exaust leak to boot

Not too bad since he has more hp and tq than me

here is a short in car vid of Eldiablo passing me

http://www.extremeapex.com/content/media/videos/flames.mpg
I figure the tires and fixing my suspension is good for 3-4 seconds, and better brakes say Stoptechs are good for another 2-3 seconds, and fixing the motor is another 2 seconds. Add it all up and I will have Adams but on a silver platter

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

Mike...you know that was not my best time and the best that I saw for you on the hot lap timer was 2:27 with my 2:19 LOL. All that you have is a list of buts...but but and a few if, if...so do it once and beat me at something. It is boring to be on top all the time. LOL It is funny that you alredy paid more than new Viper for your Corvette and still can't keep up.

 

[Snake Bitten]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElDiablo Viper:
It is funny that you already paid more than new Viper for your Corvette and still can't keep up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So this isn't a tire issue after all...problem solved...buy a viper!

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Hmmmmm....me thinks you both should go to Racing School with the Woodhouse Group,and then ( since you will both be in identical cars) we will see who is " Da Fastest!" So far, I see it as a dead tie in the area of most talented bench racer. I will personally buy you both a drink if you show up, and it would be a blast to write about the winner after we return.

 

[Hoosier Daddy]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Add it all up and I will have Adams but on a silver platter
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey what you two guys do behind closed doors in private is of no concern to us.

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moundir:

Originally posted by ElDiablo Viper:
Mike...you know that was not my best time and the best that I saw for you on the hot lap timer was 2:27 with my 2:19 LOL. All that you have is a list of buts...but but and a few if, if...so do it once and beat me at something. It is boring to be on top all the time. LOL It is funny that you alredy paid more than new Viper for your Corvette and still can't keep up.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dude my best lap was 2:25 and I did that will all the crap going on with my car

I will beat you this is a promiss, first on the street from a roll or stop, you pick and then on the track

Just wait till my car is fixed punk

For the record...I beat you 4 times at Watkins Glen and in the rain I even laped you LOL. I also beat you 2 times at Mid-Ohio the track that none of us knew. I even have PIC's of 2 Hondas beating you at Mid-Ohio while they had 200HP less. When I got the car and your car was "runinng OK" I still beat you on the street. From that point on the beating continued till this day. I end this year as the KING LOL. This year only two cars pased me at the track. One was older Race only TT Porsche with instructor driving it and the second was also 911 GT2 with racing slicks and instructor driving it and that was my first time at the track.


Bill, I'll be at the Viper Days...to show the Vette guy who is the KING!

 

[Mike H]

If you guys think 2:19 and 2:25 is anywhere fast you need to start driving the track in more than 3rd gear.....or definitely take some driver schools. I ran with Hoosiers, just warming up laps of 2:09 and 2:10 at Watkins Glen. That is a stock motor, headers only on the motor, Hoosiers, 4piston front brakes, nothing too fancy......Hope that helps!

 

[Tpup]

Put a 2x4 under the brake pedal. That always improves lap times

Roy

 

[GTS Dean]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moundir:
Hey I'm the guy chasing Eldiablo. I dont need to shave 8 seconds off. Only 5-6 at most.

I figure the tires and fixing my suspension is good for 3-4 seconds, and better brakes say Stoptechs are good for another 2-3 seconds, and fixing the motor is another 2 seconds. Add it all up and...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're overestimating the poor state of your stock suspension a bit much. Worn linings don't stop any worse than new ones unless the thin pads make your fluid boil or you're metal to metal. I bet freshening up the bushings will only net .75 to 1 sec.

I put Penskes/Hypercoils on my car and picked up 3.5 secs on a 3.5 mile home track. DOT race tires alone will net you about 2-4 secs, but it depends a lot on your driving abilities. Brakes are a bit of a double-edged sword. The better the car stops, the more you tend to stop it. That hurts lap time because you get to liking the sensation. The key is to use them LESS but have more faith in them being there when you need them. 0.5 to 1.0 secs is about all you'll net in lap time.

I picked up about 10 secs of lap time on the same 3.5mi/13t track with the following mods vs stock suspension, tires and PFC 90/90 pads: EMI Penske 3-ways, PFC 93/90 pads, sticker Hoosiers on wider rims and a RADICAL alignment & corner weight session.

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike H:
If you guys think 2:19 and 2:25 is anywhere fast you need to start driving the track in more than 3rd gear.....or definitely take some driver schools. I ran with Hoosiers, just warming up laps of 2:09 and 2:10 at Watkins Glen. That is a stock motor, headers only on the motor, Hoosiers, 4piston front brakes, nothing too fancy......Hope that helps!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is great..it would make you a champion in Viper Days. I'm not claiming to be the best since I have done 7 events out of which 3 this year in a Viper. I wonder what were your times when you first started on stock tires and 37 deg temp outside.

 

[Vic]

Do you need a pat on the back, Adam?

Here you go-

pat, pat, you're a quick learner!

pat, pat, I'll bet no one else ever came up as fast as you!

pat, pat, If any one is faster than you, you still are king, because you learned faster.

pat, pat

feel good now?

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vic:
Do you need a pat on the back, Adam?

Here you go-

pat, pat, you're a quick learner!

pat, pat, I'll bet no one else ever came up as fast as you!

pat, pat, If any one is faster than you, you still are king, because you learned faster.

pat, pat

feel good now?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thanks...feels great. It would feel better to spank you on the track LOL I'm dedicating 2003 as my learling year. I'm going to take as many classes as I can. I belive that the skill is more important than suspension links...tires...and other things stated above.
So be on the look out for gray 666 Viper.

 

[Vic]

The only tracks I have been to are the local ones in So Cal.

WillowSprings
Buttonwillow
California Speedway

Unless you come out here, I'm not likely to see you, ever.

Now I'm gonna pat myself on the back....

My first three hours of any track experience, I mean my very first time ever on a track of any sort, I turned a 1:38.1 at WillowSprings. I had a great coach with me, PMUM. Only have Corsa exhaust, and smooth tubes.

If I had the time and money to waste, I could probably improve on that. Most of the locals who turn good times on street tires at Willow, (low 30s), only have done so after years and years of experience. Some have less experience, but have other track and or racing exposure. The local heros are track rats, who live for it. Whereas I just "walked in off the street", and turned a 1:38 after only three hours of total track time. So how would I do after 6 hours of seat time? Or years?

I don't have time for it, however. We just sold a ton of work, and I'm doing a lot of it myself to improve the bottom line. And the fruits of my labors may go toward a Ford GT, to park in the garage next to my Viper. Or I may concentrate my efforts on a new house, overlooking the ocean. So what is more important? Lowering my times, or improving my business, which can lead to more/better fun things? Rhetorical question....

Meanwhile, the locals are out at the track, and I will end up on the bottom of the totem pole, by the time I get back to the track. But when I get back, maybe I will drive up in a Ford GT! (God willing)

edit- (and more on topic)
Skill is far more important than power. There are little 2 liter (or whatever) stock Miatas, and S2000s, etc, turning better times than many Viper owners. I've seen that phenomena at more than one track.

The only reason some Viper drivers turn good times at all is only because of the power. Without the power advantage, many so-called fast Viper drivers would look just average.

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

Vic I agree with you 100% I hope that your business goes well. It is better to have too much work than none at all. My busy season just started. Thank God that no racetracks are open in NE or it would be hard to work while your competition (Vette Guy) is getting more seat time LOL. I think that when I'm ready I will buy a race car like Radical. This way I can still drive my Viper on the road.

 

[Moundir]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElDiablo Viper:
Mike...you know that was not my best time and the best that I saw for you on the hot lap timer was 2:27 with my 2:19 LOL. All that you have is a list of buts...but but and a few if, if...so do it once and beat me at something. It is boring to be on top all the time. LOL It is funny that you alredy paid more than new Viper for your Corvette and still can't keep up.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dude my best lap was 2:25 and I did that will all the crap going on with my car

I will beat you this is a promiss, first on the street from a roll or stop, you pick and then on the track

Just wait till my car is fixed punk

 

[Moundir]

Gee Mike H I'm sorry I am not a proffessional racer like you are. I just started this year and only have 4 schools under my belt, half of which rained or snowed like crazy. Thanx for heads up though, I will try using 4th gear next time

I guess you ran low 2 min laps at watkings your first time out too

 

[Mike H]

El Diablo & Moundir,.....just breakin em guys...Just letting you you know that their is lots of room for improvement, and slicks aren't the answer, that is what I was trying to tell you, that a Viper with Hoosiers, with a very well setup easily gets to 2:10's at Watkins. Definitely seat time and suspension are what is needed. Tires do not make up 8 seconds!!
Forget the race slicks, definitely work on more seat time, hit more events where instructors can work with you on brake zones and apexing.....the rest comes in time.
One last note....Skill directly is affected by the prep of the car. If the car has a bad suspension, poor brakes, how can you expect to be fast? If the car can't handle properly in the entry to a corner, pushes out of a corner, you can't get the power down, and lap time suffer. Even a pro driver won't be fast in a poorly setup car. Remember you are doing high speeds in a dangerous sport, make sure the car is in tip top shape before racing.

 

[Moundir]

Thanx for the clarification Mike H. I thought that you were being a **** in your other post, I apolozige for my harsh responce.

I know there is tons of room for improvment and seat time is the only solution

You are right about suspension and car setup, that is why I'm trying to get my car done right so that I can be safe out there and catch ElDiablo

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

Ohhhh now we all friends again

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[Mike 99ACR]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck 98 RT/10:
I agree with the ****. Learn to max the equipment you have then upgrade.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think tires make a difference even for someone that has not been to racing school or alot of track experience.

 

[Mike H]

Tires do make a difference. However, it is no replacement for seat time. Learning how to take a car to the edge on any tire, learning how to be consistant, lap after lap, learning how to be smooth with steering input and learning to be be slow in and fast out of corners is way more important as a young driver than moving up to $ 400+ racing slicks, especially if you have not mastered the above.