Why no electronic stability control, etc?
- Thread starter gofastr
- Start date
VIPER GTSR 91
Enthusiast
ESC only adds more weight and the Viper needs less not more weight. Its a good safety feature for many cars though.
OP
OP
gofastr
Enthusiast
How much weight does it add?
Janni
Enthusiast
I am sitting @ Featherstone Road right now - no more FREC -all moved into main bldgs.
PIcked up our ACR this morning. Let's leave the car what it was meant to be - there are enough cars in the nanified ranks as it is. RIght now - the Viper has no peers.
As it should be.
PIcked up our ACR this morning. Let's leave the car what it was meant to be - there are enough cars in the nanified ranks as it is. RIght now - the Viper has no peers.
As it should be.
Warfang
Enthusiast
Listen. To. The. Woman!
The VAST majority of Viper owners bought it BECAUSE of it's lack of nanny crap. To change that, most of us will look for something else, or keep buying the non-nanny gens. That leaves a lot of new cars on the lot, and the people that you THINK nanny will attract, will buy metrosexual cars like an R8.
FastestBusaAround
Enthusiast
- Joined
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So I wonder why there are so damn many Vipers for sale these days? Could it be that it's too ******** for most owners?
FastZilla
Enthusiast
I think the payments are too ********.... Let's see: Gen4 or a Z06 & a own payment on a house.
Gen3 leases expiring and the balloon is more than the value of the car.
I think it is mainly a factor of dollars - not the vehicle.
Gen3 leases expiring and the balloon is more than the value of the car.
I think it is mainly a factor of dollars - not the vehicle.
Cop Magnet
Enthusiast
Let me see if I have the argument correctly:
Traction control, stability control, etc = more weight (although the option to turn it off would negate any other negatives and would expand the owner base)
Viper = 3450 pounds, yet does not have any of the above
It seems to me the weight of the vehicle has little to do with the presence of traction or stability control.
It also seems to me there are certain individuals who take an overly strong pride in driving a "real mans" car that is not meant for the masses. A real drivers car that was never meant for the average driver, but an exclusive club.
I don't know how you people cannot see that that position equals surefire death for this marquee. But hey, if the ability to someday say you owned one back in the day and were part of this exclusive club means more to you than the survival of the marquee, perhaps some actual lives, and this VERY CLUB...well, have at it!
Traction control, stability control, etc = more weight (although the option to turn it off would negate any other negatives and would expand the owner base)
Viper = 3450 pounds, yet does not have any of the above
It seems to me the weight of the vehicle has little to do with the presence of traction or stability control.
It also seems to me there are certain individuals who take an overly strong pride in driving a "real mans" car that is not meant for the masses. A real drivers car that was never meant for the average driver, but an exclusive club.
I don't know how you people cannot see that that position equals surefire death for this marquee. But hey, if the ability to someday say you owned one back in the day and were part of this exclusive club means more to you than the survival of the marquee, perhaps some actual lives, and this VERY CLUB...well, have at it!
2000_Black_RT10
Enthusiast
Sorry.. Featherstone.. refers to the road that the Viper engineering and design group facility resided on back then, also known as FREC (Featherstone Road Engineering Complex), then it changed to PVO, then SRT, then as Janni mentions, the group was moved across I-75 to the CTC (Chrysler Technology Center).
ViperGeorge
Enthusiast
Totally agree. With an on/off switch you can have your cake and eat it to. As to the weight addition, can't be much. You need some wheel speed sensors (oh wait, it has those already because of ABS), yaw and some other sensors, then you need a computer capable of activating the ABS by wheel and tuning engine power with an electronic throttle. Seems like the Viper has all of this so the weight addition may be only the software. How much do bits actually weigh?
Why anyone disagrees with this is beyond me. People would not buy the 600 HP car because it has some things like traction control that you might decide to use. Oh please, please protect me from myself, I might turn on the traction control by accident and then what would people think of me? I might be less of a man's man.
Get a grip.
2000_Black_RT10
Enthusiast
The Viper can be considered safer than many other cars on the road in different aspects as it is, from braking distances to impact zones. I'd predict what sells a supercar.. Exterior Beauty #1, Performance #2, Handling #3, Interior #4, Fit & Finish #5, Electronic Technology #6, Carry golf clubs #7, Safety #8, Durability #9, Serviceability #10, Gas Mileage #11..
I do agree on one point, weight has little to do with being a disadvantage having traction or stability control.
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Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Riiiiiiiight. Like building a 488 cid Viper with no door handles, no windows, no top, no A/C. That was 1992 and none of that crap made a bit of difference. And now we are going to have a 20th anniversary Viper. Hopefully it will be stripped bare bones.
If you want a surfire death to this marquee make it just like every other marquee and put all that nanny crap on it.
ViperGeorge
Enthusiast
How many of you still only watch black and white TV? or read by candle light? or communicate using smoke signals? Give me a break, everyone uses modern technology. We don't sit here and say I'm not going to watch my flat screen HD TV because that's not the way we did it in the old days. Why are we even using computers to communicate, why don't we just phone each other? Better yet let's use one of those old party lines so we could speak to each other at the same time. Please Mr. Edison don't invent the light bulb, we'd rather sit in the dark. President Kennedy we don't need to go to the moon let's just sit here and wonder what it would be like. Carroll Shelby you don't need a heart transplant, just kick the bucket like they used to do in the old days.
Technology marches on and if we don't accept it we will continue to live in the past.
Technology marches on and if we don't accept it we will continue to live in the past.
Warfang
Enthusiast
grunt grunt...
What a joke. No sense of strategy or tactics here. Instead of fighting on our terms and what makes us strong, these NFNs (Ninnies for Nannies) want to scrap all that and fight the competitors on their terms. Just put the Viper back in the races and kill everybody like they once did. The Ring was a start, but insignificant compared to threepeat at LeMans.
Question for the NFNs... would you prefer the longevity of the Viper line, or have your nannies installed in them from the factory? hmmmmm?
Longevity of the Viper means to fight the nannies with everything in the arsenal. Every win in the races, the drivers states, "can you believe these pansies couldn't beat me with nannies?" Highlight the dangers of not understanding vehicle dynamics... insist on driving courses before buying a Viper. PSAs on the DANGERS on relying on nannies. Heck, demand a certificate from a high performance driving school before a purchase. Make it the scariest damn car in the world to own without some driving chops... MORE so than now. Be the Olympic heavy weight lifter that can also beat the sprinters and marathoners.. not to mention a part time ninja on the side.
The metrosexuals (I suspect the men NFNs proudly carry that label) will never understand. Easier to paddle shift with a limp wrist.
2000_Black_RT10
Enthusiast
bit too deep..
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eucharistos
Enthusiast
Warfang
Enthusiast
i spoke on a party line once......back in the day
So... let me get this straight: You go to an opera and demand they use autotune... human voice is sooo caveman. You go to the Guggenheim and demand the paintings be done on epaper... canvas is soooo 18th century. You go to a restaurant and demand soylent green... because food is sooo low tech. You go to your bathroom and you demand the Three Seashells®... because you watched movies in the 90's.
The Viper was designed as a THROWBACK car... MINIMALIST. AS LOW TECH AS IT CAN BE...LEGALLY. The Gen1 was not designed the way it was because that was the only technology available to Dodge engineers at the time. How dumb do you think they were? So with the Gen 1 and Gen 2... the Viper became a legend without any nanny. Daimler bought it and shut down the racing efforts, and until the RIng run... Viper's clout lessened.
Winning races is the ONLY key to Viper's longevity. Nannies are for ninnies.
eucharistos
Enthusiast
wf
my "back in the day" comment was a ref to how old i am
and the experience (even then they were hard to find), not that old tech is inferior and nanny tech is superior (i guess i'm funnier in my head than on paper)nanny tech has its place in some cars, but imho not in a viper, if dodge wants a nanny tech super car make it new, maybe named gecko
as i've said before,
old isn't better
new isn't better
better is better
good response btw
SilveRT8
Enthusiast
Last weeek our local Viper club had an exotic car outing with many Lambo,Ferrari, Aston, Z8...
A guy had the rare 604hp Carrera GT, as we got on the highway he nailed it and immediatly lost it doing a full 360 ending sideways inches from the guardrails with a 53ft van stopping just in time. A blown fuse had just taken all his nannys away.
Having no stability/traction control on my Viper makes me respect the car at all time
A guy had the rare 604hp Carrera GT, as we got on the highway he nailed it and immediatly lost it doing a full 360 ending sideways inches from the guardrails with a 53ft van stopping just in time. A blown fuse had just taken all his nannys away.
Having no stability/traction control on my Viper makes me respect the car at all time
Warfang
Enthusiast
actually... the response was for mr. candlelightwf
my "back in the day" comment was a ref to how old i am
nanny tech has its place in some cars, but imho not in a viper, if dodge wants a nanny tech super car make it new, maybe named gecko
as i've said before,
old isn't better
new isn't better
better is better
good response btw
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
You don't "get" it either. It's about the driving experience which for most of us means man controling the machine, not the other way around.
Example: Fuel injection or carburated have zero affect on the driver's ability to control the machine. Please don't tell me you don't see the difference between engine performance and traction control or ABS.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Driving a sports car is supposed to be a sport. And sports are supposed to be an activity where one enjoys the pursuit of practice and tuning their skill so they can get better at their sport.
I suppose for you nanny types you'd love to be equipped with a bionic arm so you could effortlessly throw a football 90 yards on a dime or hit a tennis ball 170mph. But for purists that bionic arm takes away the thrill and reward from working at becoming better. And no matter how good that bionic arm would be, I'd still be more impressed with John Elway's throwing ability.
I suppose for you nanny types you'd love to be equipped with a bionic arm so you could effortlessly throw a football 90 yards on a dime or hit a tennis ball 170mph. But for purists that bionic arm takes away the thrill and reward from working at becoming better. And no matter how good that bionic arm would be, I'd still be more impressed with John Elway's throwing ability.
OP
OP
gofastr
Enthusiast
So when are you removing the power steering and power brakes from your Viper?
dave6666
Enthusiast
ViperGeorge
Enthusiast
Look none of you will convince me that staying in the past is a good idea. I won't buy a Gen 1/2 ever again because as Eucharistos said "better is better", and they're not. I've been there and done that. That doesn't mean that I can't admire their looks (like I might a fine painting) or remember the excitement that I had when I first got my RT. But drive better, no they don't. Technology improvements, including aero on the ACR, have made the newer cars better and easier to drive. I guess that makes them less sporty.
I guess some feel the Viper should never have evolved and should still drive like a Gen 1 or 2. The SRT has already taken the "sport" out of driving if you they correct. The new cars are much easier to drive than a Gen 2 and they are less likely to bite you. If most people prefer the driving experience of the older Vipers and really wanted to feel that the man controls the machine, then they wouldn't be adding suspension components, aero, or other performance handling components like tires. Even on the Gen 3 people don't leave the Run Craps on just so the car is scarier (sportier) to drive in the cold or rain.
I've never said that any of you should be forced to drive with your nanny controls turned on. You should have the option of having them on or fully off but many of you don't want anyone else to have the option. Some of you don't feel that way. It can't be about weight, the additional weight would be insignificant on a 600 HP car and I doubt most of us are good enough drivers to notice it in any event.
The nanny controls might encourage new ownership and might be a good way for people to gradually improve their skill so that they could safely drive the Viper without them. Most of us would not let someone other than a Viper owner drive our cars because we're afraid they'll wreck them. What encourages someone to buy a Viper if they keep hearing that they are scary? The car mags keep bashing it as compared to the Vette or GTR even though a very good driver in a Viper will kick their a$$.
I doubt anyone would want the nannies on the track unless its raining or something. I used to drive my 01 Camaro SS on the track and would immediately turn off the nannies. It was faster this way. But on the road in the rain or cold, I left them on. Why not? I drive my wife and kids in these cars. Why should I subject them to anymore risk than necessary? I respect the Viper, it is a very powerful car and if you don't give it your full attention all the time it can hurt you. But I do love it.
In virtually every area of life technology has made improvements whether its in the quality of paint an artist might use to paint the next great masterpiece, medical technology like robotic surgeons' tools, or even in the tools that athletes use to be better at their sport (shoes, rackets, whatever). Everything has changed. So I say let the Viper evolve. If that includes some low weight nannies like traction control or stability control, so be it. I don't hear too many folks saying lets get rid of ABS or some of the other technologies that have found their way onto the Viper.
One last thing, I agree wholeheartedly with Warfang let's go racing again. That is a sure fire way to get the Viper more exposure. However, we need to recognize that we've got a lot of catching up to do. The Corvette, Aston Martin, and Ferrari have years more development now.
Well that's all I will say about this topic so have fun and drive safely.
I guess some feel the Viper should never have evolved and should still drive like a Gen 1 or 2. The SRT has already taken the "sport" out of driving if you they correct. The new cars are much easier to drive than a Gen 2 and they are less likely to bite you. If most people prefer the driving experience of the older Vipers and really wanted to feel that the man controls the machine, then they wouldn't be adding suspension components, aero, or other performance handling components like tires. Even on the Gen 3 people don't leave the Run Craps on just so the car is scarier (sportier) to drive in the cold or rain.
I've never said that any of you should be forced to drive with your nanny controls turned on. You should have the option of having them on or fully off but many of you don't want anyone else to have the option. Some of you don't feel that way. It can't be about weight, the additional weight would be insignificant on a 600 HP car and I doubt most of us are good enough drivers to notice it in any event.
The nanny controls might encourage new ownership and might be a good way for people to gradually improve their skill so that they could safely drive the Viper without them. Most of us would not let someone other than a Viper owner drive our cars because we're afraid they'll wreck them. What encourages someone to buy a Viper if they keep hearing that they are scary? The car mags keep bashing it as compared to the Vette or GTR even though a very good driver in a Viper will kick their a$$.
I doubt anyone would want the nannies on the track unless its raining or something. I used to drive my 01 Camaro SS on the track and would immediately turn off the nannies. It was faster this way. But on the road in the rain or cold, I left them on. Why not? I drive my wife and kids in these cars. Why should I subject them to anymore risk than necessary? I respect the Viper, it is a very powerful car and if you don't give it your full attention all the time it can hurt you. But I do love it.
In virtually every area of life technology has made improvements whether its in the quality of paint an artist might use to paint the next great masterpiece, medical technology like robotic surgeons' tools, or even in the tools that athletes use to be better at their sport (shoes, rackets, whatever). Everything has changed. So I say let the Viper evolve. If that includes some low weight nannies like traction control or stability control, so be it. I don't hear too many folks saying lets get rid of ABS or some of the other technologies that have found their way onto the Viper.
One last thing, I agree wholeheartedly with Warfang let's go racing again. That is a sure fire way to get the Viper more exposure. However, we need to recognize that we've got a lot of catching up to do. The Corvette, Aston Martin, and Ferrari have years more development now.
Well that's all I will say about this topic so have fun and drive safely.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
When Dodge designs manual systems to replace them.
Those systems are hydraulic anyway. You don't loose the feel that you do with electronics.
GTS Dean
Enthusiast
You can scream and stomp and pound fists demanding all the electric gizmos invented by man on your new Viper and I will NEVER, EVER agree with you.Warfang
Enthusiast
That goes with the VAST majority of Viper owners...but as Americans we'll defend his right to have an opinion about it... as wrong as it is.
In Iran, they would have already beheaded him.
ssnaked
Viper Owner
Well said GBATEJAN. However, if we want Viper to maintain its racing heritage Viper owners will have make themselves heard by Chyrsler. Racing is not on Chrysler's agenda and may soon be a thing of the past for any Chyrsler related product.
