Beat a Plymouth Road Runner-390HP

[viperct2001]

It was no match. I wasn't even trying as hard as I could. I kept it in 5th gear when we first starting going at it. I should have downshifted to 3rd or 4th to pull away faster, but figured I'd give him a fighting chance.

Before the race first started, my girlfriend gave me the "go ahead" since she heard the blue Road Runner's engine screaming as I approached him from behind. I pass him and as I pull dramatically away, my girfriend says "C'mon buddy. Are you even trying?" LOL!

We raced for about 5 miles. most of the time we was pretty far back. At least 50 car lengths.

I got stuck in traffic and then got off my exit, and he followed me off. He said "Dam-, what a car! Woo!" as he nods his head in disbelief. I ask him how much HP his Road Runner puts out and he says 390HP. From the web I see it listed as 440 6V/390hp@4700

We talk for a bit at the light on the ramp and I turn left.

I pull into a gas station and he pulls in to talk some more.

He says "Dam-, I've never been beaten so bad."

I say "Well, you did alright keeping me in sight at least."

"Yeah, but I'm maxed out at 130mph."

I say "Yeah, well I actually kept it under 140mph. I had my girlfriend in the car."

He was pretty cool about taking a beating at the hands of a Viper. Even with the loss, I think he enjoyed the experience.

Yet another happy "Losing to a Viper" customer!

 

[Tomer]

I would have no issue losing to any Mopar...

Something else, well....

Tomer

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark O:
While I don't want to get into an arguement with a fellow Mopar nut, 11.0 for a bone stock maxwedge in my opinion is stretching just a tad.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


yeah I'm a young moparite and I know that's BS

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maxwedge:
maxwerdge were factory superstock cars...featuring 12.5:1 CR Dual carbs and a aluminum front end and all the suspention tricks that Mopar engineers could throw at them. Ask around, the old Iron might suprise you..

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
dude, those weren't times for STOCK street cars, Mark knows his stuff, I'm sure he'll post pics to prove it.

11's would have taken slicks/skinnies weight reduction (acid dip?) and a bit more, and therfore not stock

 

[MichaelP]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maxwedge:
A stock Maxwedge(for whom I am named) does 11.00 stock..they only produced maxwedges for 3 years 1962-1964..and they were built by the Chrysler and could be bought by anyone....
Damion<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


ahhhhhhhhhhh yea right.

 

[00prowler]

11 seconds or not, the roads around my house are more than a 1/4 mile long!!! Beleive me, I will get by any antiqe so called muscle car!!! We wont get into making a few turns or some hard braking or any other real world situation that may occur. Think I would leave my A/C on as well!!!AL...00PROWLER...(96GTS)

 

[Tomer]

Lets go easy on the antique stuff!!! You may get surprised some day! [alas, sold my 73 Cuda 340 4-speed]...

On the other hand, can we get maxwedge to post some time slips, then all the smack talk'in will be a mute point!

Tomer

 

[MadMaxx]

As a previous 440+6, I can say when those back barrels kick in, you better hold the heck on!

MadMaxx

 

[MichaelP]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tomer:
Lets go easy on the antique stuff!!! You may get surprised some day! [alas, sold my 73 Cuda 340 4-speed]...

On the other hand, can we get maxwedge to post some time slips, then all the smack talk'in will be a mute point!

Tomer

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Question is can we get him to post ever again.

 

[Matt M PA]

As many of you know, I have had numerous "muscle Mopars", including a 440-6 Superbird. While the older Mopars are awesome, they just simply can't keep up with modern performance cars. I had the 6 barrels set up coorectly, and my Viper would jsut walk all over that Superbird...no contest. And, "stock" 11's in a Max Wedge...that's news to me.

 

[MichaelP]

Yes now you are saying Super Stock before you said A stock Maxwedge(for whom I am named) does 11.00 stock..

2 totally different things.

We are saying you are wrong a stock Maxwedge can NOT do an 11 sec 1/4 mile.

 

[RC Viper]

Although I love the late 60's and early 70's Mopars, I have to say that my '97 GTS will leave them in the dust in both the quarter mile and road courses. My '69 Superbee Hemi is not stock (Keith Black pistons/headers etc.) and is putting out well over 500 horsepower at the crank. Problem is getting all of that horsepower to the ground for 1/4 mile times and we won't even talk about road courses (as in turning the car!). Same thing with the 440 Six Barrel Superbird. From my perspective the cars in in different classes. I get as much pleasure and attention driving down the road in my Vitamin C Orange bird as my Viper, but a race car it's not.

I recently had the opportunity to take the Superbird out on the track at Virginia International Raceway for a parade lap. It was entered in the Gold Cup Historics car show. The car did better than I expected considering it is a 20 foot long land yacht, but would not keep up with the GTS. There is a picture of the car on VIR's web site under the Gold Cup Historics pictures at virclub.com.

 

[Matt M PA]

It's true that the Daytonas ans Superbirds were at the tops of their fields when they were outlawed..but they were far from stock production vehicles. They were heavily modified racecars. As far as the '68 Hurst Darts and Barracudas; at the time they were not even street legal. It's like comparing a Oreca Viper to a street GTS.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

super stock cars and stock cars are totally different.

if you want that to be your point change your name to SSmaxwedge

geex it should be compared to the GTS-R's then if it's built in-house and all that crap. Price..not a factor.

 

[00prowler]

Hey Max Wedgie, Get with it , Its the 21st century. The 60s so called muscle car era is DEAD!!! Been there, done that,Thank GOD Its over!!! Hail Viper!!!!!!!!!!...AL...00PROWLER...

 

[Shakin Snake]

They huff and puff and strut their stuff, but the Dinosaurs need to be schooled once in a while to help keep them in reality check.

 

[MadMaxx]

That was a special order hemi barracuda (old valient based ones). I've got good pics if you want to see

Definetly NOT a every day street car, they were shipped w/o motor and trans to hurst I think for the new cross-ram hemi and trans. They only made a few.

MadMaxx

 

[joe117]

In 1962-1964 the street cars would probably be running 670-15 tires and the slicks that fit in the wells would be small too. I don't think there were many tub mods back then. Seems like I remember Don Garlets breaking into the 7s in a top fuel rail about 1966 or so.
Lot's of folks seem to make legends out of the old super stock cars of that era. I don't think any of them, the way they really were, could touch a Viper.
How much would that gigantic old Superbird weigh anyway?

 

[Snakester]

I like classic American hot rods, and I've owned my share of them.
But I do grow tired when I read about people comparing rare, race-prepped cars to current factory stock cars.

The common example is with the Corvette ZL-1, which is claimed to do a 10 second 1/4 mile, stock. But in reality the tested ones of the day that were actually stock (no headers, slicks, pulled mufflers, etc) ran low 13s (the one of two built that was tested).

Certainly with no smog restrictions, airbags, or other amenities that are common in even todays Hondas, a hot rod can be modded to be amazingly fast (in a straight line) AFTER it's been converted into a drag car.

It's just that there is almost NO CHANCE that we will EVER see a ZL-1 with slicks, race gas, and an uncorked exhaust on the street. EVER. So those enthusiast's numbers are pointless and useless.

It is fairly unlikely that we will see a classic hot rod driving on the streets at all, and most of those cars on the street are street legal, which means that most likely mostly stock, and are not as fast as the legendary stories have portrayed their factory racecar cousin cars, which are now all most likely in some vault-garage being polished with a rich car collector's buffing diaper.

Whenever there are real, modern, comparitive tests made of stock 60's and 70's hot rods, the results are less like the tall-tale myths that we regularly hear, and more like this article:
http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/collector_cars/1997/8/showdown_muscle_car s/index2.phtml

 

[joe117]

So what's with the 60's maxwedge engine that would make it put out so much power? I could see perhaps 500 hp from a 60s 440 that would be just barely streetable, given porting, 12.5 compression, a decent cam, good exhaust and good carbs. I think the 60's technology 500 hp engine would not be very streetable at all.
Why would the maxwedge, in superstock tune, be so much more powerful than the superstock 427 Ford or the 396/427 Chevy of that era? Perhaps there might be some extra from the Mopar for some reason but not a big difference. Did I read Maxwedge right when he said that 390 hp was "about 1000 short"? Where would the maxwedge get 3 hp/cubic inch? Nobody got nearly that from any NA engine in those days. That kind of power would be from a fuel dragster of the period.

 

[pauls]

Mopar muscle was the king of the 60s. As one who lived then and drove them to the drive in and in NHRA here is a little history.

Stock Max Wedge 60s era=low 13s maybe high twelves on slicks. 14s the 7.25x14 street tires. Check the 63 NHRA Nationals results. Ramchargers in a race prepared MW=high 11s.

Today AS/A NHRA index 11.40 most prepared cars run 10.40s. And you don't drive those on the street. In todays standards and MAX Wedge head, cross ram B Body would be a mid 11 street car with sticky DOTs.
PS The fastest magazine test of a 440 6Pak Road Runner was the one Ronnie Sox drove in 1970. I believe Super Stock Magazine, it went 12.9 on street tires. Fast "really stock 6 paks" run in the Muscle Car Shoot Outs today. Bob Karikashian 12.teens on ral street tires.
They are great cars, but not match for any aspect of current Viper performance. But if you grew up in that era they are very special cars and very valuable.

 

[viperct2001]

The race wasn't from a standstill. I was on a highway and it started from about 65mph, so maybe the Viper's 450hp is more dramatic at higher speeds than a 1/4mile stopped start.

I had my top down and could clearly hear his engine revving as he saw my approach from behind. He definitely wanted to go mano-a-mano or mopar-a-mopar!

I pulled on him pretty good the WHOLE time even without downshifting at the start of the race. I pulled on him even BEFORE I hit the Road Runner's maximum 130mph limit. (obviously I will pull on him once I go over 130mph - which I did for a short bit)

Not trying to denigrate a fellow Mopar engine, but it didn't seem that his car was any match. Just trying to determine whether this is a race to be proud of - a big notch on my belt or a small one.

He said his Road Runner was mostly stock - just the exhaust was modified. He said he got it for a steal price of $10,000. Don't know the year. He said something about it being a 3-speed? Maybe it's an automatic?

And I think I recall him saying he put his GTi in his girlfriend's car and that her car can beat his Road Runner. (not sure his g-friend's car make) And I'm not sure if he meant he took it out of the Road Runner and put it in his girlfriend's car. Though I don't think the Road Runner has a GTi.

what is a GTi anyway? I think it's a Mopar engine of some type. Specs, anyone?

 

[joe117]

Maxwedge, you say
"Different cam/pistons/heads are all that is allowed."
Don't you think that kind of proves the argument against your position, and remember gentlemen, we are only arguing against his position. If you change the heads, cam and pistons, what's left. Those are the the places where the power comes from. These are the places where the modern flow testing and computer modeling will give the power over the crude 60s components.
As for the original topic, the race. I'd say that the 390hp Mopar had just about 390hp. That's probably all they ever had off the showroom floor.
Again, I ask, what would make the superstock 440 of that era give much more power than the superstock 427 Fords or 396/427 Chevy of the same era? They may have dominated the racing but seriously, how much more did they have over their competition?
Also, wasn't the hemi that all the fuel dragsters used the one that came out in the 50s?

 

[joe117]

Maxwedge,
Let's see if we can get this straight. Please, so we know just what you are saying. Take these one at a time.
1. What do you think the RWHP was on an off the showroom floor 60's 440 superstock? Pick a year/body.
2. What ET and MPH would you expect from the above car as sold?
3. The car that raced the Viper in this topic was a 440/390. How much RWHP do you think he was supposed to have.
4. Please describe the, off the showroom floor, car that would do 11.0 in the 60's. The body, rear suspension, basic engine parameters, the tires, the weight as raced.

 

[Dante'00ACR]

alright guys,
here's my take on this. Some of you are down-playing the muscle of yesteryear as no competition to our Viper's of current times. My friend's show stock '69 440-6BBL road runner with slicks runs 11.7/114 mph, and has beaten 4 zo6's at the drag strip when he takes it out once in a blue moon. The mph isn't quite as high as our 488's but with a $200 o/d 4-speed his top-end would increase by 30-40 mph (not 1/4). It takes absolutely nothing to make a big-block mopar fast, and now you can build a small block that's the same size as the B/RB big-blocks. Check out (www.indyheads.com) to see big-blocks over 600 cu. inch on pump gas. The viper's power to cubic inch is actually worse than the stock 426 Hemi, so how much farther have we really come in 30 years? Handling, stopping...I agree all the way, but don't discount viper's big brother's in any straight line. There was an article some time back on a '98 or so GTS going head to head with a '63 max wedge Dodge and the '63 cut down the Viper by 1/2 second every run. You would be surprised at how much faster (1/4 and top speed), the old Mopar's would be with even the same tranny ratio's of an overdrive or even a 6-speed. And that's a much more even comparison but trust me, the old 440's and Hemi's are very stout and there's less difference than some of you think. Long rods make a sweet flat torque range whether its in a Viper or a 440, but that road runner you spanked would have done much better if he would have had a similar tranny and higher rear gear ratio. Rear-wheel hp is still higher on the snake stock vs stock...but it takes much less than most of you think to make those old sucker's fassst!
peace,

Dante

 

[Snakester]

Guys,

There are many ways to make a car that runs faster than a Viper in a straight line. Supercharged Mustangs, turbo Civics, and raced out hot rods are just three methods.

But while these cars are both cheaper and faster in a straight line than a Viper, they are not balanced performance cars, and they are by no means stock.

My friend/mechanic has a couple nice Barracudas, including a gorgeous '65 fastback that he has fixed up. It is brutally fast, and is the only car that I've driven where I chirped the tires letting OFF of the throttle because of the high compression engine.

But compared to a modern car it drives like a truck. It's raw, has a stiff clutch, shudders and rattles, and has a exhaust resonance that makes it hard to drive on the freeway for any length time without getting a headache. And it's not nearly as fast as the Viper.

Now he could easily build up the motor and drivetrain to make it quicker in the 1/4 mile than my Viper. But then it would be even LESS streetable than it is right now.

That doesn't make the 'Cuda any less of a great looking, unique hot rod. But it does point to some major advances in tire, suspension, safety, comfort, and engine management technologies over the past 35+ years that have provided a car like the Viper with balanced performance that was unattainable at any price back then.

-Dean.

 

[toddt]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dante'00ACR:
My friend's show stock '69 440-6BBL road runner with slicks runs 11.7/114 mph, and has beaten 4 zo6's at the drag strip when he takes it out once in a blue moon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sorry, I do not believe this car is stock, let alone showroom stock.

N o w a y.

 

[00prowler]

Hey Guys, Performance aside, a 60 whatever maxwedge looks like a **** with 4 wheels on it, performs about the same. Stand behind it smells about the same!!! Have not seen a 60s so called muscle car not smell like raw fuel when idling yet!!!...AL...00PROWLER

 

[ZX12]

Although today's Mustang Cobra will destroy my humble 65 ragtop, I still respect the old car for what it is, and what it represented in its heyday. In their era, they performed well for a reasonable amount of money, and I believe they paved the way for the development of today's performance cars. It's all part of the 'evolution' of hot rodding. I'm grateful to those who have kept the hot rod spirit alive and well since the glory days of the 60s.

I hear people making fun of the classic hot rods, but I always defend them by bringing up another hot rod, the P-51 Mustang. Sure, it doesn't compare to the performance of modern fighter jets, but look at what it accomplished for the Allies in WWII. Their performance was cutting-edge for that time period. I respect machines that were at the 'top of their game' at the time of development. If only I could own a Boss 429, a Hemi Cuda, a 440 GTX, a 454 Chevelle, an AC Cobra...dream on...

 

[MichaelP]

I am going to FVCKING kill myself.

I haven't hear so much double talk and back peddling, since I watched a congressional episode on C-Span.