Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

[Russ M]

As promised I spent the better part of a day dynoing my Viper yesterday. The purpose was to build a cold air kit/box that actually made power instead of unjustified claims. Many will probably be upset with me and say that their box/lids/etc really does make power but facts are facts and I am not one to sell/buy something based on wishful thinking.

Tested items included just about every type of cold air setup a Viper can hold. Pipes used were 2.5/2.75/3.00 lengths were varied multiple times, even high speed 90mph fans were used to make sure the air going to the filers would be cold as in real world driving.

Enough with the small talk and get to the results, the worst power made was with a 2.5inch/ 30inch 412rwhp and 460lb's torque. The best power was made with a 3inch/10inch long 424rwhp and 470lb's torque. The sad part is that the factory box with filters and smooth tubes made 433rwhp and 482lb's torque. Dodge got it right, whoever designed the Viper intake knew exactly what they were doing on pipe length and filter placement.

My testing even included the aid of some people that are experts at making these types of products in the import industry. And they accomplish some amazing results like 20rwhp out of 2.0 litter motors with just cold air kits. All of them were very shocked that the Viper was being uncooperative, many were expecting big power gains from at least one of the setups.

So enjoy knowing that your factory airbox makes more power than all the aftermarket has to offer and spend your money elsewhere.

 

[RedGTS]

You didn't happen to try a modded factory airbox with 3" outlets did you?

 

[proracer1]

Was your factory airbox modified and did you use factory filter or KN

 

[Vipermed 97.01]

I am assuming your "complete testing" was for naturally aspirated cars only.As this would be a bold statement to be true for the supercharged cars.Also to say that they did it right in the design of the Gen1 and Gen2 intake is far from the truth,on the contrary on the naturally aspirated gen1 and gen2 viper the factory manifold is one of the weakest links with the length of the runners being far to long

 

[jrkermode]

Excellent Russ. It's always nice to deal in facts not theories.

 

[Russ M]

Stock box was used with K&N's and smooth tubes, a type of factory setup was tested with 3" tubes and filters at the end of them.

Vipermad,

I said nothing about the intake manifold, my testing is strictly for pre manifold. And my testing was limited to a gen 2 viper, if anyone wants to test a gen 1 I will be more than happy to do the same tests to see if there is any benefit, but not on my dime. I did not do any testing on a supercharged Viper, so I cant comment on what if.

I spent more time on the dyno yesterday than majority of the so called Viper tuners do with their products and I have absolutely nothing to sell. I just did it to see for my self since very few "Viper tuners" are willing to back up their products with facts.

If anyone that sells a product feels I am wrong then by all means please send me a box and I will dyno before and after, and post results for everyone to see. And my tests wont consist of 1 dyno pull before and after, I will make damn sure the gains are real or fake. If your product does make power over smooth tubes and k&n's I will be the first to buy one and promote it here and on every viper forum. Anyone up for a challenge???

 

[GTS-R 001]

RUSS,

Let me explain to you how the VIPAIR™ works....

First the NACA duct at the front of the viper is 1.75 inches tall by 10 inches wide ..therefore 17.5 square inches of airflow ( cold ) outside air temp

The stock airbox opening in 2 inches tall by 16.5 inches wide therefore 33 square inch opening.

The stock airbox therefore ***** in 17.5 sq inches of cold(outside) air and 15.5 sq inches of air at engine bay temperature. therefore 47% of the air is "hot" and 53% of the air is cold.

Therefore if the ouside temp is 72 degrees and the underhood temp of your viper is 100 degrees ( a very plausible situation ) then the combined airflow temp in your stock viper would be approx 85 degrees. With the VIPAIR™ the intake charge will remain at 72 degrees as the VIPAIR prevents the hot underhood air from entering the intake by pulling cold air from in front of the rad and channeling the cold air directly into the part of the stock airbox that would normally **** in hot underhood air.

A 10 degree drop in temperature usually produces an increase in horsepower of 10 hp (fact, denser "colder" and more fuel added by the pcm for the denser air equals more power ) therefore when the viper owner adds a VIPAIR™ duct to his viper and changes the configuration of the intake charge to 100% cold(outside) temp air then you get a horsepower increase ( not magic , not pixie dust, just simple physics and fact ) dyno proven with the VIPAIR™

 

[Russ M]

RUSS,

Let me explain to you how the VIPAIR™ works....

First the NACA duct at the front of the viper is 1.75 inches tall by 10 inches wide ..therefore 17.5 square inches of airflow ( cold ) outside air temp

The stock airbox opening in 2 inches tall by 16.5 inches wide therefore 33 square inch opening.

The stock airbox therefore ***** in 17.5 sq inches of cold(outside) air and 15.5 sq inches of air at engine bay temperature. therefore 47% of the air is "hot" and 53% of the air is cold.

Therefore if the ouside temp is 72 degrees and the underhood temp of your viper is 100 degrees ( a very plausible situation ) then the combined airflow temp in your stock viper would be approx 85 degrees. With the VIPAIR™ the intake charge will remain at 72 degrees as the VIPAIR replaces the hot underhood air by pulling cold air from in front of the rad and by not allowing the hot underhood air into the stock airbox.

A 10 degree drop in temperature usually produces an increase in horsepower of 10 hp (fact, denser "colder" and more fuel added by the pcm for the denser air equals more power ) therefore when the viper owner adds a VIPAIR™ duct to his viper and changes the configuration of the intake charge to 100% cold(outside) temp air then you get a horsepower increase ( not magic , not pixie dust, just simple physics and fact ) dyno proven with the VIPAIR™

Ok let me explain to you how your claims are unjustified.

I ran the car with a stock box hood proped open in the front with a high volume 90mph fan blowing into the factory box from 2 feet away. Unless your Vipair has a turbo charger attached to it, it will NOT allow more air than this. I also ran the car with the hood closed and same power results.

So go on tell me how the Vipair can work mirracles, proven where ??? Dyno results??? How many cars? Please do tell.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Russ,

To properly test a cold air product you should simulate actual real world conditions ...HOOD DOWN not propped open with a fan bowing into the intake. Neither you or I drive around like this. Are you disputing that colder air does not produce more power? I did not post my test of the VIPAIR™ one of our customers did and he got 12 rwhp more, are you saying that he is less competent at dynoing his car than you are?

 

[Russ M]

Russ,

To properly test a cold air product you should simulate actual real world conditions ...HOOD DOWN not propped open with a fan bowing into the intake. Neither you or I drive around like this.

I totaly agree, but you did not answer my question. How will the Vipair out flow a fan with the hood propped open? And since there was no difference in numbers between that and the hood closed, you get the idea.


PS. I forgot to mention that unless you test a Viper fairly with equal amount of cool down time between runs you can skew the numbers considerably. On one pull we lost track of time and waited way too long and the numbers jumped up 12hp on a cold engine.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Russ,

Maybe the dyno shop was heat soaked? The viper aluminum engine radiates alot of heat, this may be the cause.

 

[Russ M]

Russ,

Maybe the dyno shop was heat soaked? The viper aluminum engine radiates alot of heat, this may be the cause.

Weather was corrected for on every set of pulls. Maybe the aftermarket products made do nothing or loose power rather than make it?

 

[GTS-R 001]

Russ,
How about you order a VIPAIR™, see if you like it, if not return it for a full refund. I have had feedback from some VIPAIR™ owners that they really feel the difference on the road, and you being from socal heat is probably an issue for you.

 

[GTSnake]

I ran the dyno test with the Vipair deflector about a month ago. See my post. I made 2 runs with and 2 runs without. It was pretty consistently adding around 10hp with the deflector. Although my sample was only 2 maybe over time it may level off I don't know. But my results showed an improvement over the stock set up. I also made all the runs with the hood closed to similate driving conditions.

I'm not affiliated with Elite motorsports in anyway and have nothing to gain other than HP. I was just reporting what I experienced.

But I am waiting on my plastic replacement Steve

 

[GTS-R 001]

Plastic is on the way early next week, but be careful the new design has double the cold airflow so be light on the pedal for a while till you get used to all the extra power!

 

[Alternative]

Thanks for the info Russ. I'll keep my stock airbox for now.

 

[FE 065]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Attaboy Russ. Thanks for all the work towards factoid data. I have to agree that having the hood open and a 90mph fan blowing into the full width of the OEM airbox opening has to be a valid comparo to ANY other device tested 'on the dyno' that also directs air toward that same OEM airbox opening. Extra air is extra air . In both cases the cars are using the full width of the airbox to ingest air. On the road...Vipermed may have something that works, but sitting on the dyno where's the advantage? Vipermed seems to take any counter discussion personally. Maybe he's used to the rich FL country club posers who snap up flashy stuff *****-nilly and he can't take the scrutiny that EVERY other vendor gets here. It's obvious we'd all buy the Vipair if the data was IN and consistent. So far I've seen one posted dyno result from the Vipair (positive), no posted 'I really feel the difference on the road' info , and no posted independent drag testing of the unit. It's been a month or more... Vendors attend the drags regularly hawking their stuff. If you really want to sell those Vipairs, head for the next heavily Viper attended drags and let the racers do the 2 minute Vipair bolt on for back to back comparisons. Note: The intake runners may be long,but consider that a DC guy just told me last week that GenIIIs run lean in the front cylinders because the runners are too short and the f/a mix is being partially sucked out of the forward runners. That's no good either.

 

[monnieh]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

I tell you, Steve has impressed me with his customer service.

Excellent work Steve on your product and with your willingness to send out the plastic Vipair replacements! I am looking forward to getting mine as I think it looks better then the metal one I have now.

Now just move here in Dallas and not Cali! California Uber Alles!

 

[ViperJoe]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Are the plastic Vipair pieces available "plain" with no logo or markings?

 

[Dave Adkins]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

<nerdmode = ON>
I'd like to have a chat with the DC engineer who thinks intake runner length is responsible for lean combustion on the forward cylinders. I bet that's a misquote. The DC folks are a lot sharper than that.

As far as someone making claims based solely on comparing square inches of flow area, this is an oversimplified way of gauging an "improvement", and I (and a couple of my fellow Boeing nerds over in aero) would be happy to explain the lack of technical validity of such a comparison. Engine pumping losses are based on very dynamic conditions, and flow through a filter box is quite a bit more complicated than that.

My two cents on the subject, though, is that the factory Gen2 airbox is a decent setup, but there is 10+ more hp to be had. To that end, I plan on mapping pressure coefficients around my Viper's NACA duct and front grill in the somewhat near future, and maybe I can put a bit more meat into my article from the Summer '99 Viper Quarterly.
</nerdmode>

 

[DEVILDOG]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Comparing airboxes with the hood open and a 90 mph fan blowing equalizes the comparisons of different airbox aplications that is why you got no difference. IMHO the VIPAIR which I did a post on definitely gives a cold intake advantage... ergo a HP increase.Next time you do a compare close the hood AND HEAT UP THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT like it is while we are driving put the 90 mph fan in front of the car so it blows air into the NACA and the front fascia and compare your runs. I'll bet $10K that the VIPAIR shows an increase in HP & TQ over the stock box.

 

[Bob Woodhouse]

Intellectuals and nerds, an impressive group authoring this thread. Take this guy Adkins seriously. He has his stuff in a pile (Boeing engineer and knows aero). Three years ago he was instrumental in guiding several of us through air intake questions. In fact I think he was partially responsible for the test mule that Herb Helbig (Viper Team)was driving around of a GTS with no front Naca duct in it. What Dave pointed out is that the air flow characteristics over the front of the car (ie at the NACA duct) goes something like this: Below 80 mph; no difference ambient pressure. At 80 to 120 or so, a negative pressure is likely, at 120 and up some positive pressure may exist. To cut to the chase, we eliminated the naca duct all together on our GTS race car, used the forward half of the early (GEN I) intake air box and brought pressurized air from in front of the radiater. In other words, the NACA duct looks neat but the better system was on the earlier car where you can get cool air from the highest pressure area of the car, the grille opening. Major guesswork here but Dave calculated a 12 to ? hp gain in the 150 mph range based on the mildly pressurized air. Now that all of my competitors know this, you guys owe me, er no Dave.

 

[DEVILDOG]

Intellectuals and nerds, an impressive group authoring this thread. Take this guy Adkins seriously. He has his stuff in a pile (Boeing engineer and knows aero). Three years ago he was instrumental in guiding several of us through air intake questions. In fact I think he was partially responsible for the test mule that Herb Helbig (Viper Team)was driving around of a GTS with no front Naca duct in it. What Dave pointed out is that the air flow characteristics over the front of the car (ie at the NACA duct) goes something like this: Below 80 mph; no difference ambient pressure. At 80 to 120 or so, a negative pressure is likely, at 120 and up some positive pressure may exist. To cut to the chase, we eliminated the naca duct all together on our GTS race car, used the forward half of the early (GEN I) intake air box and brought pressurized air from in front of the radiater. In other words, the NACA duct looks neat but the better system was on the earlier car where you can get cool air from the highest pressure area of the car, the grille opening. Major guesswork here but Dave calculated a 12 to ? hp gain in the 150 mph range based on the mildly pressurized air. Now that all of my competitors know this, you guys owe me, er no Dave.

What he said!!! Bob, do you have any more pics of your GTS in the avatar that you can post?..looks awesome!

 

[jrkermode]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

The nose of the car has the highest pressure. So, I can understand how going there to get the intake air could help the engine breathe a little easier.

But, cold air? It's very possible I'm just ignorant, but the air has to travel through a hot air box, hot throttle bodies and hot intake manifold. These things are so much hotter than ambient that it would seem difficult for cold air to stay cold throughout the trip. Does anybody have temperature data to support the cold air claim? Perhaps someone could slip a thermocouple into the airstream through the joint where the intake tube attaches to the throttle body.

 

[DEVILDOG]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

The nose of the car has the highest pressure. So, I can understand how going there to get the intake air could help the engine breathe a little easier.

But, cold air? It's very possible I'm just ignorant, but the air has to travel through a hot air box, hot throttle bodies and hot intake manifold. These things are so much hotter than ambient that it would seem difficult for cold air to stay cold throughout the trip. Does anybody have temperature data to support the cold air claim? Perhaps someone could slip a thermocouple into the airstream through the joint where the intake tube attaches to the throttle body.

I'm no expert, however, I would think that colder air intake makes a difference or dynos would not adjust for air temperature.

 

[Dave Adkins]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Mr. Woodhouse, I appreciate you comments; however, I feel like no credit is due. Calculations are pretty straightforward, but what I'm really curious about is getting some real pressure measurements. I've never crunched the numbers and then gone on a flight test and had the numbers match up just right.

Gotta love the real world.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

The nose of the car has the highest pressure. So, I can understand how going there to get the intake air could help the engine breathe a little easier.

But, cold air? It's very possible I'm just ignorant, but the air has to travel through a hot air box, hot throttle bodies and hot intake manifold. These things are so much hotter than ambient that it would seem difficult for cold air to stay cold throughout the trip. Does anybody have temperature data to support the cold air claim? Perhaps someone could slip a thermocouple into the airstream through the joint where the intake tube attaches to the throttle body.

Im also no expert..But I think the air is traveling fast enough to not soak up "all" that heat from the airbox, throttle and intake manifold....It'll still be a lot cooler than sucking engine compartment air mixed with the ambient......It seem that if the Vipair box can give you 100% ambient air its gotta make power.

 

[Russ M]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Comparing airboxes with the hood open and a 90 mph fan blowing equalizes the comparisons of different airbox aplications that is why you got no difference. IMHO the VIPAIR which I did a post on definitely gives a cold intake advantage... ergo a HP increase.Next time you do a compare close the hood AND HEAT UP THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT like it is while we are driving put the 90 mph fan in front of the car so it blows air into the NACA and the front fascia and compare your runs. I'll bet $10K that the VIPAIR shows an increase in HP & TQ over the stock box.

Sorry but you are not getting the point of why I tested the car with the hood open on the dyno.

It was done to see if there would be a gain over a closed hood just sucking in from the naca duct, and there was none.

The Vipair may add power while traveling at extreme speeds 120mph but you cant measure that on a dyno.

I will be more than happy to buy a Vipair if tests are factual not theoretical, or seat of the pants. Believe me I would love to spend a few hundred bucks to gain 10hp, but until some more hard data comes back that wont happen.

Am I the only one who seems to believe that it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to design a product that works? The comments about me having to buy a Vipair to test it are absurd, lets see the manufacturers dyno results ALL of them. From what I remember there was supposed to be multiple dyno results from many 1/2 price units. Where are they?

PS. It was not my intention to single out the Vipair product, just so happens that the blind faith followers of this product are forcing the issue.

 

[FE 065]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

The lean front GenIII cylinders may be a mis-quote, but I'm quoting it as I heard it from him. He said longer runner manifold is 'said' to be good for +60hp. But he was only passing along info he'd heard within the company. I'd hope the DC folks are sharper than that too. I don't know..it seems there's more advanced engineering going into the Turbo Neon that their superstar Viper car. Where the DC turbo Viper? : ) As far as intake plenum heat, about 7 years ago I put a temp gauge with remote probe on the manifold and went for a drive. As I recall (it's been awhile) temps stayed relatively cool-cool enough to put your hands on the intake when I pulled over in disbelief to check my connection. I was really surprised, BUT when you idle or shut the car off, temps shoot up. So where does the heat go? We know underhood temps are very high at hwy speeds..a good (and only?) assumption would be that the intake plenums are air-cooled by the air rushing through them. If that's true, that means the air temps heading into the intake runners and ports are higher than one would think. I still think coating the intake completely with a heat barrier coating would be a good idea. Better yet would be an intake made out of something other than metal, but that's big $$.

 

[mrviper99]

Re: Cold Air Viper intakes-Its a no win

Russ; The only problem I see with what you are saying is, you had your hood propped open for the dyno runs. When you are doing that you are accomplishing the same as the Viperair device, You are taking outside air and filling the airbox with all cool outside air. Now if you closed the hood you would only be pulling cool air threw the NACA duct and the rest coming front under the hood. I saw GT SNAKE dyno his car, he made all of his runs with the hood closed, ran one cool engine then again hot engine. Then he waited 15 minutes installed the viperair, first run cool engine second run hot engine, on both runs when compared to the first cool and hot runs both made more HP and Torgue when the Viperair was installed. Around 8-10 HP. I wouldn't have believed it either if I wasn't there. I saw the numbers. I don't have a Viperair yet and don't have anything to gain by saying this. One thing to take notice is Dodge has done the same thing with the SRT 10, They have a duct in the hood takes air from the facia to fill the rest of the intake that the NACA duct doesn't when the hood is closed. Jeff