Its worth saving, help john help you

[JoelW]

So you think anyone will care what is going on in Washington in the next 3 years? Those idiots bring a whole new meaning to disfunctional... LOL

 

[pj]

so easy to bait the fish and have it swallowed
hook, line and sinker.

You are so 1337.

Tricked us, he did.

 

[pj]

Maurice should have accepted the position and been one of the leaders for change

Thanks, Dad.

 

[MoparBoyy]

Really? So you do not think there was any leakage from the Chrysler side at all? Or additional leakage from the VCA people by telephone calls or people who may have forwarded emails or copied and pasted parts of emails to others? Also, look at the VOA/VOC FAQ letter. Their stated grounds for formation are not just based on what occurred with Chrysler.

You are still missing the overall point. The VOPA/VOC people could have calmly and silently organized their effort and threatened to do what they did in a credible way to induce VCA change without actually doing it. That strategy would have worked. It was even suggested on this site, before the VOA/VOC organizers had their telecon with some Regional people, and after Jerry Colpits posted the letter inviting Maurice back to the VCA as the National VP. Whther the letter was a "kick in the balls" or not as someone posted, Maurice should have accepted the position and been one of the leaders for change. If he had done so, I think many would have viewed that act as a selfless and heroic act. I know that I would have and if he would change his mind and accept the position now, I would still view it as such.

As I suggested before, you need to stop drinking the VOA/VOC Koolaid and come back and help the new Board move the VCA forward. You are in a great Region with great people. Get together with them and help. Bashing the actions of the VCA's old Board after the battle for reform has already been won does not make much sense.

Now your saying Chrysler leaked details? To who? Why? Sounds like speculation to me....

You are missing my point, read post 74 again. They tried doing things the right way. What did that get them? 2 banned National Officers, a couple of banned *** members and a bunch of ********** people that quit.

My region is great because it's 1 of 2 regions that has confirmed it will stay with VCA??? Yes, only 2 regions so far, that can't be good. Our region was never asked to vote on this decision. Our president said she called everyone that was a member in our region and asked what their opinion was but i have yet to speak with someone that WAS called and i've talked to 5 or 6 other members about it. Not sure why an email vote wasn't done like all the other regions. In fact, no email or communication was ever sent out in our region notifying the membership of the issues with Chrysler and the club. The only email I got relating to this situation at all was the "moving forward" email.

 

[Mutts02GTS]

I know, I just wanted to fixate that irony in his head in a different way. He is a non-VCA member getting all goose-pimply about have "baited" VCA members to post in his thread on the VCA.org forum.

Lol, got it! .

 

[chorps]

Hi. Try reading with a bit more precision. The important thing is moving forward. As for Maurice, I do not see being offered the National Vice President position as being humiliated. I do see it as a way to apologize; patch things up and move forward. Maurice was Secretrary when Lee improperly terminated him. Asking Maurice to come back in an elevated position and be the second in command of the VCA was/is certainly not a put down. If anything, it was a showing of respect and confidence. No one is trying to force anyone back into the VCA. But, based on the VOA/VOC FAQs and the incredible hostility and anger shown toward anyone who still supports the VCA by some VOA/VOC supporters, I would say that all the bullying is from them. Just look at the posts on the other sites. Do you see any VCA people acting and posting like that using the same type of words? There is a reason the moderators are anonymous on this site. In the recent past, they were threatened. Now that is low. Very low. I think that most members do not care about the politics at all and are sick of reading/hearing about same. The new Board is making changes as fast as they can. The first member wide election for National officers will occur and new member elected leaders will be installed. Presidential powers will be reduced. Moderation has already improved. The Chrysler issues are being addressed. If that is not enough for some, I think that they should just move on and do their own thing. What good purpose does it serve for them to post hostile comments here? How does that improve member services or member benefits? Obviously, it does not.

Precision has always been lacking because the membership has been shown almost nothing from the VCA itself. Everything has been 'leaked' onto other websites and it is obvious that there is a significant portion of people here who are pretty tired of that. Seems like the VCA membership has always been 'the last to know.'

You place this 'moving forward' as being so important that it supercedes any of the (bloody) history that has caused it. You can't make the VCA any better without fixing the maladies that brought it low. It appears that many of previous execs have come to the conclusion that the VCA is untenable and are moving to form something new. Whether it itself is an improvement is something to be seen. Whether it improves the situation here is something else.

I don't know about Maurice, never talked to the guy or met him, but I'd bet part of his calculus going forward is "Kick me in the balls once, shame on you. Kick me in the balls twice, shame on me. And ow, my balls."

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Richard Koch]

Wanted. Are you actually Chris Marshall in disguise??

 

[Bobpantax]

I believe that Dan and other Board members have addressed some of your points in recent posts. Perhaps they will address them all as they get a chance to do so. Are you under the impression that the VCA is obligated on the leases? Are you aware of any law that requires a raffle holder to give back funds if the winning ticket was randomly drawn; the prize exists; and the prize was awarded? I ask because although it is not in my area of expertise, I have never heard of this type of remedy. The remedy for a raffle that hypothetically might not be properly licensed appears to be a minor fine and, in some states, a possible misdemeanor charge against the organizer. Note that a prosecutor, particularly in today's tight budget environment is unlikely to waste part of a tight budget on prosecuting a misdemeanor. The raffle itself is not set aside. If someone has research to the contrary, please post it. My intel on SRT/Chrysler is that Chrysler legal and Chrysler communications have both determined that Chrysler and its employees should stay above the fray until things sort themselves out a bit more. I understand that one of the findings made at the last VCA/Chrysler meeting was to have Chrysler appoint a person to communicate with the VCA and the VCA to appoint a person to communicate with Chrysler so all communications would be on a business to business basis without personal relationships causing any misperceptions or miscommunications. I do not know the status of the implementation of that. I would hope that the SRT Engineers would still be allowed to occasionally have a chat with us. That is just good marketing and business sense and is a pure gearhead thing - nothing to do with politics. It would also be good for SRT as a means of getting more current feedback on the experience of members who have bought a Gen V. To not continue the chats after launching a far more expensive car and previously marketing it heavily through the VCA site would be inconsistent with a good business and marketing plan. One of the Board members addressed the magazine issue you raise. I doubt that there is any realistic possibility of the VCA losing its non profit status either at the state or Federal level. Why did you raise this issue? Is there someone posting out there that is an expert in this subject area saying otherwise? If so, who is it? Just curious.

BobP,

Do we even know yet what legal and financial ramifications the VCA may be facing? Here are a couple of things that come to mind in regards to if the club can remain financially viable and keep its non profit status:

-Gen 5 Raffle: Are there going to be legal issues brought against the club? Will the club have to refund monies for all the tickets that were sold and monies collected?

-Loss of Supporting Vendors: Do we even know how many vendors will be left to help support the site/VCA financially? If not helping the VCA financially, will they even be allowed to post and answer questions?

-Leases the VCA is liable for: As I understand it, right now the VCA/VPA is responsible for $100,000.00 in yearly lease payments for two building we are renting to store tooling and VPA parts. Do we have any data showing when those leases are up, what the new lease options are if we stay, possibly moving for a better deal, etc.?? The leases are a binding contract that the VCA is liable for and it would be helpful to know what our options are.

-Any confirmation from SRT that they will support the VCA in the future? Per the last three years, I don't see a huge impact on having SRT "support" the club. Unless it is financial support, the tech support really is not what I would consider helpful for me. They cannot answer any questions pertaining to future products (makes it hard to make buying decisions for me), a lot of real issues such as window regulators obviously cannot be talked about, etc. When going to track events, there is no free or SRT deal that I have seen, we have to pay and buy tickets just like everybody else. I do like meeting the SRT guys at VCA dinners, etc, they have all be very nice and great to hang around with. An it now appears that they have embraced social media and will be doing SRT chat sessions on Facebook.....no more VCA or any Viper forum website is what my guts telling me.

-Viper Magazine: What is the future of the magazine? A lot of members actually consider this a major reason why they join the VCA. The never really post on the forums, but like the printed magazine and find value in it. The lack of consistent delivery schedules does not really add to the confidence that it will be a for sure thing.

I do feel that a lot of people are having a wait and see attitude until a lot of the above questions get answered. Regardless of how much you want to help and or save the VCA, from a legal standpoint many feel there will be no club to save because of the mounting legal and financial issues facing the VCA's future. Because of the tainted past, most that I talk to don't want to commit anything to the VCA until they get real information on where the club stands and if it will actually be allowed to continue from a legal standpoint.

George

 

[MoparBoyy]

I doubt that there is any realistic possibility of the VCA losing its non profit status either at the state or Federal level. Why did you raise this issue? Is there someone posting out there that is an expert in this subject area saying otherwise? If so, who is it? Just curious.

The state of Michigan is investigating the raffle. The state of Michigan is also where the VCA non profit status was issued. They can easily pull the status if they are not happy about the raffle.

 

[Bobpantax]

Based on what Michigan law? Has a Michigan lawyer who is knowledgeable about the applicable Michigan statutes and case law opined on this or is this just another reckless allegation being repeated? A non profit status cannot be "easily pulled" in any state. The non profit entity has procedural and appellate rights. At this point, I think that we all know that you are a stalking horse for the VOA/VOC and really do not have the best interests of the VCA or its members or your Region at heart at all. I support the VCA and hope that it repairs the damage and survives. Just admit that you do not support the VCA and that you hope that it does not survive. That is obviously how you feel. Then your position will be transparent since transparency seems to be the word of the moment.

The state of Michigan is investigating the raffle. The state of Michigan is also where the VCA non profit status was issued. They can easily pull the status if they are not happy about the raffle.

 

[3whitevipers]

MoparBoyy--
Who told you that Cathy called everyone in the chapter regarding staying with VCA?? Where do you come up with this crap? This never happened and once again you spread pure rubbish. Whats with you?--Dave

 

[MoparBoyy]

MoparBoyy--
Who told you that Cathy called everyone in the chapter regarding staying with VCA?? Where do you come up with this crap? This never happened and once again you spread pure rubbish. Whats with you?--Dave

Email that was received by a member after they told Cathy they no longer wished to be apart of the club:

*****, I will honor your request and remove you from the regional mailing list. This is the last correspondence you will receive . It has been a sad situation for all involved, and it is in the best interests of members worldwide not to be divided in to 2 clubs. We have a bylaw committee working this as we speak. The Coast to Coast Contract will expire Jan 1, 2014 ,and a new management co. will be in place. We are holding a special election in Jan,2014. Lee Stubberfield stepped down. In 1 short week the new board members have been working night and day to accomplish all these things. I have called many of our members- every single one of them with the exception of about 3-4 are willing to stick it out and give us an opportunity to make this right. Thank you ,Cathy Smiley

 

[Bobpantax]

You need to learn how to read more carefully. She did not say that she called ALL the members. She said that she had called many of the members.

Email that was received by a member after they told Cathy they no longer wished to be apart of the club:

*****, I will honor your request and remove you from the regional mailing list. This is the last correspondence you will receive . It has been a sad situation for all involved, and it is in the best interests of members worldwide not to be divided in to 2 clubs. We have a bylaw committee working this as we speak. The Coast to Coast Contract will expire Jan 1, 2014 ,and a new management co. will be in place. We are holding a special election in Jan,2014. Lee Stubberfield stepped down. In 1 short week the new board members have been working night and day to accomplish all these things. I have called many of our members- every single one of them with the exception of about 3-4 are willing to stick it out and give us an opportunity to make this right. Thank you ,Cathy Smiley

 

[MoparBoyy]

You need to learn how to read more carefully. She did not say that she called ALL the members. She said that she had called many of the members.

You also need to learn how to read. I have not talked to a single member yet that did get a phone call. I'm a Viper tech in the region and have many VCA members as customers. None of them received a phone call. So you now approve of selective polling Bob? Is that allowed in the bylaws somewhere?

 

[3whitevipers]

MoparBoyy--
Can you read?? E-mail says that she called MANY members (not every member) and most of those she talked with wanted to stay. She clearly does not say that she called every member. That's what I mean about you spreading pure rubbish.

 

[TrackAire]

I believe that Dan and other Board members have addressed some of your points in recent posts. Perhaps they will address them all as they get a chance to do so. Are you under the impression that the VCA is obligated on the leases? Are you aware of any law that requires a raffle holder to give back funds if the winning ticket was randomly drawn; the prize exists; and the prize was awarded? I ask because although it is not in my area of expertise, I have never heard of this type of remedy. The remedy for a raffle that hypothetically might not be properly licensed appears to be a minor fine and, in some states, a possible misdemeanor charge against the organizer. Note that a prosecutor, particularly in today's tight budget environment is unlikely to waste part of a tight budget on prosecuting a misdemeanor. The raffle itself is not set aside. If someone has research to the contrary, please post it. My intel on SRT/Chrysler is that Chrysler legal and Chrysler communications have both determined that Chrysler and its employees should stay above the fray until things sort themselves out a bit more. I understand that one of the findings made at the last VCA/Chrysler meeting was to have Chrysler appoint a person to communicate with the VCA and the VCA to appoint a person to communicate with Chrysler so all communications would be on a business to business basis without personal relationships causing any misperceptions or miscommunications. I do not know the status of the implementation of that. I would hope that the SRT Engineers would still be allowed to occasionally have a chat with us. That is just good marketing and business sense and is a pure gearhead thing - nothing to do with politics. It would also be good for SRT as a means of getting more current feedback on the experience of members who have bought a Gen V. To not continue the chats after launching a far more expensive car and previously marketing it heavily through the VCA site would be inconsistent with a good business and marketing plan. One of the Board members addressed the magazine issue you raise. I doubt that there is any realistic possibility of the VCA losing its non profit status either at the state or Federal level. Why did you raise this issue? Is there someone posting out there that is an expert in this subject area saying otherwise? If so, who is it? Just curious.

I was hoping you could shed some light on all the questions you are asking back to me. That is one of the major problems, nobody from the VCA has posted answer to these questions, not just in the last 20 days but even before.

Regarding the leases, the VCA has not listed anything I've seen to either confirm or deny the liability of the leases. (this is where transparency and listing of financials for the last 3 years might have been prudent). If there are not enough regions to support the VCA financially in a way they are accustomed to, then leases of $100k per year is something that can bring the club down. Without financials, there is no way to know if the VPA makes enough profit to cover the $100k per year lease liability. Regarding the "chance to address them" all the VCA has to say is yes we have leases and these are the terms. Takes about 5 minutes if you take your time to look up the lease agreements and option terms.

Regarding the Raffle car, I believe it was Dan that posted the VCA has spent $10,000.00 in attorneys fees to find out if the car could be raffled off legally....I believe the answer was no. Yet the car was raffled so there may be more legal costs coming down the road....is the VCA going to be able to afford this? Some people are already asking their credit card companies for credit back on the raffle tickets, claiming improprieties. If enough people do this, then were is the VCA going to get the monies to refund the charge backs? I'm not even going to get into the politics of where the raffle was held, who was the latest winner, etc. I'm just concerned how the raffle might hurt the future financially and if the VCA can afford it. Your questioning why anybody would get money back if the raffle was held, ticket was drawn and prize awarded is only of concern if the raffle was not legal. That would make it an illegal gaming situation. What those ramifications are I don't know but if it was not legal to begin with and proven as such, who knows what the penalties are. Being sarcastic here, but I had no idea that an illegal gaming case involving $250,000.00 would just be a misdemeanor.

Regarding Chrysler, who knows the true outcome for future communications and working with SRT. But I did post when the letter from Chrysler went public that this situation will be the poster child for why manufacturers will not work directly with car clubs and forums. Not just from SRT, but Ford, GM, etc. Interesting that the only club that Chrysler has helped financially is the one going viral and sending out letters to Sergio. I personally think that bridge has been burned, period. Not just for the VCA but any car club. This is very disappointing as it was one of the benefits I felt was very unique in many ways and not available from Ford or GM.

Regarding the non profit issue, I'm not an expert in corporate law, but when the non profit co-mingles with the for profit side of the business, then legal issues may come up. Piercing the corporate veil is not hard to do if not all the "T's" are crossed and the "I's" are dotted. So will the lack of timely financials mean something here? Did the VCA legal team set up the VCA to VPA business relationship perfectly? Who knows as of yet, but piercing the corporate veil happens all the time....I'm guessing the IRS is an expert an popping the bubble. If the VCA loses its non profit status, what does that mean for 2014?

Regarding Supporting Vendors, how many will be here and how many have agreed to sign up for 2014? These are important questions for members to consider (one of the benefits of the VCA, getting new product releases and asking tech questions of the approved vendors).

Again, these issues all add up to put doubts in potential or past members minds as to what to do. A lot of people are just sitting on the sidelines waiting. I think you'll find that if the VCA does continue, that many people will join the VCA and even join a new Viper club (honestly, the membership costs to join the VCA are tiny from a financial side). In the end, both clubs will have to work harder than ever to keep and sway the Viper owner to stay with them. Potentially, this could be the best thing for the average Viper owner, more benefits with less costs. Competition is a good thing in business and even car clubs. But until you start seeing some hard answers come back from the VCA, don't expect a lot of people to want to jump on board to help the current VCA until all info and changes are brought forth. And the answers need to come from the VCA directly, preferably from the president.

Cheers,
George

 

[MoparBoyy]

MoparBoyy--
Can you read?? E-mail says that she called MANY members (not every member) and most of those she talked with wanted to stay. She clearly does not say that she called every member. That's what I mean about you spreading pure rubbish, and then attempting to say that she or someone else is lying. You are a real piece of work . I will avoid Sanford Dodge like the plague to avoid you working on my cars because apparently you cannot read let alone act rationally.---Dave

I never said she never made any phone calls. I 100% believe she did. I have never called Cathy a liar as I know she is not that kind of person. She is one of the nicest people I have ever met. What I don't understand is why there wasn't an email sent out to ALL members like there was in the other regions? She has the email list and uses it regularly. Isn't selective communication how we got here in the first place? I thought things were suppose to be changing.

 

[Bobpantax]

Hi TrackAire. Take a look at this article. It is pretty good. Is Your Fundraising Raffle Legal in Your State? | NALS...the association for legal professionals

It appears to be from 2011, so the data should be updated but it is useful to see a more realistic picture of the meaning of hypothetical raffle violations. The word "gaming" has a different meaning than "raffle". And here is an article on nonprofit entities being able to own for profit entities. It too may need a little updating but you can see that if done correctly, there is nothing wrong with doing it. http://www.sdlaw.com/files/Download/subsidiaries.htm I have done some research for my own benefit and, based on that research, I think that the vCA will work its way through any problems that might be there and be just fine. As for having enough Regions, I am not worried about that either. Once people fully understand the way the new Board is going to redo the bylaws to empower the members, and the Regions, things will settle down. As for the leases, I think Dan is a pretty astute businessperson and handling leases is not rocket science. So, the bottom line is I am hopeful that the VCA will work its way through the issues and be OK.

 

[Bobpantax]

Using your lexicon, I think the way it went down is that a group on the Board first had a gang ************ on Lee. He found out that the ************ had not been done lawfully. So, he decided to deliver a ************ of his own all by himself without the group aspect to it while, at the same time, taking his balls home. Regardless of how you view Lee's actions, for a brief moment in time, Lee was the Bruce Lee of ball kickers. The new Board then found out that Maurice's ************ was also illegal and invited him back with a promotion to National Vice President. Now the one thing you have to take into consideration is that Lee is much older than Maurice and the others and that a ************ from a young gang against an older person is logically far more painful than the ball kick of one older person against some of the gang. LOL.

Precision has always been lacking because the membership has been shown almost nothing from the VCA itself. Everything has been 'leaked' onto other websites and it is obvious that there is a significant portion of people here who are pretty tired of that. Seems like the VCA membership has always been 'the last to know.'

You place this 'moving forward' as being so important that it supercedes any of the (bloody) history that has caused it. You can't make the VCA any better without fixing the maladies that brought it low. It appears that many of previous execs have come to the conclusion that the VCA is untenable and are moving to form something new. Whether it itself is an improvement is something to be seen. Whether it improves the situation here is something else.

I don't know about Maurice, never talked to the guy or met him, but I'd bet part of his calculus going forward is "Kick me in the balls once, shame on you. Kick me in the balls twice, shame on me. And ow, my balls."

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[chorps]

Using your lexicon, I think the way it went down is that a group on the Board first had a gang ************ on Lee. He found out that the ************ had not been done lawfully. So, he decided to deliver a ************ of his own all by himself without the group aspect to it while, at the same time, taking his balls home. Regardless of how you view Lee's actions, for a brief moment in time, Lee was the Bruce Lee of ball kickers. The new Board then found out that Maurice's ************ was also illegal and invited him back with a promotion to National Vice President. Now the one thing you have to take into consideration is that Lee is much older than Maurice and the others and that a ************ from a young gang against an older person is logically far more painful than the ball kick of one older person against some of the gang. LOL.

Love the way you portray Lee as the victim and aggrieved party.

Can't wait until your first novel comes out...that Adolf character will be the classic misunderstood cartoonist who goes onto glory and becomes the beloved conqueror.

 

[Bobpantax]

Jeez. Grow a sense of humor. It must be really cold up there now. By the way, comparing a car club President to one of history's greatest monsters is so completely absurd and inappropriate, it is ridiculous. You do have some comprehension of that - don't you? If not, I feel sorry for you. Take care.

Love the way you portray Lee as the victim and aggrieved party.
Can't wait until your first novel comes out...that Adolf character will be the classic misunderstood cartoonist who goes onto glory and becomes the beloved conqueror.

 

[10 BANGER]

People please, can we all just get along?
Yes, could of, should of, would of. Now let's be positive, gather our thoughts in a constructive manner and move forward.
There are way to many brilliant minds in this club to allow a few spoiled apples taint it any further. We can bounce back and take what's ours.
Stop the finger pointing, we're better than that.
Thank you for taking the time to read my post and please, be the better person towards negative feedback, be positive.
Regards,
demoe
vca member

 

[TowDawg]

I have been very vocal about major issues within the VCA for a while now (and have the multiple moderated statuses to prove it). I will say that I do think is trying to go right road with eyes to the future, and I commend him for that.
The problem is that the trust is so far gone (from members and SRT/Ralph), that I don't know if it can ever be gotten back. And no matter how much Dan tries, he is fighting a major uphill battle since he was one of Lee's appointees. While working toward a better future is good, the members have seen basically no "real" action (other than less censored conversations on here). Very simple questions remain unanswered and certain people are still in positions without a complete deadline. Not to mention those people are being allowed to choose actions and will be colored as "stepping down in the best interests of the club". The best interests of the club were not in their minds for quite a while now (at least their actions tend to show they were not), and they should not only be axed immediately, but not in a "nice, stepping down" way. They should be gone and banned form anything having to with the VCA again.
The cover-ups and lies are old and far reaching, and I feel just trying to fix the direction for the future will not be enough. Everything from the past needs to be aired and let the chips/charges fall where they may. Continuing to cover them up in the interest of just fixing the future does not fix the feelings caused by the past actions.
The financial questions (not just about the possible raffle consequences) are very valid. Not only in terms of open disclosure, but in terms of whether the VCA will survive or not. Whether a lot of members are on the forums a lot doesn't mean that they have not been contacted by their regional presidents and will not be renewing in 2014. I believe there are a lot of chapters that while they have not voted to pull out right now, will not be rejoining come 2014. If you take the potential financial problems (which there definitely appear to be, with raffle money supposedly being used to cover the % of dues that were supposed to go to the regions earlier this year), potential additional legal issues (raffle and non-profit status (My understanding is it clearly against IRS rules to blatantly move expenses from a non-profit to a for-profit to gain a tax advantage, such as Herb's salary.)), then the club could cease to exist if a good number of regions suddenly aren't sending in money anymore.
I won't go into a lot of things here point-by-point, but the the way you guys are talking about whether Cathy called "all" or "some" of the members is killing me. It really doesn't matter in my eyes. She stated she called "many" members. A survey of hand picked recipients doesn't mean much. If she has the group email set-up and uses it for other things, but chose to only call certain members about this situation in order to then report it as "support" in an email, looks like something the VCA would have done in the past. I do not know her, so I cannot comment specifically on how/why it was done that way, but from the outside, it does not look to be on the up and up.

 

[chorps]

Jeez. Grow a sense of humor. It must be really cold up there now. By the way, comparing a car club President to one of history's greatest monsters is so completely absurd and inappropriate, it is ridiculous. You do have some comprehension of that - don't you? If not, I feel sorry for you. Take care.

It looks like you're getting too much sun down there. Your polemics and apologist stance for the last President has really showed that you have some strange idea that glossing all of it over is going to heal a rift that has been a long time coming.

Never made any comparison like you say there...a little bit of over reading?

 

[Bobpantax]

Since you have now demonstrated that you do not have a sense of humor and that you cannot see that your ****** comment was completely ridiculous , I have put you on ignore. Perhaps it would be best if you would put me on ignore. Take care.

It looks like you're getting too much sun down there. Your polemics and apologist stance for the last President has really showed that you have some strange idea that glossing all of it over is going to heal a rift that has been a long time coming.

Never made any comparison like you say there...a little bit of over reading?

 

[slysnake]

I believe the op has accomplished what he desired. To get things fired up again. By his lack of further posting in this thread I guess he is sitting back, sipping a drink, and enjoying his work. Nice job, troll.

 

[chorps]

Since you have now demonstrated that you do not have a sense of humor and that you cannot see that your ****** comment was completely ridiculous , I have put you on ignore. Perhaps it would be best if you would put me on ignore. Take care.

****** who? Someone is definitely wound up pretty tight.

 

[99 R/T 10]

Jeez. Grow a sense of humor. It must be really cold up there now. By the way, comparing a car club President to one of history's greatest monsters is so completely absurd and inappropriate, it is ridiculous. You do have some comprehension of that - don't you? If not, I feel sorry for you. Take care.

Yeah, no. It's not absurd or Inappropriate. Because of how lee handled himself, it hits pretty close to the mark.

 

[CitySnake]

Is it not odd to all the participants in this thread that there are no posts from anyone with first hand knowledge of the historical and present facts being debated? On one side there seems to be a lack of interest in divulging information and on the other, well, most are silent a) due to their being in a "moderated" status or b) due to their deliberate decision not to participate. In the end, which I believe will be sooner than later, what will be will be and folks will make their own decisions based on the facts and circumstances that become revealed. In the interim, it's quite apparent that neither side is going to convince the other, especially with only conjecture as the foundation of arguments.

 

[steve911]

they have already said they are too busy trying to save the club than answer the questions put ot them. Maybe all of the non disclosure agreements they had to sign are preventing them....