Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine ! (Story of the new VC computer)

[Viper Specialty]

They are working on finding a solution to retrofit the tranny which itself was also improved. According to the lucky guys who drove it, you fill a difference right away you drive this Viper. Shifting is much easier and precise.

The Viper is here to stay for a couple of years more (until 2010 at least) !
[/b]

Why would a solution for retrofitting be needed? any idea? It is a TR-6060, which should be the same/similar to (externally) as the T-56. Since its the same block/chassis, the bellhousings will fit both engines, and transmissions will fit both cars. The only issue may be the clutch difference, which would be easy enough to remedy with a swap or custom clutch... as well as a driveshaft swap if the overall length is a little different.

 

[Viper Specialty]

SRT called it a "phaser". oil pressure controls the movement of the exhaust lobe. At idle the exhaust valve closes earlier.

If I am wrong, then it must be some type of hydralic camshaft, which uses hydraulic pressure to move the exhaust lobes. Probably pressure biases like a stepper assembly and constantly adjusts using some type of cam position sensor.

Very interesting. I honestly had no idea...glad I am on the same wavelength as the SRT guys!

 

[Casey]

Seems as though it's GREAT news for Vipers from all generations!

 

[pdmracing]

Some of my observations:

I saw them dyno the new 08 @ saw 618 @ 6000rpm with over 500 ft lbs down around 2700!

They said they are working on a retrofit package for the clutch/trans/rear but the Mopar rep wasnt there to fill us in on avalability or what gens it will fit. Apparently the clutch/trans package is longer than the current gen 3.

When asked about retrofitting the cam stuff, I got the impression it wasnt possible. Or maybee too much effort for the result. The reason for the cam timing change is to stop misfiring @ idle for obd2 emmisions. They close the exhaust valve early @ idle & open it up to make power later.

The heads are a work of art & according the srt guys it would cost around 5k labor to hand port some like it if at all possible. The valve seats are siamesed & keyed. The ports from the seats about an inch up are higly polished , then the rest of the port is smooth, but not polished. The new CNC machining is done on a multi axis, an industry first. The reason for the displacement increase is it uses the same rod, with full floating pin, & piston as the 6.1 hemi.

Excuse me if this has been said before.

 

[Kenny]

Some of my observations:

I saw them dyno the new 08 @ saw 618 @ 6000rpm with over 500 ft lbs down around 2700!

They said they are working on a retrofit package for the clutch/trans/rear but the Mopar rep wasnt there to fill us in on avalability or what gens it will fit. Apparently the clutch/trans package is longer than the current gen 3.

When asked about retrofitting the cam stuff, I got the impression it wasnt possible. Or maybee too much effort for the result. The reason for the cam timing change is to stop misfiring @ idle for obd2 emmisions. They close the exhaust valve early @ idle & open it up to make power later.

The heads are a work of art & according the srt guys it would cost around 5k labor to hand port some like it if at all possible. The valve seats are siamesed & keyed. The ports from the seats about an inch up are higly polished , then the rest of the port is smooth, but not polished. The new CNC machining is done on a multi axis, an industry first. The reason for the displacement increase is it uses the same rod, with full floating pin, & piston as the 6.1 hemi.

Excuse me if this has been said before.

Some good new info here. As Daniel asked earlier, but was not replied to, does anyone know if this new motor uses the same hydraulically driven fan or does it revert to an electric fan? It definitely appears to have a new power steering pump.

 

[pdmracing]

Some good new info here. As Daniel asked earlier, but was not replied to, does anyone know if this new motor uses the same hydraulically driven fan or does it revert to an electric fan? It definitely appears to have a new power steering pump.

[/QUOTE]

Electric, same as comp coupe. Im still dazed from the trip, so there is much Im forgetting

 

[Racer Robbie]

A big thanks to Schulmann and to you too Fast Freddy. I am afraid you might be quite correct in the fact that the nail may be being put in our tuners coffins as the feds tighten the noose around performance cars.

Robbie

 

[Viper Specialty]

Some good new info here. As Daniel asked earlier, but was not replied to, does anyone know if this new motor uses the same hydraulically driven fan or does it revert to an electric fan? It definitely appears to have a new power steering pump.

Electric, same as comp coupe. Im still dazed from the trip, so there is much Im forgetting

[/QUOTE]

Hmm... well thats something I didnt want to hear. the CFM that the Hydraulic system can flow was incredible, not to mention it being "free power" as it was running off an already wasted accessory pump. I never had any type of cooling issue in my car, or any SRT for that matter, no matter the outside temp. I just hope that the new electric system holds up... testing in the CC doesnt mean much, its not exactly a car that sits in traffic! I guess they had to cut something somewhere, that hydraulic system couldnt have been cheap to produce.

 

[Schulmann]

By the way the present VC (Venom control) is not OBD-3 compliant yet.

There are a lot of small changes on this engine and the only thing retrofittable is the head. That's it. Forget everything else. Mopar will work hard to have the GEN4 tranny available for older Viper generations.

Some numbers that we saw during our visit at the RD center on the second set of production street engines:

Torque at the engin (with cats but no muffler): 580 lb
HP at the engin (with cats but no muffler): 620 hp

 

[Viper Specialty]

By the way the present VC (Venom control) is not OBD-3 compliant yet.

There are a lot of small changes on this engine and the only thing retrofittable is the head. That's it. Forget everything else. Mopar will work hard to have the GEN4 tranny available for older Viper generations.

Some numbers that we saw during our visit at the RD center on the second set of production street engines:

Torque at the engin (with cats but no muffler): 580 lb
HP at the engin (with cats but no muffler): 620 hp

Anything is retrofittable... it just depends how bad you want it.

The VVT system may be a bigger problem to the aftermarket than it is worth, that is true. The new heads fit, Thats a good thing. The clutch doesnt matter much, the aftermarket is already loaded with a bazillion different types. The trans SHOULD fit with Driveshaft mods and perhaps a unique clutch system, while the bellhousing should bolt up. The oiling system is of interest though, even if just parts of it with the addition of custom machining old parts to make them fit. I have never really liked Gen 1, 2 or 3 oiling systems... maybe its finally been fixed.

 

[Schulmann]

Anything is retrofittable... it just depends how bad you want it.

You are absolutaly right Daniel.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Anything is retrofittable... it just depends how bad you want it.

You are absolutaly right Daniel.

You bent way too easily on that one... I want to debate! lol!

 

[Viper X]

Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine ! (Story of the new VC compute

Hey Daniel,

The block is similar, based upon the Gen III but not the same. Most external items appear to be compatible.

The Cam has hydaulically operated lobes as you guessed. My guess, SRT could and will likely vary both intake and exhaust in the future for more ponies.

I recall that the cam timing sensor pick up is in the center of the block.

The new timing cover (oil pump included) will fit and work with the Gen III block. The pick up is a refined version of the comp coupe's pick up with a greater range of motion.

The new heads are CNC machined and will bolt on the Gen III block. They are very similar to the Stryker heads but have 12 degree valve alignment instead of 18 (if memory serves). My guess, Jeff Morey was involved in the development. The ports are larger and shaped differently, so new headers will be required. The valves are also bigger and the intake valves are filled. Springs are a bit stiffer.

The lifters are smaller and lighter (from the Hemi).

The pistons and rods are also from the 6.1 Hemi.

Twin electric throttle bodies indicate to me (I'm just guessing) that an electronically controlled paddle shifted auto trans may be a future option. I'd love to see this but others may not.

The headers are really unique with a tube within an enclosed chamber type approach.

As I watched one 08 engine on the dyno, the operator increased the speed momentarily to just over 6000 rpm and the dyno hp ran up to 618 hp. This engine is being very conservatively rated based upon what I saw.

A very nice package in all.

These guys have really put a bunch of work into this project and it shows.

Dan

 

[Yellow32]

By the way the present VC (Venom control) is not OBD-3 compliant yet.

? there is no OBD 3 definition yet, it's still a work in process

So, nothing is OBD 3 compliant because there is nothing to be compliant with.

?

-J

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine ! (Story of the new VC compute

Hey Daniel,

The block is similar, based upon the Gen III but not the same. Most external items appear to be compatible.

The Cam has hydaulically operated lobes as you guessed. My guess, SRT could and will likely vary both intake and exhaust in the future for more ponies.

I recall that the cam timing sensor pick up is in the center of the block.

The new timing cover (oil pump included) will fit and work with the Gen III block. The pick up is a refined version of the comp coupe's pick up with a greater range of motion.

The new heads are CNC machined and will bolt on the Gen III block. They are very similar to the Stryker heads but have 12 degree valve alignment instead of 18 (if memory serves). My guess, Jeff Morey was involved in the development. The ports are larger and shaped differently, so new headers will be required. The valves are also bigger and the intake valves are filled. Springs are a bit stiffer.

The lifters are smaller and lighter (from the Hemi).

The pistons and rods are also from the 6.1 Hemi.

Twin electric throttle bodies indicate to me (I'm just guessing) that an electronically controlled paddle shifted auto trans may be a future option. I'd love to see this but others may not.

The headers are really unique with a tube within an enclosed chamber type approach.

As I watched one 08 engine on the dyno, the operator increased the speed momentarily to just over 6000 rpm and the dyno hp ran up to 618 hp. This engine is being very conservatively rated based upon what I saw.

A very nice package in all.

These guys have really put a bunch of work into this project and it shows.

Dan

Hey Dan,

Thanks a bunch, those were the specifics I was wondering about.

I must really be on the same wavelength as SRT, at this point it is just weird! The oil pickup changes that you mentioned- I have already done it! In fact, the revised design was slated for release this spring! I had even mentioned it to some of my customers, Kai for example- I'm not just making it up. In my version, it used a revised oil block and a different swing arm to change the range of motion, and fix its flaw about only swinging one way, and always being too forward in the pan. Go figure... guess I can save myself the hassle now.

As far as the block specifics, If I was to guess, its simply a 2006 block with a 1mm overbore, metric threads (saw that mentioned) and boss for the cam sensor/associated parts. I have done some conversions before, such as changing an 04 block over to 06 style crank sensors, adding knock sensors to 03-04 blocks... its amazing what you can do with a machine shop & a TIG welder...heh.

As soon as this engine is available, I think am going to grab one and tear it down and see what can be done with it.

 

[viper spray]

Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine ! (Story of the new VC compute

Great info. (except for FFs rambling) , thanks for the update.

 

[Vipermann]

Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine ! (Story of the new VC compute

The new heads are CNC machined and will bolt on the Gen III block. They are very similar to the Stryker heads but have 12 degree valve alignment instead of 18 (if memory serves). My guess, Jeff Morey was involved in the development. The ports are larger and shaped differently, so new headers will be required. The valves are also bigger and the intake valves are filled. Springs are a bit stiffer.

The lifters are smaller and lighter (from the Hemi).


The headers are really unique with a tube within an enclosed chamber type approach.

Ignorant question: Will upgraded shaft rockers from a Gen 3 be able to be transferred to the new Gen 4 head? or will the new head require new rockers in addition to new valves & springs, etc.? The answer may not be available yet, but if so (I already have $1,500 ******* in a set of new rockers), and if Mopar sells the heads for a reasonable price, then I'll be on of the first to try the new heads and headers ...

 

[Nader]

Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine ! (Story of the new VC compute

Does Mopar sell anything for the Viper at a reasonable price?

 

[Finally got it !]

Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine ! (Story of the new VC compute

Does Mopar sell anything for the Viper at a reasonable price?

Magnetic drain plugs are pretty reasonable.......

 

[Viper X]

Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine ! (Story of the new VC compute

Daniel,

The 08 block also has some water passage changes that may be there to accomodate the new heads and for better engine cooling in general.

Vipermann,

On the rockers, I beleive that the ports are positioned slightly differently, similar to the Stryker heads, so some of the rockers are offset from center. It is very unlikely that Gen III rockers will work with these heads. The Stryker rockers may work, not sure.

On the heads, yes, they will bolt on to the Gen III block. Keep in mind that you will need to buy a new intake manifold, pushrods, throttle bodies, timing cover, oil pan assembly with pick up and exhaust, etc. Then you'd need a computer to run the new electonic throttle bodies, programming, etc. This would not be an easy or cheap swap.

Dan

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine ! (Story of the new VC compute

Daniel,

The 08 block also has some water passage changes that may be there to accomodate the new heads and for better engine cooling in general.

I dont know if you have the specifics on this, but I would be curious... My guess would be altered passage hole sizes that feed the water jackets in the heads? They would seem to be the "bottlekneck" of the current system, and changes anywhere else wouldnt net net any big effects, while also weakening the torsional stiffness of the block. The external return passage size seems unchanged, and the timing cover fitting seems to also confirm litle/no change on the frontal passages.

PS- (off topic) Those two piece intake manifolds are surely going to have some awesome flow numbers- thats one hell of an easy port job...if even neccessary!

 

[AviP]

The Venom control is the basement of a new generation high tech Vipers.

I hate that sentence. McLaren should keep it's high-tech crap to F1 where they have been blowing up as frequently as a caution in Nascar.

 

[wormdoggy]

I have the belanger headers on my vehicle already. The system is light years ahead of the current design in my opinion. I just hope they don;t use the entire exhaust without some modifications to the 02 sensor positioning.

Patrick

 

[M. ROD]

I hate that sentence. McLaren should keep it's high-tech crap to F1 where they have been blowing up as frequently as a caution in Nascar.

Wrong McLaren.

McLAREN PERFORMANCE TECHNOLOGIES

You must be registered for see images

 

[Warfang]

I hate that sentence. McLaren should keep it's high-tech crap to F1 where they have been blowing up as frequently as a caution in Nascar.

Wrong McLaren.

McLAREN PERFORMANCE TECHNOLOGIES

You must be registered for see images

confusing... and both mclarens work with DC. Wonder if they ever get the wrong checks?

 

[M. ROD]

confusing... and both mclarens work with DC

Yes

 

[Paul Hawker]

The engineers mentioned that the physical issues for installing many of the new parts could be overcome in the aftermarket. The biggest issue is that the computer is controlled by over 300,000 lines of code.

We saw the most amazing video of the heads being ported and texture polished. Not only did the arm that held the cutter move with computer numerical controlled precision, but in addition the multi thousand pound jig that held the head also moved in geometrical harmony with the cutting shaft. Spell binding. (Picture one hand holding the cutter, and your other hand holding the head, both rotating in space).

Gentlemen. I believe this new engine is a quantum leap in push rod engine development. The Team Viper has really come up with some novel solutions to our unquenchable desire for higher performance.
This will probably be the basis for drivelines for years to come.

 

[1TONY1]

Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine ! (Story of the new VC compute

Judging from what I can see, the only shared part is the block... but then again, thats all that matters. Damn near everything from this engine should fit on the current cars, and thats a good thing! Oil pan/timing covers will be on backorder... I can see it now.

I did notice the Cam Position Sensor is missing however... thats one needed addition to swap over. But it raises another question;

Did the engineers give any kind of information relating to how exactly this VVT system works? I am inclined to believe it either has some type of variable length lifters, a "cam within a cam" that has variable Int/Ex lobes, or perhaps some type of variable rockers...?

Lastly, I noticed that they moved the PS reservior off of the pump. I am assuming that they did this for clearance purposes? Does the 2008 still retain its hydraulic cooling system?

It is a cam within a cam.

 

[Viper X]

Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine ! (Story of the new VC compute

Cooling will be by twin electric fans. The single hydraulic system is history. Radiator size is the same as the current Gen III.

No sure on the exact positioning of the new cooling passages in the block.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine ! (Story of the new VC compute

Cooling will be by twin electric fans. The single hydraulic system is history. Radiator size is the same as the current Gen III.

No sure on the exact positioning of the new cooling passages in the block.

As I said above... thats a shame. That was one damn cool cooling system... but it couldnt have been cheap, thats for sure. 2 electric fans, a little wiring and a few relays is a whole lot cheaper than hydraulic lines, hydrualic motors and a stepper control system. Gotta cut costs somewhere I suppose...