I second this motion. Having it dyno tuned by a well seasoned Viper tuner is the only way to really know what the new setup is capable of.
Good luck!!!!
Kenne Bell 2.8H Upgrade
- Thread starter EllowViper
- Start date
I second this motion. Having it dyno tuned by a well seasoned Viper tuner is the only way to really know what the new setup is capable of.
Good luck!!!!
white out
Enthusiast
I have to agree with UTAH on running the lower psi pulley, killing the ****/water injection, and getting a solid tune/map. Then making some changes to accommodate the higher boost and water/****. It will probably save you a ton of time too.
Definitely get the idle & cruise tune dialed in before the WOT.
Can you talk with any tuners that have worked with higher psi roe cars and see if you can get a base map?
Good luck, this stage ***** on any car.
Nick
Definitely get the idle & cruise tune dialed in before the WOT.
Can you talk with any tuners that have worked with higher psi roe cars and see if you can get a base map?
Yeah, that works too. But tuning a car isn't the hardest thing in the world. Just very time consuming if you don't have a good map to start off with.
Good luck, this stage ***** on any car.
Nick
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
I don't really understand why the only thing people have to say is, take it to a tuner?
Some of you are so scared of working on your own cars, its surprising you even drive them at all.
I live over 1000mi from the nearest Viper tuner. Should I not even own a Viper? How would I ever get my car tuned? If I did get it tuned, it would be at sea level, so it wouldn't run optimally here at 4500ft; how is it any different for me to tune it and tune it well? I would bet no tuner could get my car dialed in as well as I have over the past year. And now I have friends asking me to help them tune their Vipers.
Eric,
you could try starting your car and listen for the misfire. Then start disconnecting the injector connectors one at a time while its idling and listen for changes. If there is no change, then you know that injector is not firing correctly.
Also, how are your O2 sensors? Slow reacting sensors can cause random misfiring, and not show up as bad.
Everyone is saying, don't do any more WOT runs. I think you are smart enough not to do this right now. This is obviously not a tuning issue, it is a mechanical/electrical problem that is causing the car to run improperly.
Good luck and keep up the good work
Some of you are so scared of working on your own cars, its surprising you even drive them at all.
I live over 1000mi from the nearest Viper tuner. Should I not even own a Viper? How would I ever get my car tuned? If I did get it tuned, it would be at sea level, so it wouldn't run optimally here at 4500ft; how is it any different for me to tune it and tune it well? I would bet no tuner could get my car dialed in as well as I have over the past year. And now I have friends asking me to help them tune their Vipers.
Eric,
you could try starting your car and listen for the misfire. Then start disconnecting the injector connectors one at a time while its idling and listen for changes. If there is no change, then you know that injector is not firing correctly.
Also, how are your O2 sensors? Slow reacting sensors can cause random misfiring, and not show up as bad.
Everyone is saying, don't do any more WOT runs. I think you are smart enough not to do this right now. This is obviously not a tuning issue, it is a mechanical/electrical problem that is causing the car to run improperly.
Good luck and keep up the good work
I suggested the tuner in order to see what the system is capable of. It's no secret that the big name tuners can safely squeeze every ounce of performance out of these FI cars (much more safely than the DIY'ers can).
May I make a suggestion, when you send the injectors off to get checked out, put the old injectors in and see if it still misfires. Let me know if you need some help tuning. I used to be pretty good at tuning with vec's. I am good at ringing out every last bit of power available versus driveability but I can still help with that. PM if you want any help.
Great project and keep us posted.
Great project and keep us posted.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Keep the ideas coming! Can't pull individual injector plugs while running. Hidden under the inlet tubes. Sold the old Green Tops to get the "new" Siemens...LOL so can't install the old to check them out. Will do a compression test in the next day or two just to verify, but plugs look good. Injectors mailed off to Tony this AM. Old base 10 PSI tune good to go as a baseline for this set-up. Its just a bigger/efficient blower folks. The only real "significant" variable I've introduced from the old set-up are the injectors. One could equally argue I should have verified the new injectors on the old blower before trying them out on the 2.8. Water under the bridge. Should probably change the fuel filter as well in case the additional fuel flow has forced crap through or ruptured the filter medium inside. It is the original filter afterall (41K miles). I know...flame suit on.
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
Eric,
you could try starting your car and listen for the misfire. Then start disconnecting the injector connectors one at a time while its idling and listen for changes. If there is no change, then you know that injector is not firing correctly.
Also, how are your O2 sensors? Slow reacting sensors can cause random misfiring, and not show up as bad.
NO NO NO NO NO!!!! Don't do that. It will burnout the Vec control board!!
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
why?
you can do it on the stock PCM
eric, you can get to the connectors if you have thin fingers
KNG SNKE
Enthusiast
The VEC will be no good if you pull injector plugs while it is on. This is a long standing issue with it.
Sneaky Pete
Enthusiast
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why?
you can do it on the stock PCM
eric, you can get to the connectors if you have thin fingers
I think you just answered your own question.
HollywoodGTS
Enthusiast
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Wow that *****... So if you have a bad connector it will cook the unit?
I say and advise that each person do what they want. I hate tuing, but like Bottlefed, I think that maybe Davenport in Calgary could tune the car if it was a standard AEM. I don't think that they have done any tuning with a vec 2. That would mean that the only good tuners I know that are "close" would be Eddie Martin and Dan Cragin here in the west. Somwhere around 1800 miles. I just left eddie martin's shop, but I have the Paxton GTS I just bought - not my Roe car.
Paxton runs fine, but it's only a 600rwhp car without the Nitrous on so it needs Nitrous to keep up to my Roe. I have 9-1 Ross pistons in my Roe car and am planning on the 2.8L blower as soon as Sean (or someone else) gets a close enough tune to send me a card and then fine tune myself.
I emailed an outfit called Gen 3 Motorsports (?) and he said that he already did this upgrade and it was easy to tune and works like perfect (AEM I think).
I emailed Larry Macedo and Sean Roe and they don't foresee any problems and Sean is in the middle of developing the "everycar tune" and testing out different injectors for us. Since, apparently the boost goes up 2-4psi with the blower upgrade, the injector selection might be important as different injectors operate differently under different boost levels. Mopar Performance had to develop special injectors to run their Super 60 kit on the old Turbo 2.2s to get them making over 300rwhp because of the 18psi boost levels.
I'm in complete agreement with Bottlefed and Ellow on DIY. Although there are guys (Eddie, Sean, Larry Dan & Dan) I think that is all the tuners that I would let work on my cars without standing over their shoulders. As far as the majority of mechanics out there ... I don't trust most of them to change my oil without my supervision. There are enthusaists out there (like 1badgts) that are full of really BAD advice that could ruin a good Viper. Since he's never pulled a head off a Viper or probably ever seeen a Dodge piston he shouldn't give any advice to anyone because he hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.
Ellow and Bottlefed do their own work, like I do. Obviously, they know what they're doing. They know themselves and their capabilities best and are doing their own work for a lot of different reasons. Pride, gaining knowledge, achievement, utilizing the knowledge they've already acquired over many years of starvation, cutting corners and thousands of cut fingers and bent knuckles working on every other car they have. Bet their neighbors all respect their knowledge and wisdom. One important thing is that guys like Dan (Viper Specialties) Larry Macedo and Sean Roe are extremely helpful with their knowledge and share it with people they feel are intelligent enough to learn from it. Much as I thought those guys were rich, they're not. None of them are rich and that makes supporting them extra important.
When Ellow and Bottlefed call Sean for advice on injectors they also share with Sean (who shares with all the other tuners) the info on their injectors, tunes etc. Ellow, Bottlefed and many others expand all the tuners knowledge base a little each time.
This Viper community supports each other and our RECOMMENDED tuners support the club and it's members.
Ted
Paxton runs fine, but it's only a 600rwhp car without the Nitrous on so it needs Nitrous to keep up to my Roe. I have 9-1 Ross pistons in my Roe car and am planning on the 2.8L blower as soon as Sean (or someone else) gets a close enough tune to send me a card and then fine tune myself.
I emailed an outfit called Gen 3 Motorsports (?) and he said that he already did this upgrade and it was easy to tune and works like perfect (AEM I think).
I emailed Larry Macedo and Sean Roe and they don't foresee any problems and Sean is in the middle of developing the "everycar tune" and testing out different injectors for us. Since, apparently the boost goes up 2-4psi with the blower upgrade, the injector selection might be important as different injectors operate differently under different boost levels. Mopar Performance had to develop special injectors to run their Super 60 kit on the old Turbo 2.2s to get them making over 300rwhp because of the 18psi boost levels.
I'm in complete agreement with Bottlefed and Ellow on DIY. Although there are guys (Eddie, Sean, Larry Dan & Dan) I think that is all the tuners that I would let work on my cars without standing over their shoulders. As far as the majority of mechanics out there ... I don't trust most of them to change my oil without my supervision. There are enthusaists out there (like 1badgts) that are full of really BAD advice that could ruin a good Viper. Since he's never pulled a head off a Viper or probably ever seeen a Dodge piston he shouldn't give any advice to anyone because he hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.
Ellow and Bottlefed do their own work, like I do. Obviously, they know what they're doing. They know themselves and their capabilities best and are doing their own work for a lot of different reasons. Pride, gaining knowledge, achievement, utilizing the knowledge they've already acquired over many years of starvation, cutting corners and thousands of cut fingers and bent knuckles working on every other car they have. Bet their neighbors all respect their knowledge and wisdom. One important thing is that guys like Dan (Viper Specialties) Larry Macedo and Sean Roe are extremely helpful with their knowledge and share it with people they feel are intelligent enough to learn from it. Much as I thought those guys were rich, they're not. None of them are rich and that makes supporting them extra important.
When Ellow and Bottlefed call Sean for advice on injectors they also share with Sean (who shares with all the other tuners) the info on their injectors, tunes etc. Ellow, Bottlefed and many others expand all the tuners knowledge base a little each time.
This Viper community supports each other and our RECOMMENDED tuners support the club and it's members.
Ted
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
I don't think I've come across this info before. I've never had the problems you are right now. I guess that is another good reason to change out your injector clips when you do the VEC.
Well, I guess you could pull the plug wires one by one and it would tell you the same thing (as long this doesn't kill the VEC too
)This whole project is really getting me thinking about doing this... soon
Though, I may go SCT, as Sean has mentioned.
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
Thanks Ted,
Any time I do my tuning for myself (or others), I'm in close contact with Sean. He is a great resource and one of the reasons I decided to keep my Roe setup. You just can't seem to get the honest, in depth help from the Paxton tuners.
I have learned so much from doing all the work myself (no one had touched my car other than me in the past 2.5 years that I have owned it); I plan to keep it that way.
I give my opinions from personal experience, either with these cars or my previous work. I don't like to take the advise of those on herecough: 1badgts :cough: ) that have never even changed their own spark plugs.
So when people get on here with no experience with what they speak, and then only tell you to do what they do (take it to a tuner), it really ticks me off. There are occasions where the person asking the advice is in way over his head, but most of the time people are asking because they want to learn to do it themselves, not to ask where to get it done.
Any time I do my tuning for myself (or others), I'm in close contact with Sean. He is a great resource and one of the reasons I decided to keep my Roe setup. You just can't seem to get the honest, in depth help from the Paxton tuners.
I have learned so much from doing all the work myself (no one had touched my car other than me in the past 2.5 years that I have owned it); I plan to keep it that way.
I give my opinions from personal experience, either with these cars or my previous work. I don't like to take the advise of those on here
cough: 1badgts :cough: ) that have never even changed their own spark plugs. So when people get on here with no experience with what they speak, and then only tell you to do what they do (take it to a tuner), it really ticks me off. There are occasions where the person asking the advice is in way over his head, but most of the time people are asking because they want to learn to do it themselves, not to ask where to get it done.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
So what oil should I run in my Viper or is changing spark plugs hard to do? What tires should I put on my car?
ANYWAYS...compression test came out OK. Had a scare on one...came up at 70PSI...and then I did it again after taking the tester off and reinstalling it. Came out 145. Whew... #8 plug was really fouled and it only had a couple of miles on it. Me thinks injectors at this point. I'll be curious as to what Tony will report in a few days. SCT tune will be sweet in a few months after the "tuners" including Jack B continue to explore/discover...but wait...shouldn't they know everything about anything all the time? I'll be out of contact Fri/Sat/Sun. Camping with my 7 year old son. Real important "man" stuff. THis car stuff is just a hobbie of sorts. Fun, but just a hobbie.
ANYWAYS...compression test came out OK. Had a scare on one...came up at 70PSI...and then I did it again after taking the tester off and reinstalling it. Came out 145. Whew... #8 plug was really fouled and it only had a couple of miles on it. Me thinks injectors at this point. I'll be curious as to what Tony will report in a few days. SCT tune will be sweet in a few months after the "tuners" including Jack B continue to explore/discover...but wait...shouldn't they know everything about anything all the time? I'll be out of contact Fri/Sat/Sun. Camping with my 7 year old son. Real important "man" stuff. THis car stuff is just a hobbie of sorts. Fun, but just a hobbie.
uvbnbit
Enthusiast
So what oil should I run in my Viper-Motor or
is changing spark plugs hard to do?-No
What tires should I put on my car?- Actually, you have to put them on the wheels first,
Maybe you should check with your tuner if any doubts. Seriously though, I'm enjoying the heck out of your determination/boldness, etc. Very interesting thread!
-Chip
is changing spark plugs hard to do?-No
What tires should I put on my car?- Actually, you have to put them on the wheels first,
Maybe you should check with your tuner if any doubts. Seriously though, I'm enjoying the heck out of your determination/boldness, etc. Very interesting thread!
-Chip
Let's not misconstrue the recommendations that are coming forth. First of all, I commend EllowViper for taking it on himself.
Secondly, I am very near Joe Donovan at PBJ, who happens to be one of the best Viper tuners ever to slide a card into a VEC. I have personally seen him safely pick up 20, 30 sometimes 40 or more hp out of cars that have already been tuned by other well known tuners, much less someone who did it themselves.
My recommendation to take it to a tuner was with this^ in mind, in order to see what the new blower is capable of producing. Not to mention the fact that Joe D and others would probably already have a good idea where to start on a base tune.
I do turn some of my own wrenches, but when I want the most power possible or if I have a malfunction that could grenade my motor I'm taking my car to a tuner. The recommendations made here are based on each person's individual experiences. That doesn't mean those recommendations are stupid or wrong.
Ellow asked for advice and he's getting it. Its up to him to decide what to take and what to leave.
In the end, I hope it runs safe, strong and makes big power.
Secondly, I am very near Joe Donovan at PBJ, who happens to be one of the best Viper tuners ever to slide a card into a VEC. I have personally seen him safely pick up 20, 30 sometimes 40 or more hp out of cars that have already been tuned by other well known tuners, much less someone who did it themselves.
My recommendation to take it to a tuner was with this^ in mind, in order to see what the new blower is capable of producing. Not to mention the fact that Joe D and others would probably already have a good idea where to start on a base tune.
I do turn some of my own wrenches, but when I want the most power possible or if I have a malfunction that could grenade my motor I'm taking my car to a tuner. The recommendations made here are based on each person's individual experiences. That doesn't mean those recommendations are stupid or wrong.
Ellow asked for advice and he's getting it. Its up to him to decide what to take and what to leave.
In the end, I hope it runs safe, strong and makes big power.
MTGTS
Enthusiast
Let's not misconstrue the recommendations that are coming forth. First of all, I commend EllowViper for taking it on himself.
Secondly, I am very near Joe Donovan at PBJ, who happens to be one of the best Viper tuners ever to slide a card into a VEC. I have personally seen him safely pick up 20, 30 sometimes 40 or more hp out of cars that have already been tuned by other well known tuners, much less someone who did it themselves.
My recommendation to take it to a tuner was with this^ in mind, in order to see what the new blower is capable of producing. Not to mention the fact that Joe D and others would probably already have a good idea where to start on a base tune.
I do turn some of my own wrenches, but when I want the most power possible or if I have a malfunction that could grenade my motor I'm taking my car to a tuner. The recommendations made here are based on each person's individual experiences. That doesn't mean those recommendations are stupid or wrong.
Ellow asked for advice and he's getting it. Its up to him to decide what to take and what to leave.
In the end, I hope it runs safe, strong and makes big power.
Well put. I do most of my own work and love doing it. But, there are some things that I won't attempt to do and should be left to the people with YEARS of experience. Tuning my expensive motor is one of those things.
I could probably pull my own tooth....
But I prefer to go to a licensed, experienced dentist. One that has all the latest tools, education and equipment.
That's just me....
Seriously....
Every one has their "Comfort level" for working on their own cars. Some are "comfortable" doing more than others. Nothing wrong with either mindset.... IMO.
ELLOW is still in his "comfort zone". I doubt he would purposely try to damage his car.
Good Luck Eric.
We're watching....
But I prefer to go to a licensed, experienced dentist. One that has all the latest tools, education and equipment.
That's just me....
Seriously....
Every one has their "Comfort level" for working on their own cars. Some are "comfortable" doing more than others. Nothing wrong with either mindset.... IMO.
ELLOW is still in his "comfort zone". I doubt he would purposely try to damage his car.
Good Luck Eric.
We're watching....
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Too much like my old man I guess. Dad's a Veterinarian...and he has done minor surgeries on himself...but not on us kids (that I am aware of)... Upset Mom since she wanted him to go to the "Doc" to get the issues taken care of (she's a Vet too). At the end of the day "A Man's Got To Know His Limitations."
Martin
Enthusiast
As long as it's still fun and interesting, no reason to not do stuff on your own. These days, it takes getting my mind right, but once that happens and I get fully engaged in a project, a project like this would be really fun. Messing with all the variables around tuning a modern engine can be a kick - it's kind of like playing chess against the car.
KNG SNKE
Enthusiast
This is a perfectly good thread and I am betting onebadgts shows up because you had to mention his name. You realize when he logs on he searches his name to see if anyone is talking smack about his right?
Whats the update Ellow? Ready for you to be local again and throw some tuning to my toy.
Whats the update Ellow? Ready for you to be local again and throw some tuning to my toy
.Joseph Dell
Enthusiast
For anyone who wants to learn to tune: The math isn't that hard. Download the AEM software. Even if you don't have an AEM. Included in the full documentation that comes with the AEM software is a great manual called AEM EFI Basics. While some of it is AEM specific, it is a most excellent overview of how to tune a car. Read it. Know it. Love it.
Tuning cars on low boost is easy. And since fuel consumption is linear, tuning cars on high boost is also easy. The difference is that your margin for error (ie: cyl 9 and 10 being too rich, or 1+2 being too lean) is smaller with a higher boost motor.
But there is no need to fear.
Now go tune!
Tuning cars on low boost is easy. And since fuel consumption is linear, tuning cars on high boost is also easy. The difference is that your margin for error (ie: cyl 9 and 10 being too rich, or 1+2 being too lean) is smaller with a higher boost motor.
But there is no need to fear.
Now go tune!
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
Thanks JD
I'm not saying you guys are wrong for not tuning or working on your own cars. But if you are going to go that route, you don't have the right to tell those that do want to, how to do it.
I'm not saying you guys are wrong for not tuning or working on your own cars. But if you are going to go that route, you don't have the right to tell those that do want to, how to do it.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Waiting to hear from Tony on the injectors. Hopefully he'll be able to confirm my suspicions.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Different twist to this storyline. The gentleman in AZ that bought the old 2.4 blower from me sent me these. Just finished replacing his old 2.2 for the 2.4 upgrade. Kinda makes me feel a bit sentimental! His boost went up by 4 psi on the same pulley his 2.2 was using. Just kind of an interesting FYI event. As far as progress on my install, Tony just got the injectors and will dive into those shortly.
Attachments
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
Any update Ellow?
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Funny. In the Apple Store at the mall and I thought I'd check the VCA. Currently waiting for a solid roller cam to install. Got all my other upgrades done, but still waiting for the cam builder to get back to me...gotta run. THe salesman is here!!
