KNG SNKE
Enthusiast
Now that is dedication! Checking the VCA in the Apple Store!
Kenne Bell 2.8H Upgrade
- Thread starter EllowViper
- Start date
Now that is dedication! Checking the VCA in the Apple Store!
Russ M
Enthusiast
Im fairly sure that he is the one looking for a rod on the Alley, don't think the tuning went well.
KNG SNKE
Enthusiast
Don't think he's tuned. He is waiting for a valvetrain from GG i recall correctly.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
If you recall, I was puttering around town in between tuning sessions and for whatever reason, the motor would run fine for awhile and then start missing/dropping a cylinder. Initially I thought the three step colder plugs were acting up and/or one of the new "never used before" Siemens injectors was messed up. Changed plugs, did comp test and drove it around again. No improvements with hotter plugs. It would run OK for awhile and then drop the one cylinder (#8). Leaving a stop light under light accelleration, I had a BIG backfire (or so I thought) so I popped the hood and didn't see anything out of the ordinary. This had happened a year or so ago as well and at that time discovered I had simply left the VEC MAP line off at that time. Not the case this time...so I fired it up and it ran fine the rest of the way home. Pulled the plugs and #8 was fouled. Did a comp test and #8 was dead. Pulled the head and the gasket was blown. Pulled the piston and the rod was bent. Had Tony Armour go through all the injectors and they came back OK...so potentially some issue with the VEC I'm thinking. All the pistons/rings look great, no signs of detonation or lean running and the burn was very even across all the cylinders. Piston on #8 looked OK but ordered a replacement anyways. Pulled all the pistons and will re-ring w new bearings. Rod bearings looked great too. Head is OK. So now I'm getting a solid roller cam cut as well as some other enhancements. Fuel system upgrade too. Just weird as to the big detonation I had coming off idle. Need to figure that out before I head out again!! The timing was actually pretty tame as compared to what Bottlefed is posting plus I was simply coming off idle from a stop light in closed loop. Don't know what to make of it. Timing light indicated good spark at idle on all 10...running ABs wires. I do know the VEC PWM trigger was acting up (not coming on from time to time) so my suspicions is that the VEC burped or something. Excited about the new cam though...GG custom spec that Comp Cams is making for me.
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
He had Diamond replacements all along.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Yup. All forged already. The only time I have seen anything like this is when I reworked an inboard/outboard marine engine that had injected water and bent several rods...hydro locked is the term. Not sure if the #8 injector was acting up and dumped enough fuel to hydro lock the cylinder. Anyone ever hear of an injector going loco and doing that? I think it would require alot of fuel to do that. Either way, not real confident in the #8 injector circuit so I'll have to get the VEC checked out and verify some other wiring and harness connections. Do not want a repeat of that detonation! It was LOUD. Big puff of smoke from under the passenger side of the hood so I knew something was not right. But it started up fine afterwards and I gingerly headed home. Imagine my surprise when I pulled the plug and checked the compression. CRAP. With the forces involved, funny it didn't blow the plug right out of the head. I've seen that in outboard and snowmobile motors. But I can now laugh about it since I was getting so much heat for street tuning myself and yet this happens (which I do not equate to a DIY tuning issue). Gotta love how easy this engine is to work on. I think I had it all torn down in under 4 hrs.
Ouch, that *****!
I'm having issues with the connector on my Vec and it sounds like you are as well. I wiggle the connector while the engine is running and it'll change rpms. I have having a couple thousand connectors in each car. Larry Macedo (M2) was telling me that instead of having to order a special connector tool, a paperclip will remove the terminals so that I can tighten each one and check that the wire is still attached properly.
Ted
I'm having issues with the connector on my Vec and it sounds like you are as well. I wiggle the connector while the engine is running and it'll change rpms. I have having a couple thousand connectors in each car. Larry Macedo (M2) was telling me that instead of having to order a special connector tool, a paperclip will remove the terminals so that I can tighten each one and check that the wire is still attached properly.
Ted
eucharistos
Enthusiast
a model for good attitude
i'd have pulled all my hair out by now
i'd have pulled all my hair out by now
EllowViper
Enthusiast
VEC connectors...Hummm. Mine was cycling RPM a bit strangly as well. It has been over four years since it was last gone through and it does get really hot to the touch under the hood. Not the most ruggedized machinery either and has been open to the elements/gotten wet a few times. It is a VEC-II so the technology is a bit dated as compared to the smaller/more modular VEC-III. I'd rather have one of the tuners actually crack the code on the SCT for boosted applications. I know they are getting close, but most are still using the VEC for injector scaling purposes with the SCT for engine management. With everything else I have going on, doing the R&D on the SCT and a ROE is just too much overhead for me right now. The VEC IMO is the current poor man's way out. Works good enough but with my new cam and injector layout, I may not be able to get it to run right without a corresponding SCT tune on the PCM. We'll have to see. I am a stickler for a well tuned engine. I really do not like compromises on that end of the spectrum...thus my constant tinkering with tuning and trying different things.
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
I'm seriously thinking of playing with the SCT.
I think by the end of the summer I'll have one on my car and be learning the new system.
And just as I'm getting used to the VEC! lol
I think by the end of the summer I'll have one on my car and be learning the new system.
And just as I'm getting used to the VEC! lol
I spoke to Dan at Viper Specialties about the SCT and he said that it should be done, but the Vec 2/3 MUST stay in the loop for the Water/**** and boost so the only advantage (at least the way I understood it was the millisecond hesitation at tip in. You'd need the $1,000 kit so that you can log the info and email it to Dan so he can help you tune it (3 times). Otherwise, get someone to SCTune the ECU. The tuner could remove the rear oxy sensor program and after removing the "misfire" CEL program you could use the 2001/2002 ECU - which is faster). I have the 96 ECU in my car because of the misfire codes that keep popping up with my 01 ECU. Then go back to tuning the Vec.
I hope I wrote this correctly as this is the way I understood it.
Ted
I hope I wrote this correctly as this is the way I understood it.
Ted
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
I thought JackB figured out the injector offset so he could eliminate the VEC totally?
and the w/m can be controlled by other means
and there is no boost control needed on a s/c
and the w/m can be controlled by other means
and there is no boost control needed on a s/c
That would be news to me. Yes another few hundred bucks could buy a MSD timing retard control (I have one in the cupboard) and another few hundred could buy a watermth boost referenced controller. But the ECU doesn't read above atmosphere so the ecu still needs a boost reference to control the fuel above atmospheric pressure. - At least that's the way I understood what Dan was telling me. ECU plus Vec.
I may have misunderstood or there may have been new info since last fall? Dan did say that I had to keep the Vec.
Ted
MTGTS
Enthusiast
Ellow, you know SCT is based over here in Orlando/Longwood. I'm sure you could call them up and arrange to get on their dyno if needed. They could prob get it all setup.
LittleVinnie
Enthusiast
Reading through this,
there are no references to the secondary Air temps ?
Your kit does not have an intercooler, correct.
Your using Methanol correct?
Methanol [ when used with a screw type charger ] at this point is really for the high octane to help with detonation.
No matter what you shoot through the KB, its gonna surely heat things up negating any type of cooling effect the mix would have had. I am poster child for methanol injection. I believe in it, and have been using it in all types of street cars for 10 years.
Where I am going with this is, If your spinning the KB close to 15k rpm, the secondary air temps are gonna HAUNT you to no end.
I have seen secondary air temps close to 400F on screw chargers with no intercoolers, regardless of the vehicle.
Here is a different way to think about it, so stick with me here till I finish. I’m sure by now I have many people off their rocking chairs just wanting to chime in.
I'M ON YOUR SIDE HERE AND WANT TO HELP. Please don’t think I’m messing with you.
I have a 97 GTS and am tuning with the SCT racer package and LOVE IT !
Base your boost level off of what your secondary air temps are doing "without" the methanol.
Start off at 5 psi if necessary, then slowly increase boost levels paying attention to the air temps.
The Max air temp I would run on a street car is 200F
Then add your methanol, and continue tuning. Do not add anymore boost, regardless if its 5 psi or 10 psi.
Get the SCT "Pro Racer package" so you can really tune the car.
Dyno's have their place in life, but a true street car needs datalogging and tuning on the street.
there are simply too many variables that can not be reproduced on a dyno in a limited amount of time.
Stop-n-go traffic, use of A/C etc.
Especially since your gonna change your camshaft too.
The Siemens #60's are a reliable injector, just don’t run more than 70psi of fuel pressure. I have seen a few "Lock up" @ 75psi
[but that’s another thread]
I like the AEM methanol kit, the controller is simple with a start and finish dials based off of pressure.
The SCT will take care of the rest.
Ill stop here as I can imagine the replies im gonna get.
I’ve tried to cover a lot in this post.
Probably too much.
The point I’m trying to get across here is, Check your secondary air temps, this is what your fighting and have to manage for your setup to work correctly.
ENJOY!
Vince
there are no references to the secondary Air temps ?
Your kit does not have an intercooler, correct.
Your using Methanol correct?
Methanol [ when used with a screw type charger ] at this point is really for the high octane to help with detonation.
No matter what you shoot through the KB, its gonna surely heat things up negating any type of cooling effect the mix would have had. I am poster child for methanol injection. I believe in it, and have been using it in all types of street cars for 10 years.
Where I am going with this is, If your spinning the KB close to 15k rpm, the secondary air temps are gonna HAUNT you to no end.
I have seen secondary air temps close to 400F on screw chargers with no intercoolers, regardless of the vehicle.
Here is a different way to think about it, so stick with me here till I finish. I’m sure by now I have many people off their rocking chairs just wanting to chime in.
I'M ON YOUR SIDE HERE AND WANT TO HELP. Please don’t think I’m messing with you.
I have a 97 GTS and am tuning with the SCT racer package and LOVE IT !
Base your boost level off of what your secondary air temps are doing "without" the methanol.
Start off at 5 psi if necessary, then slowly increase boost levels paying attention to the air temps.
The Max air temp I would run on a street car is 200F
Then add your methanol, and continue tuning. Do not add anymore boost, regardless if its 5 psi or 10 psi.
Get the SCT "Pro Racer package" so you can really tune the car.
Dyno's have their place in life, but a true street car needs datalogging and tuning on the street.
there are simply too many variables that can not be reproduced on a dyno in a limited amount of time.
Stop-n-go traffic, use of A/C etc.
Especially since your gonna change your camshaft too.
The Siemens #60's are a reliable injector, just don’t run more than 70psi of fuel pressure. I have seen a few "Lock up" @ 75psi
[but that’s another thread]
I like the AEM methanol kit, the controller is simple with a start and finish dials based off of pressure.
The SCT will take care of the rest.
Ill stop here as I can imagine the replies im gonna get.
I’ve tried to cover a lot in this post.
Probably too much.
The point I’m trying to get across here is, Check your secondary air temps, this is what your fighting and have to manage for your setup to work correctly.
ENJOY!
Vince
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
Well littlevinnie,
you have mentioned many of the issues we already know about with the Roe supercharger.
I think the problem with mounting the IAT in the manifold would be driveability issues off boost. The factory PCM is set to see the temps in the air box, not on top of the engine. I'm not sure how the car would react with the PCM reading it elsewhere. But it is a good thought if you have the SCT where you can adjust that. A lot of work though.
Speaking of the SCT, I'm very interested to try it out. I was just waiting to hear more on the use of it with the Roe, particularly with injector scaling to bigger injectors. It seems to be the way to go, once we get it all figured out. I just can't stand to have my car not work and not have any support available, which seems to be the case right now with the SCT. And I don't have any local help either.
I also don't want to run the VEC along side it; that just seems like a waste.
I agree that street tuning is just as important, if not more, than dyno tuning. But I'm not sure anyone was debating that on here??
You seem to know something on the subject, but you still need to read more. I wouldn't give advice from knowledge you gained from experience on another vehicle - every car is different. But bringing up discussion is a good thing and makes us all rethink our theories.
welcome to the discussion
you have mentioned many of the issues we already know about with the Roe supercharger.
I think the problem with mounting the IAT in the manifold would be driveability issues off boost. The factory PCM is set to see the temps in the air box, not on top of the engine. I'm not sure how the car would react with the PCM reading it elsewhere. But it is a good thought if you have the SCT where you can adjust that. A lot of work though.
Speaking of the SCT, I'm very interested to try it out. I was just waiting to hear more on the use of it with the Roe, particularly with injector scaling to bigger injectors. It seems to be the way to go, once we get it all figured out. I just can't stand to have my car not work and not have any support available, which seems to be the case right now with the SCT. And I don't have any local help either.
I also don't want to run the VEC along side it; that just seems like a waste.
I agree that street tuning is just as important, if not more, than dyno tuning. But I'm not sure anyone was debating that on here??
You seem to know something on the subject, but you still need to read more. I wouldn't give advice from knowledge you gained from experience on another vehicle - every car is different. But bringing up discussion is a good thing and makes us all rethink our theories.
welcome to the discussion
LittleVinnie
Enthusiast
It is correct that I’m not familiar with the ROE kit on the viper.
However I've been building and tuning cars for many years
Makes sense why he has no air temp readings. Obviously Roe does not relocate the Air temp sensor, or do they ?
Here is the factory Viper ACT corrections. [ from my 97 GTS ] different year models will vary, most likely not by much.
MAP_torr
296 395 494 593 691 787
deg_c
-40 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
-20 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
20 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
40 0 0 0 -2 -2 -1.5 -1
60 0 0 -1.5 -2.5 -2.5 -2.5 -2
70 0 0 -2 -3 -3 -3 -2.5
80 0 0 -2.5 -3.5 -3.5 -3.5 -2.5
90 0 0 -3 -4 -3 -3.5 -2
The first column is the Air temp reading in C
and left to right is Map readings.
So moving your AIT to the manifold will allow you some timing retard part throttle & beyond when you most need it.
[the bigger picture is go have some sort of tuning software , obviously., I’m just adding to the conversation ]
I have a friend with a Roe charger kit on his Viper truck.
I will be tuning it, but not sure when ---
cause it has a rod hanging out the side of the block.
OUCH!
Yes it was detonating !
WE ordered the racer package for it, but temptation got to him and he just couldn’t lay off the throttle.................
Adjusting for injector changes is very simple with the software.
You would not need the VEC,
I also must add, that I have no experience with the VEC.
Never was in the position to use one, so I don’t have a clue as to what it does.
Vince
However I've been building and tuning cars for many years
Makes sense why he has no air temp readings. Obviously Roe does not relocate the Air temp sensor, or do they ?
Here is the factory Viper ACT corrections. [ from my 97 GTS ] different year models will vary, most likely not by much.
MAP_torr
296 395 494 593 691 787
deg_c
-40 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
-20 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
20 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
40 0 0 0 -2 -2 -1.5 -1
60 0 0 -1.5 -2.5 -2.5 -2.5 -2
70 0 0 -2 -3 -3 -3 -2.5
80 0 0 -2.5 -3.5 -3.5 -3.5 -2.5
90 0 0 -3 -4 -3 -3.5 -2
The first column is the Air temp reading in C
and left to right is Map readings.
So moving your AIT to the manifold will allow you some timing retard part throttle & beyond when you most need it.
[the bigger picture is go have some sort of tuning software , obviously., I’m just adding to the conversation ]
I have a friend with a Roe charger kit on his Viper truck.
I will be tuning it, but not sure when ---
cause it has a rod hanging out the side of the block.
OUCH!Yes it was detonating !
WE ordered the racer package for it, but temptation got to him and he just couldn’t lay off the throttle.................
Adjusting for injector changes is very simple with the software.
You would not need the VEC,
I also must add, that I have no experience with the VEC.
Never was in the position to use one, so I don’t have a clue as to what it does.
Vince
EllowViper
Enthusiast
I believe I discussed relocating the IAT sensor into the ROE manifold with Sean a few years ago (I actually have a **** drilled for it already but plugged off). If I recall, he did not recommend doing this due to the wide (and rapidly changing) temps the sensor would be reading and that the PCM/sensor was not designed to respond to those rapid and dynamic changes. Driveability would **** from what he told me. At least that is what I recall from the discussion. Again, I believe he felt it was much easier to tune to a relatively stable AIT from a PCM-chasing-IAT perspective. Also if I recall, each PSI of boost increases temp by 10 degrees. SO 15 PSI of boost automatically adds 150 degrees to the intake charge...add the heat soak and other factors and yes, one quickly gets into assinine levels of intake air charge temps. It would be good to be able to measure the IAT after the blower and W/M just to see what the real temps are. I'm always curious about stuff like that....
VIPER BAZ UK
Enthusiast
Thought SCT was available already for blown cars???????
KNG SNKE
Enthusiast
To my knowledge it is not available. I tried to go this route last October before I installed the supercharger. When I started asking around no one had done a sct tune for the viper yet.
VIPER BAZ UK
Enthusiast
May be soon then........
britospeed
Enthusiast
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You can tune boosted apps with the SCT. The catch is that you will loose resolution. But it has been done on many dodge platforms already.
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
your friend must be very trusting and also likes to spend lots of $$It is correct that I’m not familiar with the ROE kit on the viper.
I have a friend with a Roe charger kit on his Viper truck.
I will be tuning it, but not sure when ---
cause it has a rod hanging out the side of the block.
Vince
j/k
One of the main purposes of the 2.8 blower upgrade is moving up from the 2.4 = lower air temps and higher hp at the same boost as the 2.4L blower.
I just bought an AEM to try and get a good tune.
- the closest I've been able to understand from reading on these forums is that the SCT works with boost on Gen3s. ie. Sean roe's TT kit.
Ted
I just bought an AEM to try and get a good tune.
- the closest I've been able to understand from reading on these forums is that the SCT works with boost on Gen3s. ie. Sean roe's TT kit.
Ted
VIPER BAZ UK
Enthusiast
Did it arrive Ted??????
LittleVinnie
Enthusiast
Relocating the IAT is the way to go, then of course tune it.
But if your relying on the stock tune, i would still relocate it,
Most its gonna do is pull 3-4 deg mid to full throttle as the air temp will always be in the hot range.
You can Tune with SCT.
NO, there are no starter maps, you basically start with your stock configuration and work from there, so you must understand the process and have datalogging equipment. Wideband etc.
If anyone is close to Baton Rouge, Id be glad to show you how it works.
The part that ***** is, Dodge ECM,, whether on the Viper down to the Dakota R/T has probably 1/3 of the scalars that Ford and GM have.
Then too , they are Mass Air, but it would be nice. Even the tranny controls are very limited.
Now, Tuning under boost you are limited to scalars as the factory ECU does not recognize boost. You will basically be tuning by RPM.
Limited, but better than nothing. and it works better than trying to piggyback.
BOTTLEFED,
Trusting in who ? Roe ?
guess he was,
I did not install the kit, someone else did,
I just looked into it after they could NOT get it running correctly.
Thats when I told him to "STOP".
Well, it wasnt a week later when he called me crying.
RTTTTed,
Which AEM
Sport 1000, 2000 ?
Vince
But if your relying on the stock tune, i would still relocate it,
Most its gonna do is pull 3-4 deg mid to full throttle as the air temp will always be in the hot range.
You can Tune with SCT.
NO, there are no starter maps, you basically start with your stock configuration and work from there, so you must understand the process and have datalogging equipment. Wideband etc.
If anyone is close to Baton Rouge, Id be glad to show you how it works.
The part that ***** is, Dodge ECM,, whether on the Viper down to the Dakota R/T has probably 1/3 of the scalars that Ford and GM have.
Then too , they are Mass Air, but it would be nice. Even the tranny controls are very limited.
Now, Tuning under boost you are limited to scalars as the factory ECU does not recognize boost. You will basically be tuning by RPM.
Limited, but better than nothing. and it works better than trying to piggyback.
BOTTLEFED,
Trusting in who ? Roe ?
guess he was,
I did not install the kit, someone else did,
I just looked into it after they could NOT get it running correctly.
Thats when I told him to "STOP".
Well, it wasnt a week later when he called me crying.
RTTTTed,
Which AEM
Sport 1000, 2000 ?
Vince
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
I think Eric already answered this above. Sean said it causes running issues. But if you are still confident in your theory, then test it and let us know. I would be curious to hear the results as well.
I was talking about his faith in you since you have no experience with the Roe kit
